Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

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Bamax
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Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

Post by Bamax »

    Type A Fuel: I know it is as powerful as AM but easier to handle (does not react with all kinds of matter by blowing up) but what state of matter is it stored as? Solid? Liquid? Gas? Plasma? I presume liquid, only because it is the most dense below solids to condense fuel.

    Is it stored as as chemical or molten metal (molten metals are liquid just really hot).


    Getting to orbit: Arioch said orbital construction is how Loroi fleets are built.

    Now I spend plenty of time on KSP website and I have learned this fron members.

    1. Chemical thrust is limited, so if you wanted to launch up something as heavy as a WWII battleship into orbit it is always more efficient to send up with multiple launches piece by piece and then assembe them together in orbit.

    Otherwise you would have the odd scenario of reusable boosters exhausting most of their propellant and landing a mere few feet from the ground as rest of the staging and the superheavy spacecraft slowly climbed upward.


    2. Trying to launch heavy with super fuels IRL runs into the problem of either blowing up your reaction chamber and ship with too much energy (reason why project orion is external rather than internal propulsion) or it forces you to launch really big (bigger reaction chamber that won't overheat) which at some point will negate the thrust advantage from weight alone.


    Conclusion: IRL the fastest to way to launch a space fleet is to launch all the pieces separately in one go via multiple launches occurring simultaneously, with orbital rendezvous and assembly of spacecraft parts to form entire spaceships occuring in orbit.


    I presume that is the basis for Loroi and umiak space fleets? Complemented by supplies being shipped in orbitally from nearby moon basesand other spaceships etc?

    3. The sad thing about SSTO's IRL is they really cannot get very heavy or big without being nearly all fuel tank. It's not like Star Wars at all.

    In fact the easiest way to use less fuel is to make use of the atmosphere via air breathing rocketry and ram/scram jet your way into space with a few rocket insertion burns.

    Thus puts tremendous heat on the hull as you must reach near orbital speeds in the upper atmosphere for it to work.

    Demarquis
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    Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

    Post by Demarquis »

    Don't the Loroi have space elevators?

    Bamax
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    Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

    Post by Bamax »

    Demarquis wrote:
    Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:52 am
    Don't the Loroi have space elevators?

    They had one of note on Seren but we both know what happened over there... how many more exist must be few or not as good... especially sense the one on Seren was called a wonder like it was special.

    Elsewhere on the interwebs this was said:



    Any exotic energy source that is so volatile and spreads lots of radiation might not be suitable for in-atmosphere use.



    Larry Niven solved that problem by using ultra-compressed (to nearly solid form) Helium as propellant and save the nasty stuff for the vacuum of space.


    Me: Interesting that Arioch did say type A may be like hydrogen or helium... apparently helium can exist as a solid.

    Still won't be OP like type A fuel but would definitely increase your mileage on a rocket burn.


    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/12 ... mal-solid/

    G. Janssen
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    Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

    Post by G. Janssen »

    Demarquis wrote:
    Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:52 am
    Don't the Loroi have space elevators?
    They're for freight only.
    People were allowed to use them in the beginning, but they kept going insane after having to listen to elevator music for 6 hours straight.
    And then there was this one time that it got stuck halfway and it took the fire department 30 days of climbing stairs to reach the cabin. The only one alive was the Nissek ambassador who suvived by eating the corpses of the other passengers.
    Last edited by G. Janssen on Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

    avatar576
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    Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

    Post by avatar576 »

    Bamax wrote:
    Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:32 am
      Type A Fuel: I know it is as powerful as AM but easier to handle (does not react with all kinds of matter by blowing up) but what state of matter is it stored as? Solid? Liquid? Gas? Plasma? I presume liquid, only because it is the most dense below solids to condense fuel. Is it stored as as chemical or molten metal (molten metals are liquid just really hot).
      I'm not familiar with the term "Type A Fuel" as it applies to space travel or rocketry. Google search turned up nothing useful for me. But energy density is the key, no matter what type of fuel you use. You could have a gaseous propellant if, and only if, it is of sufficiently high energy density to get you where you need to go. That means, pound for pound, it must provide several orders of magnitude more thrust than liquid or solid propellant, if you wanted to have a lift vehicle of similar size as a solid- or liquid-fueled rocket. Otherwise, you'd need a gigantic lift vehicle more than a mile high.

      Bamax wrote:
      Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:32 am
      Getting to orbit: Arioch said orbital construction is how Loroi fleets are built.

      Now I spend plenty of time on KSP website and I have learned this fron members.

