Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

[Cthulhu]

I still think it's down to the Umiak having some captured farseers that they've some how learnt how to send out reverse interference!

Then why wasn't such a useful ability already discovered? The Loroi had innumerable wars, a skill to hide troops from enemy detection would be incredibly useful. I think that there were enough attempts to invent something like that, yet nothing beyond personal lotai was ever developed. But the bugs got that almost immediately? That's too good to be true, they aren't that advanced, and had no idea about telepathy before meeting the loroi. Finally, couple all that with the most unlikely discovery of the template species, which is also coincidentally immune to telepathy. Quite suspicious....

[DevilDalek]

I still think it's down to the Umiak having some captured farseers that they've some how learnt how to send out reverse interference!

Then why wasn't such a useful ability already discovered? The Loroi had innumerable wars, a skill to hide troops from enemy detection would be incredibly useful. I think that there were enough attempts to invent something like that, yet nothing beyond personal lotai was ever developed. But the bugs got that almost immediately? That's too good to be true, they aren't that advanced, and had no idea about telepathy before meeting the loroi. Finally, couple all that with the most unlikely discovery of the template species, which is also coincidentally immune to telepathy. Quite suspicious....

How would they know if the template species was immune to psi if they were not psi themselves?
And they've had a lot longer to study captured farseers then the newly arrived humans.

[Demarquis]

"How would they know if the template species was immune to psi if they were not psi themselves?"

By testing them out on captive Loroi. But I agree that there hasn't been much time. How do you like the conspiracy theory that humanity contacted the Umiak years ago and kept it secret?

"But actually, that's what THEY want you to think! Bellarmine was an inside job!!!!"

There was no "Bellarmine"--the ship was faked.

[Cthulhu]

How would they know if the template species was immune to psi if they were not psi themselves?

They wouldn't, but if the bugs found something which is highly likely the template, they would immediately run experiments on those humans. Including trials with captured Loroi.

And they've had a lot longer to study captured farseers then the newly arrived humans.

That's what I was saying, the Loroi studied their own talents for millennia, and don't know about such abilities even in theory. Yet the Umiak, who had no idea about telepathy before meeting the Loroi, unraveled this within one or two decades?

There was no "Bellarmine"--the ship was faked.

The ship was real, it must've been real to fuel the mass media outrage about the "evil Loroi". It's the "who destroyed it", that's important. A noble sacrifice to save their species, the crew would surely understand it.

[Keklas Rekobah]

@ARIOCH: Relatively speaking, how easy is for a Farseer to detect an Umiak Mind from several AU away? How adversely does post-jump disorientation experienced by the Umiak affect detection? Do the Umiak have mind-numbing drugs to help them mitigate jump sickness? Does close proximity to a white dwarf or being inside an accretion disc have any effect on detection?

[gaerzi]

@ARIOCH: Relatively speaking, how easy is for a Farseer to detect an Umiak Mind from several AU away? How adversely does post-jump disorientation experienced by the Umiak affect detection? Do the Umiak have mind-numbing drugs to help them mitigate jump sickness? Does close proximity to a white dwarf or being inside an accretion disc have any effect on detection?

An Umiak will still be detectable by a Farseer even if it is sleeping or hibernating or anything similar, short of actually killing it. Telepathy in outsider requires that there is some sort of physical characteristic to consciousness; Farseers aren't detecting brainwaves or thought, they're detecting the physical presence of the mind.

[Arioch]

@ARIOCH: Relatively speaking, how easy is for a Farseer to detect an Umiak Mind from several AU away? How adversely does post-jump disorientation experienced by the Umiak affect detection? Do the Umiak have mind-numbing drugs to help them mitigate jump sickness? Does close proximity to a white dwarf or being inside an accretion disc have any effect on detection?

If it's only a single Umiak mind, this adds to the difficulty, but it's still something that most Farseers would be expected to do.

