Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Here's the thing, the Soia had to construct the Loroi genetic template from the grounds up. They had to, for the simple reason that Soia-Liron species use their own biochemistry. So every bit of the Lorois genetic performance had to be planned and implemented by the Soia. None of it can have been from humans as our bodies don't work at their temperature. A bodies processes are fine tuned to each other and changes such as would be necessary to reach the Loroi form are fundamental. Even if the Soia directly took human DNA or living humans and changed them into Loroi, that process would still have needed to change everything about the way a human body works, effectively treating the human used in the process as living clay. So the Soia did not take a human brain and added telepathy, they built a brain from scratch that included those abilities.
Indeed. But this does not contradict my point in any way.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
So the Soia did not take a human brain and added telepathy, they built a brain from scratch that included those abilities.
In human image and likeness!
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
That tells us nothing. Every sapient species in Outsider seems to have "the full range of human cognitive capabilities", Lotai excluded.
Forum Digest: Barsam
Line 14-15, the last sentence of the first paragraph wrote:
Barsam are famous for lacking a sense of humor, and are earnestly serious at all times.
Contrast:
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Their telepathy is definitely instinctual, as that's how senses work. What is directed by higher functions however is active sending. I'm not sure how instinctual that is, but Loroi seem to send some stuff at all times, even as newborn.So it seems to be more like language in that regard.
Exactly.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Also, Fireblade and her berserk state seem to hint that telekinetics is also to a degree instinctual.
That's emotional trauma, my man.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Which all doesn't really matter, as dude, wtf, telepathy is a direct example for how a Lorois brain is different to a humans.
Of course - just as I outlined.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
You can not claim similarity from skull shape alone.
But I can from the way they smile.
Mk_C wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:05 pm
That's a lot of ifs and assumptions that would need to be shown in studies.
Have mercy, I don't want to spend all weekend on sci-hub.
Mk_C wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:05 pm
Sexual attraction is based on hormonal reactions. The brain produces a lot of our hormones. Biochemistry most definitely matters. We don't even know if a Lorois brain tissue is comparable to a humans.
Sexual attraction in humans is not
based on hormonal reactions. It is
based on cerebral processes, which in turn trigger, among other things, hormonal responses - many of which can affect cerebral processes in turn. But what we're working with here is the original trigger - we don't care much about what and how happens down the line as long as it works, and judging by blu boytoy performance hell yeah it works. Picture it this way - I'm pointing out how the spark plugs on an M4A1 Sherman's Continental R975-C4 engine are virtually the same as those on a Wright R-975-E3 engine mounted on a Curtis F9C biplane. You're pointing out that they have completely different cooling systems and throttle control, and FFS one's a tank the other's a biplane - I'm in turn pointing out that "yeah, but the spark plugs are probably the same, it's the same engine tuned for two different vehicles and, while they got different cooling and cylinder heads and shit, there was no need to change the spark plugs".
Mk_C wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:05 pm
But let's say that a Loroi brain does have an inherited reaction to high heels and thus produces hormones at their sight. That still doesn't mean that these hormones will then affect the body in a similar way to a human.
Their hormones are Loroi hormones and seem to work fine once the ball is rolling, we're figuring out
what gets the ball rolling.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
It really is not. It depends on the selectors. If they don't change, 300.000 years will see little evolution. If they change suddenly, one will see rapid genetic shifts, too.
No matter the selectors - a rapid shift in the environment (aka "a bottleneck event") will not introduce new forms. Those require divergence, and that takes time. What it can do is cut-off a great deal of forms that do not fit the new environment and leave only those that do. We have a psychrophile petunia, a thermophile petunia and a mesophile petunia - Ice Age hits and we're left with with the psychrophile one. It shifts the genepool to the psychrophile form being the only one prevalent, but it requires that
first this psychrophile form emerged from an ancestral one. The components of evolution:
1. Variance, the material.
2. Natural selection, the mechanism.
You need both for evolution to happen. No matter how strong are your selectors, the evolution cannot happen faster than genetic divergence processes generate variance.
So if we assume that HHGR (or any other human-like trait) was present in the prototype Loroi, it would first require that a form lacking that trait diverges from the prototype, and then you need:
A. A strong selector that eliminates the forms possessing the trait of interest, this being a case of directional selection.
B. A strong selector that eliminates the forms possessing or lacking some other trait, and those that survive just so happen to lack the trait of interest, this being a case of a founder effect, itself a kind of genetic drift.
C. A host of selectors that eliminate these or those and all kinds of forms possessing all kinds of traits, and as they do the dice land in a way that the trait in question just randomly happens to frequently coincide with traits that are getting eliminated. That would be regular genetic drift.
As far as we know Loroi did not have A, B, or C. So, your point about evolution kinda doesn't stick.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
The Ice Age, the black plaque, the Mongols, the Bantu expansion across Sub Saharan Africa, which took only two thousand years and saw the male Bantu genes displace most other black African Y-Chromosomes. Just look at the Americas, within a few centuries, the genetic landscape completely shifted.
