Page 105 discussion

[icekatze]

hi hi

I fail to see how the seat is unsuitable for a 5 point harness. There are uses for 5 point harnesses other than race cars, and in fact, that exact setup has been used in military vehicles, from helicopters to jeeps, without any head restraints.

[Sweforce]

Is that a 5-point harness she's puting him in?
How? That seat is obviosly not suitable for such a harness. What's more, if there's a possible need of restraining the body with such a harness you'd also need a HANS device (restricting the movement of the head, acts like an airbag. Or even better - a Hybrid head restraint, as this one also secures head during a side-to-side motion), unless the Loroi have insanely tough neck muscles.

I assume Loroi pelvis is built differently and thus they don't use a 6-point harness instead.

Or Arioch thought it would look weird if the seat belt was the same design as humans use. Sometimes you need a reminder that aliens think differently.

The shuttle got inertial dampers, if there isn't a risk they may fail they shouldn't need any seatbelts at all. The dampeners could be less then 100% effective thou and a massive G force are then reduced to a smaller, bearable one. That would still allow for a simpler belt.

I just noticed that it is Tempo that tell Alex that the shuttle got inertial dampeners while it is Beryl who strap him in. I can understand that there may be a need to keep the dampeners off during launch from the Tempest shuttlebay only a simple belt would be required. This tells me that A: Alex are strapped up to prevent him from moving around (they have treated him as a prisoner so far) or B: They expect a rough start that may disable the inertial dampeners, supporting the shuttle hijacking theory. Another possibility is that they need to flee the Tempest during an ongoing battle and just keep their cool to not worry Alex to avoid having a panicking prisoner to deal with.

For those that wonder where the straps are I imagine that they are hidden in the seat in the crack between the two dark grey areas in middle of the seat. I guess that the top one can flip open to expose a compartment there. That is an awkward way to do it so those straps are probably used only rarely and probably never during normal operation of the shuttle. It is also possible that there isn't any straps in the seat at all and the loroi armour have an anchorpoint somewhere that hook them into the seat. Non armour wearing persons like Alex and Shoegirl will instead need to wear an harness providing the anchorpoint to the seat.

[rewik]

Or Arioch thought it would look weird if the seat belt was the same design as humans use. Sometimes you need a reminder that aliens think differently.

But they are using the same design as humans use. Had they not used the harness at all, I'd have no objections - I'd assume the inertial dampers would take care of the job. But now that they're securing him into the seat, a number of questions crop up.

I fail to see how the seat is unsuitable for a 5 point harness. There are uses for 5 point harnesses other than race cars, and in fact, that exact setup has been used in military vehicles, from helicopters to jeeps, without any head restraints.

The seat is quite long, and there is no opening for mounting the groin strap. It would have to be mounted roughly in the middle of the seat to perform its function. Otherwise instead of preventing submarining (sliding out of the harness) it would damage your pelvis, as your body would gain momentum before impacting upon it.
Another problem comes with the soulder straps - they appear to be straight, which is generally a bad plan, as it may allow them to slide off the shoulders. Shoulder straps in cars require a special seat with proper guiding openings (and the straps themselves cross behind the seat, so your left strap is mounted behind you on your right), and the shoulder straps on planes usually are just a single strap, looped around near the neck to prevent this (they tend to cling to the neck)

I admit the HANS/Hybrid device might be unnecessary if the expected acceleration/deceleration values will be reasonably small. Still, from what I see, the setup would be inefficient even at keeping the occupant secured in the seat regardless of species.

[Karst45]

but more likely a surprise action by Umiak or someone else to capture and board the shuttle.

i doubt they will be ambushed any time soon. I mean it a 5 minute ride between 2 shuttle. considering the acceleration of the shuttle (20G) and the deceleration. The undocking and docking procedure. The two ship must be within point defence range. Unless there some kind of invisibility/Cloaking Technology that exist. chance of them being attacked is low to non existant.

[dragoongfa]

5 hours and 20 minutes actually (which is what 19200 Solon should translate to).

In order for a boarding action and/or unfortunate accident to happen in space one will either need cloaking or the full cooperation of the entire fleet.

[Karst45]

Another possibility is that they need to flee the Tempest during an ongoing battle and just keep their cool to not worry Alex to avoid having a panicking prisoner to deal with.