The Umiak do sometimes take tranquilizers to mitigate the effects of jump sickness, but this does not affect detectability; neither does being close to a white dwarf or within a dust disc.

[Keklas Rekobah]

So whatever the Klik-kliks have, it is either a sanzai-resistant species, some form of sanzai-resistant technology (likely Soia-Liron), or some blending thereof. In any case, it is likely something they do not fully understand.

[Demarquis]

"That's what I was saying, the Loroi studied their own talents for millennia, and don't know about such abilities even in theory. Yet the Umiak, who had no idea about telepathy before meeting the Loroi, unraveled this within one or two decades?"

There's another possibility: There are aliens among us, and have been for a long time. And I don't mean the Loroi.

[sdfgeoff]

Theres an interesting connection I haven't seen discussed yet. Loroi telepathy and FTL drives are:
- both FTL
- both have/are mental-physical effects

Proposal:
Loroi telepathy occurs through sub/hyperspace.

I consider it likely that the Umiak have been attempting to find better means of controlling the mental effect of a hyperspace jump, and their solution also disrupts Loroi perception.

This may also explain why Loroi are not afffected by the jumps: whatever it is that provides their telepathy can deal with whatever mental energy is inflicted by the jump.

Some problems with this explanation:
- why did the Umiak develop this tech now rather than centuries ago?
- why do humans suffer mental effects from FTL if they have no telepathic ability?
- why does Alex appear to be becoming vaguely telepathic? Is this common to all humans? Does contact with Soia-Loroi empire somehow promote this development in species?

[Demarquis]

*why did the Umiak develop this tech now rather than centuries ago?
Both sides have been developing their technology all along, only now have the Umiak progressed to the point where they understand FTL physics well enough

*why do humans suffer mental effects from FTL if they have no telepathic ability?
This isn't a problem, it supports your theory! Telepathy = no effects from FTL; No telepathy = effects

*why does Alex appear to be becoming vaguely telepathic? Is this common to all humans? Does contact with Soia-Loroi empire somehow promote this development in species?
These are indeed interesting questions, but I don't see why they are a problem with your theory. Presumably, as he develops telepathy (if he does), he will begin to escape from the effects of FTL. In fact, this makes a nice little prediction: wait and see.

We can't know how other humans might react until we see some. But it's unlikely that this applies to any other species, because so far as I know, the Loroi's other allies are not telepathic.

The Loroi can detect and even engage in limited mind-reading with several species. But this narrative is about to take a completely new direction if Alex learns to communicate back.

[MBehave]

Far Seers can be burned out... this shows that Loroi minds are sensitive and can be damaged, a Psychic bomb that emits "mental" energy on the same frequency as sapients would not just burn out Far Seers but could be used to wipe out Loroi on mass in systems.

Best way to avoid detection is by destroying the detectors... military 101.

May even explain the collapse from the Soia era.
1.Loroi were Soia and at war with another race that deployed Psychic bombs.

2.The Loroi may have been slaves/servants of the Soia and rebelled and the Soia deployed such bombs to wipe them out in the local bubble leaving only 3 worlds with surviving populations...
Or
3.Humans were the slaves of Loroi/Soia... and rebelled... and it would explain why humans have such resistance, humans that were outwardly sensitive died when Psychic bombs were deployed.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Two more possibilities have come to mind:

1. In trying to develop pharma that will diminish the symptoms of jump sickness, the Umiak may have stumbled upon a chemical substance that temporarily prevents their minds from being telepathically detected (as a side-effect).

2. On a related matter, the Loroi may have also stumbled upon a chemical substance that temporarily “dissolves” a person’s resistance to mental contact. Certainly, the Emperor (especially one who is also a Mizol) would have access to to such a substance

It seems intuitive that if one can exist, then so can the other.

[G. Janssen]

So whatever the Klik-kliks have, it is either a sanzai-resistant species, some form of sanzai-resistant technology (likely Soia-Liron), or some blending thereof. In any case, it is likely something they do not fully understand.