      1. Chemical thrust is limited, so if you wanted to launch up something as heavy as a WWII battleship into orbit it is always more efficient to send up with multiple launches piece by piece and then assembe them together in orbit.
      Weight is not the only issue. Volume and cross sectional area are equally as important. Send up a WWII battleship on a rocket and you'll only end up with a few pieces making it to orbit. The rest will break off or burn up from atmospheric drag. Unless you have a ridiculously and stupidly huge payload fairing. Which brings us right back to drag...
      Bamax wrote:
      Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:32 am
      Conclusion: IRL the fastest to way to launch a space fleet is to launch all the pieces separately in one go via multiple launches occurring simultaneously, with orbital rendezvous and assembly of spacecraft parts to form entire spaceships occuring in orbit

      I presume that is the basis for Loroi and umiak space fleets? Complemented by supplies being shipped in orbitally from nearby moon basesand other spaceships etc?
      Modular construction is the way to go. Modern aircraft are assembled on an assembly line this way. Each section of the airframe is constructed separately from pre-packaged kits, and then has most of the components (avionics, hydraulics, electrical wiring, etc.) installed into each module. When the pieces arrive at the assembly line, they literally just rivet it together and plug in all the components. Most of the final assembly now is just fitting out customer-specific equipment, and installing the engines and gearbox.
      Here's the final assembly line for Black Hawk and Sea Hawk helicopters (where I used to work years ago):
      Image
      There is room for about 30 birds on the floor at a time. When they got to the last station, they rolled right off the floor and into the adjacent flight hangar for test flights.
      A Black Hawk airframe comes in just five main pieces, but it wouldn't seem too big of a stretch to scale up this method of construction to the size of a Loroi/Umiak warship assembly line, especially for the smaller frigate and destroyer classes. You've got a lot more real estate in orbit than on the ground.

      I could imagine construction being not so much all components for a ship being launched simultaneously, but rather a continuous stream of launches from multiple places that are timed and scheduled to arrive when the ship is ready for each module to be installed. For example, bridge/command center modules are assembled and launched from Site A. Weapons modules are assembled and launched from Site B, and so on.

      G. Janssen
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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by G. Janssen »

      avatar576 wrote:
      Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:09 pm
      I'm not familiar with the term "Type A Fuel" as it applies to space travel or rocketry. Google search turned up nothing useful for me.
      I found some entries about Jetfuel type A1 and a British classification calling petrol, diesel and alcohol type A fuels. But I doubt that's what Bamax means.

      I know that the first stage of the Saturn 5 used kerosine.
      I know that the V2 used enough ethanol made from 30 tonnes of potatoes.

      If type A is a fuel that doesn't go whoosh the moment it comes in contact with rubber gloves or eats its way through alumin(i)um tanks and AM is more dangerous, then I assume that A is an organic fuel like kerosine or diesel or methanol and AM is like C-Stoff, the nasty mixture of hydrazine hydrate, methanol, water and potassium tetracyanocuprate that powered the Messerschmitt 163 and did go whoosh when it came in contact with rubber gloves and ate its way through alumin(i)um.

      All these fuels were stored in their natural state: liquid.

      Solid rocket fuel is also stored in its natural state.

      Solid rocket fuel for model rockets like the fuel that was used in late WW2 air to ground rockets can easily be made by mixing molten beeswax and gunpowder. Just don't leave the beeswax inside the hot waterboiler when you add the gunpowder, otherwise you have to open the windows and the neighborhood will inform your parents about the smoke when they come back and you'll be grounded. Ah, happy childhood memories...

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      Arioch
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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Arioch »

      Taimat (a.k.a. "Type-A fuel") is stored as a supercooled liquid. The decay reaction produces some hard radiation, so it's not safe to use in atmosphere, and it's not used for getting into orbit.

      Chemical rockets won't do the job, so shuttles will need some kind of nuclear/electric powered "cold plasma thrusters" to get most things into orbit. Some will be SSTO's, and others will use multiple stages. A lot of starship components will be manufactured on the ground and assembled in orbital shipyards, but there will also be materials which benefit from being constructed in microgravity, and which will be produced on site in orbit, and some materials may be sourced from asteroid mining rather than the ground.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Bamax »

      Press any scifi creator had enough and you will find the fiction in the science fiction I guess.

      From what I know of plasma rockets, thrust is really low, it's so low that no one today has thought to use them for shipping any cargo into orbit. Cold plasma sounds nice since it is not hot, but plasma itself is very lightweight and diffuse, it's is lighter in weight than gas, since plasma is what gas becomes when it is overheated.

      Plasma is the final state of matter when you heat it to the Nth degree you get plasma.

      I know virtually nothing about cold plasma though I will admit, so I do realize you may yet again know something I don't. Or it could be a case where it just part of the plot and you really did not have to nor wished to bring much thought into that particular detail. You wanted SSTO's shuttles so had them. SImple as that.