Havent tought about that one. This is quite plausible. would also explain why Talon is the pilot. An ex fighter pilot now piloting a shuttle.... (yes we haven seen her yet but i remember Arioch telling about this once.

[Karst45]

5 hours and 20 minutes actually (which is what 19200 Solon should translate to).

In order for a boarding action and/or unfortunate accident to happen in space one will either need cloaking or the full cooperation of the entire fleet.

you right sorry misscalculated that

[icekatze]

hi hi

Perhaps the Umiak are currently accelerating to overtake the fleet while the Loroi are being forced to maintain a steady trajectory for the jump, and Stillstorm is planning on turning part of the fleet around in order to screen for the outgoing ships. Who knows? I'm sure we'll get a glimpse of what is going on eventually.

[Arioch]

Head restraints and air bags are designed to prevent injury from sudden deceleration in a front-end crash; you don't see such things in aircraft, where the goal of the restraints is just to keep you in your seat in the event of small accelerations in any direction. For the rest, it's a pretty standard 5-point harness as is used in race cars and military aircraft (that don't have an ejection seat). The groin strap is attached to the back of the seat cushion and comes up from under the body, so there is no issue of the pelvis sliding forward.

5 hours and 20 minutes actually (which is what 19200 Solon should translate to).

It's closer to 6 hours. The solon is longer than a second (1.092 seconds, to be precise).

[dragoongfa]

5 hours and 20 minutes actually (which is what 19200 Solon should translate to).

It's closer to 6 hours. The solon is longer than a second (1.092 seconds, to be precise).

So 5 hours and 49 minutes; which means that Alex will be caught between Beryl's curiosity and Tempo's agenda for that long while suffering from an empty stomach and lack of proper sleep.

I would hide behind Fireblade for some peace and quiet but that joke earlier has surely pissed the Teidar off. If only there was a curious shuttle pilot to distract Alex from whatever ails him.

[Count Casimir]

Good ol' Alex, alienating all the people close to him (get it, "alienating")

If anything happens to their intended escape ship, maybe hopefully they'll hitch a ride on Black Razor.

[RedDwarfIV]

Or Arioch thought it would look weird if the seat belt was the same design as humans use. Sometimes you need a reminder that aliens think differently.

But they are using the same design as humans use. Had they not used the harness at all, I'd have no objections - I'd assume the inertial dampers would take care of the job. But now that they're securing him into the seat, a number of questions crop up.

Source? Page 6 shows the Bellarmine's bridge bunnies having no seatbelts at all.

[Arioch]

A large vessel doesn't need seatbelts; the inertial dampers can handle any planned change in acceleration, and any unplanned change in acceleration will be very minor due to the mass of the ship. A kinetic impact that could alter the momentum of a million ton starship enough to throw you out of your seat would do catastrophic damage to the hull. The same is not true for a ~300 ton shuttle that could experience all manner of bumps on its way out of the hangar, to say nothing of reentering atmosphere. Hence the seat belts on the shuttle.

[RedDwarfIV]

A large vessel doesn't need seatbelts; the inertial dampers can handle any planned change in acceleration, and any unplanned change in acceleration will be very minor due to the mass of the ship. A kinetic impact that could alter the momentum of a million ton starship enough to throw you out of your seat would do catastrophic damage to the hull. The same is not true for a ~300 ton shuttle that could experience all manner of bumps on its way out of the hangar, to say nothing of reentering atmosphere. Hence the seat belts on the shuttle.

Bellarmine couldn't have been much more than 20,000 tonnes. Why no bridge bunny bench bindings? They were at action stations.

[Sweforce]

couldn't have been much more than 20,000 tonnes. Why no bridge bunny bench bindings? They were at action stations.

The Bennet class chief designer is sold on an ancient TV series called Star Trek?

[Arioch]

Bellarmine couldn't have been much more than 20,000 tonnes. Why no bridge bunny bench bindings? They were at action stations.

I'm not sure where you're getting the 20,000 ton figure from, but let's take that as an example. A 20,000 ton corvette outweighs a 300 ton shuttle by a factor of six two orders of magnitude. A bump that wouldn't even unseat you from such a 20,000 ton ship could be potentially lethal in a 300 ton shuttle.