It went something like this (Netflix adaptation):

2: Yo Klikiklik 01, did you just blew the hell out of that unknown ship?
1: Mmh, yep. Those were Loroi.
2: They were pink and brown!
1: Obviously makeup.
2: They called themselves Humans!
1: I don't know what that means. I can call myself a Human.
2: Sigh, let's collect their corpses and bring them to Dr. Stray of the Anti-Farseer science division.
5 days later. (Say or think this in French accent)
2: Hi, Dr Stray. We discovered some new kind of Loroi and thought you would be interested.
S: Excellent! I was bored torturing the ones I have.
2: They're dead though.
S: Well, Scheisse! Let's take a look at their brains anyway.
chainsaw.wav
hammering.wav
S: Meine Herren, these creatures are not Loroi, but their brains are like drop-in replacements. Let's place a few in the amplifiers I've developed.
S: Muhahaha! MUHAHAHAHAHA!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U
S: Gentlemen! It's a succes! These new brains do the trick. I need more!
2: Well doc, according to the logs, there another ship that will be in our reach soon. It should enter the Steppes anytime.
S: Excellent! Send the fleet! Let's find that ship and collect the corpses. And let's place the new lotai projectors on the ships to test them.
10 days later. (in French accent)
Meanwhile, in Naam...
C: Is that a battle? It looks like StarWars(tm)!
X: Yes, captain. All those beams and death rays in every color of the rainbow either indicate a space battle, or a space gay pride.
C: Let's have some tea, no. 1.
O: Ship 850 km away, captain! Detecting an energy spike!
C: Firing at us during tea time? How uncivili-ACK!
S: How many brains did we get before Tempest interrupted us?
2: About 20.
S: Scheisse! Gotta collect them all! Well, I've tortured enough Loroi to know Stillstorm. I'll send her a nice message to piss her off. You'll see that she puts them on a shuttle.
S: And as you can see, Meine Herren, my lotai projectors worked flawlessly!
applause.wav
2: Something smells around here though.
S: Yes, these brains are beginning to go bad, so we must hurry. Let's gather the fleets using the projectors and attack. Meanwhile I will follow Tempest. Yeehaw!
2: Yeehaw!
7 days later. (in French accent)
B: One more jump to Azimol, Alex.
Suddenly, bugs everywhere!

And that's roughly where we are now.

[Demarquis]

Vera', vera' nice.

[Keklas Rekobah]

 
I really hate to think that Cloud would have ended up as a brain-in-a-box just to support the Umiak war effort against her will.

GURPS Psionics has a chapter that leads off with a graphic description of the "boxing" process.

[DevilDalek]

They could just hide behind a really big tree.

[Sweforce]

The Umiak have so little respect for their own lives and individuality that perhaps they by a few adjustments can convert themselves into living automatons to achive the mental individuality of a computer. The end result of considering yourself as a "thing" rather then a person.

[D-503]

Sry for necroposting, burt this thread is far to important (and good!) to pass!

When i stumbled over the timeline in the insider i noticed the fall of the Soia empire was obviously within a very short span of time, roughly 275.000 years ago.
On earth that was the time of the middle pleistocene, when earth was inhabited by various "sorts" of homo erectii, eg the homo heidelbergiensis.
Maybe thats the origin of the Loroi as well - the Soia stumbled over earths neat little critters with their ability to use their hands, and thought they´d be a good platform for genetic engineering; giving them more mental abilities, possibly (or by accident?!) even psionic ones. (Which then led to the Soias quick downfall, but this should be not the topic here and now...)

Then while surfing through this thread i found this:

The Umiak had only a few decades to experiment upon captives, and I doubt that they found something which the Loroi overlooked.

But this could be absolutely the case!