      I can accept that.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Arioch »

      Outsider is fiction, not a prediction of the future.

      In a 'realistic' future, humanity never leaves our solar system.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Bamax »

      Arioch wrote:
      Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:46 am
      Outsider is fiction, not a prediction of the future.

      In a 'realistic' future, humanity never leaves our solar system.

      True... for now.

      I mean in theory we could do it... it would just take for-ev-er using known science.

      That's why fiction is required.


      IRL I think if or when we get scifi SSTO shuttlecraft they may use some type of pulse detonation engine... since they can be scaled up or down in speed and size well.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by gaerzi »

      G. Janssen wrote:
      Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:06 pm
      They're for freight only.
      People were allowed to use them in the beginning, but they kept going insane after having to listen to elevator music for 6 hours straight.
      And then there was this one time that it got stuck halfway and it took the fire department 30 days of climbing stairs to reach the cabin. The only one alive was the Nissek ambassador who suvived by eating the corpses of the other passengers.
      Just six hours? It could be worse.

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      Keklas Rekobah
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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Keklas Rekobah »

      Arioch wrote:
      Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 pm
      . . . Chemical rockets won't do the job, so shuttles will need some kind of nuclear/electric powered "cold plasma thrusters" to get most things into orbit. Some will be SSTO's, and others will use multiple stages. A lot of starship components will be manufactured on the ground and assembled in orbital shipyards, but there will also be materials which benefit from being constructed in microgravity, and which will be produced on site in orbit, and some materials may be sourced from asteroid mining rather than the ground.
      It seems to me that -- at the very least -- with Loroi advances in artificial gravity and inertial dampening, they would also have developed technology to neutralize planetary gravity in the immediate vicinity of a shuttle, so as to allow the centrifugal force generated by the planet's rotation to "throw" the shuttle into orbit.  Taken further, this technology could reverse the effects of planetary gravity around the shuttle, and cause it to rise into orbit under its own power.
      “Qua is the sine qua non of sine qua non qua sine qua non.” -- Attributed to many

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Bamax »

      Keklas Rekobah wrote:
      Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:58 pm
      Arioch wrote:
      Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 pm
      . . . Chemical rockets won't do the job, so shuttles will need some kind of nuclear/electric powered "cold plasma thrusters" to get most things into orbit. Some will be SSTO's, and others will use multiple stages. A lot of starship components will be manufactured on the ground and assembled in orbital shipyards, but there will also be materials which benefit from being constructed in microgravity, and which will be produced on site in orbit, and some materials may be sourced from asteroid mining rather than the ground.
      It seems to me that -- at the very least -- with Loroi advances in artificial gravity and inertial dampening, they would also have developed technology to neutralize planetary gravity in the immediate vicinity of a shuttle, so as to allow the centrifugal force generated by the planet's rotation to "throw" the shuttle into orbit.  Taken further, this technology could reverse the effects of planetary gravity around the shuttle, and cause it to rise into orbit under its own power.
      They use rocketry of some sort, I am certain they lack antigravity since Arioch said they do not on the forum.

      For what it is worth, chemical boosters do scale up well so you could in theory build some massive reusable boosters which are mostly propellant anyway so their weight would matter less. Getting combustion to combust evenly when scaled up becomes more challenging though, so for large scale rocketry pulse detonation may perhaps work better.


      As for shuttle craft like the Highland, I think with advanced magnetic field tricks they could do SSTO just fine.

      Let's be silly and presume the Highlander uses an airbreathing chemical rocket engine in the air.

      It burns through all it's propellant picking up speed to supersonic, at which point the famous Loroi defensive screena start working since at that point air begins turning to plasma around the front end of the vessel

      If they can block deflect concentrated beams of particles and plasma they can surely deflect atmospheric plasma and use it for the remaining thrusr to cruise into orbit.


      So it is just one way that fits well with Arioch's universe.

      The shuttles still have their type A for space travel but could use plain old chemical airbreating rocketry and configured Loroi screen tech to cruise into space from an atmosphere.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Bamax »

      Actually, based on what I know of Sprint missiles (the two stage solid fueled 100g rocket), that may be pefect for a Loroi shuttle.

      Just burn off the solid fuel in the lower atmosphere and engage reconfigured defense screens to deflect and channel the air plasma behind it like a rocket until it coasts into space.

      Defense screens are really awesome like that.

      Because as far as I know solid fuels provide the greatest rocket thrust but you cannot throttle them, they will just burn all their fuel until it's gone.

      You only need it to reach space, at which point you rely on taimat anyway. Plus solid fuels are dense and wont take up a lot of precioys space, which matters a lot on a manned shuttke.

      Getting back down: Without safe propellant a shuttle would have to glide back down.

      Refueling: A planetary supply base would refuel it's solid fuel fir another ascent.