Comparing starships with small craft doesn't make much more sense than comparing fighters with carriers.

[Sweforce]

It is interesting that the shuttle is filled with seats when it is configured for cargo. I though it was configured for short range trips for crew rotation. That is, some of Tempest crew get rotated of, to less dangerous assignments or even some R&R for a while. Like in how most normal militarizes do, even in wartime as much as possible to combat battle fatigue. Well actually , it is possible that "cargo" configuration" mean that they didn't bother to finish a passenger conversion and only throw in the seats for the crew rotation thing since it was only for a short trip to a meeting convoy. As such, Alex may have to pee in a bottle.

[RedDwarfIV]

Bellarmine couldn't have been much more than 20,000 tonnes. Why no bridge bunny bench bindings? They were at action stations.

I'm not sure where you're getting the 20,000 ton figure from, but let's take that as an example. A 20,000 ton corvette outweighs a 300 ton shuttle by a factor of two orders of magnitude. A bump that wouldn't even unseat you from such a 20,000 ton ship could be potentially lethal in a 300 ton shuttle.

Comparing starships with small craft doesn't make much more sense than comparing fighters with carriers.

I once compared spacecraft to seacraft and I'm pretty sure you said spacecraft were heavier. So I took the mass of a seacraft of similar length, doubled it, and did not assume that was the actual mass, just a guess. Insider doesn't give the masses.

My point was, Bellarmine probably would shake around a lot if hit, because it's not a million ton starship. When hit by the Plasma Focus, Alex was thrown off his feet. But still no seatbelts.

[dragoongfa]

It is interesting that the shuttle is filled with seats when it is configured for cargo. I though it was configured for short range trips for crew rotation. That is, some of Tempest crew get rotated of, to less dangerous assignments or even some R&R for a while. Like in how most normal militarizes do, even in wartime as much as possible to combat battle fatigue. Well actually , it is possible that "cargo" configuration" mean that they didn't bother to finish a passenger conversion and only throw in the seats for the crew rotation thing since it was only for a short trip to a meeting convoy. As such, Alex may have to pee in a bottle.

I think that the difference between the configurations Tempo alludes to is between a first class passenger plane and a dual role cargo plane.

Stillstorm is for all intents and purposes a high ranking Torrai and an influential one at that, even if at odds with the Emperor. That allows for some benefits and privileges, what we imagine as a military passenger shuttle is a sturdy and relatively austere vessel tasked with carrying a large number of personnel quickly and safely. Generals and Admirals are expected to use such transportation during wartime without making any fuss about it because for us a warrior's life is full of austerity.

Loroi are different however, they are a society in which the warrior castes have enhanced privileges and the higher one's caste and rank is the more privileges one has. It should be common for a Torrai Lashret to have a personal shuttle, it is a high status symbol, allows for easy transportation between ships/stations/planets for inspections/official visits and provides an excellent craft for a flag transfer when the command ship is unable to perform the functions of a flagship (i.e. when it is about to blow). Human admirals and even fleet admirals wouldn't have this perk and would rely on the standard shuttles of a ship to go about their business (provided that the fleets of the future follow current and most past trends).

Now let's take things to the next logical level and consider the possibility that the various Torrai's that have such personal shuttles have the right and leisure to equip and decorate them as they please without suffering any short of backlash. The amenities that Tempo alludes to could as well be the Loroi equivalent of first class seating and various other extravagant items that only the Torrai Lashret and her closest confidantes would indulge into.

If this is the case then Stillstorm chose to treat her personal shuttle as just an other fleet asset (unlike other Torrai's of similar rank) and converted it into a passenger and cargo runner instead of just using it as some short of limo.

[JQBogus]

I once compared spacecraft to seacraft and I'm pretty sure you said spacecraft were heavier. So I took the mass of a seacraft of similar length, doubled it, and did not assume that was the actual mass, just a guess. Insider doesn't give the masses.

Another way to do it : Scale down from one of the other ships in the insider where mass is given.

Example : Vortex II (tempest) is 1200kt, and 750m long. Bellarmine was 190m long. A proportional Vortex 190m long would mass 1200kt * (190m/750m)^3 = 19.51 kt.

A different route to much the same answer.