First: Loroi only knew Soia-Liron species, and their farseers could detect them after they made use of the first artifacts they discovered on their first interplanetary mission.
The Umiak are detectable in the same way, but if they are no descendants of the Soia-Liron species that was "just" coincidence.
Now the Umiak found out, WHAT zhe Loroi were detecing when they "sense" other minds.
Since detection is not restricted to speed of light it has nothing to do with "our" space-dimension. It´s something sub- or hyperspace, and my thesis is that it is even NOT DIRECTLY detecting minds, but rather their "impact" on the "fabric" or "grid" of that dimension.
So it has nothing to do with frequencies or other "physical stuff" - "normal" Loroi can sense other minds when in sight or near.
But those devices that Farseers either wear (like Fireblades amplifier) or are strapped into are mere "machinery" that "translates" far away minds´ impact on the fabric from sub-/hyperspace to the individual Farseer in this dimension.

So to come back to the quoted above i read somewhere else in the discussions (IIRC stated by Arioch himself) that the Loroi actually do not fully understand how these artifacts really work. They just use them as they found them, or they were able to sort of copy them without "getting to the bottom" of their true nature.

Second: Another hint for this is imo their relatively slow technlogical progress: Tech wise, the Loroi ain´t no overlords. It´s imprinted in their culture, and their usually long lives also contribute to a mere conservative approach to any sort of progress.
It took them ~425 years from early industrialization to their first artificial satellite.
Compare that to mankinds <250y.
And then another 300 years to their first interplanetary mission.
Compare that to mankinds twelve years from Sputnik to moon. And maybe another 12 or so years, if they´d maintained momentum until early missions to Mars, like those von Braun postulated in 1973.

And even if we assume faster earthlike Loroi progress in science - on earth brilliant minds also got caught up in dead ends! Einsteins (in)famous dismissal of quantum mechanics ("Gott würfelt nicht!") is one example of many.


--> So yes, the Loroi missed something (because they didn´t look thoroughly into it since there was no reason to do so), and the Umiak found it.
They had enough time and enough captives from Seren to do (gruesome) experiments, they had an outside/alternative approach to the problem, and maybe they even additionally found something in their historic/tech/biological/whatever databases that was useful in this case, too.

And Alex´ lotai? Well, we humans have a (slightly) different impact on that fabric or grid than any other species the Loroi had run into so far. And they cannot detect that like they detect all others - our advantage imo, since the Loroi cannot leave us to the Umiak.
But after a possible victory over the Umiak also maybe/surely a huge danger for us...

[Mk_C]

My suspicion was that Umiak have lobotomized their crews to the point where they can no longer be detected by Loroi farseers, but still can perform their shipbound duties at least somewhat - as they had a plenty of opportunities to experiment with Loroi captives to see what works and what doesn't, and that would also give Alex a much more believable chance of outsmarting the Umiak fleets in combat, which seems as his likely future role in the plot: Umiak tactics are not exactly sophisticated already, and with Gatecrasher fleets being crewed by literal lobotomites it would be easy to outsmart them. But then our Agent 27 seemed very much lucid and un-lobotomized when he contacted Tempest - even if he is the only one, the Farseer could probably use even his solitary head to at least somewhat position his gang in the cloud, especially since he's not lightyears away. And then there's the issue of our Valiant Boarding Crёw and even trancing Alex plainly perceiving the Umiak crew of the boarded Krooza (which was a part of the Gatecrasher force that evidently surprised 57th and therefore Tempest's Farseer). So their jinxing of Farseers is plainly dissimilar to Humaniti Lotai - Tempest's Farseer cold not see the Bella and they can't sanzai-detect Alex in person, while Umiak have sanzai-invisible ships but individually can be sanzai-detected in person. So it seems to be something applied to the ships, rather that the crew - the individual Umiak are masked by some outwards-directed contraption, rather than have their signatures removed at the source. This also rules out drugs, and Mr. 27 rules out stasis. So it has to be some tech, possibly the one recovered from incursion into Historian space, or novel-developed.