      Demarquis
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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Demarquis »

      "People were allowed to use them in the beginning, but they kept going insane after having to listen to elevator music for 6 hours straight.

      Kids these days! In my day we listened to a combination of light jazz and disco for a solid month, no breaks! It builds character!

      Space elevators aren't for the weak.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Cthulhu »

      Actually, shuttles (or any other self-propelled vehicles) wouldn't be the best choice for lifting things into orbit. It simply needs too much energy that must be carried along, increasing the craft's mass. Ultra-high density fuels, however, would pose significant risks in case of malfunction or crash. Therefore, ground or orbit-assisted launches would be preferable.

      The best example would be a space elevator, or it's lesser cousin, the sky-hook. Then, as a ground-based example, a capsule could be lifted into orbit by means of a laser beam, ablating a special layer to generate propulsion.

      Shuttles could then be used on less-developed worlds, or in the case where something needs to be launched quickly and outside schedule.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Bamax »

      Cthulhu wrote:
      Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:36 pm
      Actually, shuttles (or any other self-propelled vehicles) wouldn't be the best choice for lifting things into orbit. It simply needs too much energy that must be carried along, increasing the craft's mass. Ultra-high density fuels, however, would pose significant risks in case of malfunction or crash. Therefore, ground or orbit-assisted launches would be preferable.

      The best example would be a space elevator, or it's lesser cousin, the sky-hook. Then, as a ground-based example, a capsule could be lifted into orbit by means of a laser beam, ablating a special layer to generate propulsion.

      Shuttles could then be used on less-developed worlds, or in the case where something needs to be launched quickly and outside schedule.
      You are correct.

      Skyhooks are easier to make.... and possible right now. They would beed orbital maintenence so they don't deorbit though.

      https://www.google.com/search?q=sky+hoo ... x_WFsQ6qgM

      IRL as far as I know space elevators are not possible mainly due to materals not being srong enough but Loroi have hyperdrives so makibg strong materials should be child's play.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Cthulhu »

      Bamax wrote:
      Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:01 pm
      You are correct.

      Skyhooks are easier to make.... and possible right now. They would beed orbital maintenence so they don't deorbit though.

      https://www.google.com/search?q=sky+hoo ... x_WFsQ6qgM
      A skyhook would be an immense investment, requiring cooperation from multiple space agencies. Yet, with the current issues, international cooperation on such a scale is off the table.
      Bamax wrote:
      Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:01 pm
      IRL as far as I know space elevators are not possible mainly due to materals not being srong enough but Loroi have hyperdrives so makibg strong materials should be child's play.
      Seren had an orbital elevator, so for the Loroi, those should be considered common infrastructure on well-developed worlds.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by Bamax »

      Cthulhu wrote:
      Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:31 pm
      Bamax wrote:
      Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:01 pm
      You are correct.

      Skyhooks are easier to make.... and possible right now. They would beed orbital maintenence so they don't deorbit though.

      https://www.google.com/search?q=sky+hoo ... x_WFsQ6qgM
      A skyhook would be an immense investment, requiring cooperation from multiple space agencies. Yet, with the current issues, international cooperation on such a scale is off the table.
      Bamax wrote:
      Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:01 pm
      IRL as far as I know space elevators are not possible mainly due to materals not being srong enough but Loroi have hyperdrives so makibg strong materials should be child's play.
      Seren had an orbital elevator, so for the Loroi, those should be considered common infrastructure on well-developed worlds.

      I would say that with multiple languages in play it makes it harder to have a single ruling government over all.

      The Loroi do not have that issue because.... SANZAI!

      So if anything they would have an easier time coodinating their effort and sharing information accross Loroi cultures than we ever had.

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      Re: Questions About Type A Fuel And Reaching Orbit....

      Post by gaerzi »

      Bamax wrote:
      Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:46 am
      I would say that with multiple languages in play it makes it harder to have a single ruling government over all.

      The Loroi do not have that issue because.... SANZAI!

      So if anything they would have an easier time coodinating their effort and sharing information accross Loroi cultures than we ever had.
      The loroi had their share of internecine warfare because, while most loroi leaders did agree that all loroi should be unified into a single empire, they disagreed about which one should be emperor.
      https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/loroi_timeline.html
      "Reign of Chaos period on Deinar"
      "Near-constant warfare between nations."
      "New World Conflict period on Deinar"
      "Splinter Wars: A series of civil conflicts between the 3 sister worlds"
      "civil conflict between Swiftsure and provincial governor Lazesi Neie"

      So by the time of the comic's event, it has been 365 human years since the last intra-loroi conflict. So it's a long period of peace by human standards (except for the Umiak war of course) but it shows that sanzai does not automagically bring peace and cooperation.

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