Not really, in fact it didn't change for shit aside from some drift - and really, really,
really minor drift compared to what early human populations experienced. We're not gaining any traits and we're not losing any - we're having some frequency of occurrence for some of them change a bit. Genetic evolution kinda hits a tarpit once civilization starts to really happen. The mechanism of evolution pretyy much shifts into the neutral of genetic drift. Even if/when, say, ginger hair or blue eyes hit a critical of occurrence - the trait will not be lost, it will be widely spread across the population in recessive state, and will be inherited further with typical frequency, and with some minor chance will keep emerging from among fitting parents, and can only be really eliminated from the population with random drift with extremely low chance.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Now imagine the new selectors the early Loroi must have been under with their changed rate of reproduction, their superior immune system, the fact that their gender roles were reversed and their telepathy.
As far as it seems, they were not under a significant pressure of any selection through their history aside from usual the stabilizing selection - considering that Teidar traits are quite hereditary and stupendously advantageous, and yet they are still nowhere near dominant in the pool.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Social selection is also selection. Makes no difference.
Makes all the difference, as social selection in a civilization context gives very little shit about pretty much all genetic traits. Nurtured and circumstantial, largely non-hereditary traits start to run the show.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Nothing says that half their haplotypes need to be in males.
The definition of haplotype does.
Haplotype is
an alleles set that is inherited from a single parent. Loroi are diploid organisms with a single cycle sexual reproduction limiting haplophase to gametes. Every Loroi got a half of her genotype from his or her mommy, and the other half from his or her daddy. One haplotype from the left, one from the right.
Every conceived Loroi child gets a pick of half the genotype from one part of the population, and a pick of the other half from a different part of the population. It can't pick both halves from the more numerous and varied part.
Consider:
A hypothetical stable population of 1000 Loroi. 900 are females, 100 are males. Every new child will get half of her genotype from one of 900 females, and the other half from one of 100 males.
At any moment in time, a full half of the variance that the next generation will inherit exists only in those 100 males. Whether they have 9000 females instead, or 90000, or 900000 - every newborn in the next generation will still be half somebody from the Lucky Hundred. Half the variance is
hard bottlenecked by the number of males which can contain it. However varied is the mums half, the dads half will remain lower in variance. Now, someone who missed their biology classes might say:
Someone definitely who missed their classes wrote:But comrade Emm Kay See, we have to look at the further generations! Most of the genotype is autosomal anyhow, so the new boys will inherit a shitton of variance from their moms, and variance will be restored!
At which point we say - sure, the g2 100 boys will be half their moms. But it will only be 100 of those 900 moms. And the other half is still only 100 dads. While the new generation of girls to match these g2 will
also be half the 100 of g1 boys, and however much crossingover their autosomes get gets, there is only 50% normal chance for every piece of autosomal material that g3 inherits g1♀ material from g2 females, the other 50% chance is that it will be the same g1♂ material, while g1♀ material goes into the void. And this process repeats itself in every generation. The variance present in more numerous female part of the population is continuously lost to the drift with every generation, until it stabilizes at values somewhat higher than what 100 contains - it is
soft bottlenecked by the number of male ancestors. A stable population with this kind of generation process and sex ratio inevitably possesses lower variance than a stable population of the same numbers with the same generation process and a 1:1 ratio. And variance is the material of evolution.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
That claim makes no sense with the sex ratio of the Loroi. Terrestrial species rarely have the same mutation rates between sexes. In humans males were stronger selected against than women, for example and thus a lower number of males have bred in the past.
And that does not concern the point made at all.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
We don't even know whether Loroi have a genetic attraction to high heels.
Yeah, we assume that from the possibility provided by earlier points - that's how a hypothesis works.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
We do know of bottlenecks, though. Also, don't underestimate the chances of loss. If the Loroi females don't make use of high heels because they have no riding animals or because high heels are simply not in use, then such a trait would not come into play positively.
Good thing that neutral traits are more likely to be preserved in the populace than lost. And in case you get confused and bring up what I explained earlier about the allelic loss caused by the sex ratio 'capping the haplotypes - this process leads to the loss of
variance, not immediate loss of
traits. If the presence of the trait is a part of the diversity, along with it's presence, it might be lost in the process. But the whole point is howe this set-up limits the likelihood of emergent diversity in which both presence and absence of the trait are observed.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
The tradeoffs for that gene however could very well affect the carrying males and females.
Why would it have tradeoffs? Does it have any tradeoffs now, in us, who happen to possess it?
And thus we end the section on Genetics 101, and their lessons that were never learned.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
You're postulating
*proposing from a reasonable basis.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
a congruent
*convergent
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
trait in two species that don't even share the same genetic tree, man.
Loroi don't
have a conventional phylogenetic tree.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
You do this based on little more than similar skull shapes
And, you know, similar everything else.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
and your self admitted paraphilia for f**t.
I beg your pardon! That would be self admitted paraphilia for most things about Loroi girls the way Arioch draws them. It's just one minor detail tragically absent from the rich vein we enjoy. Be live me - if not for the Talon pinup, I would go for zettai ryouiki and G-d be my witness I would dig up the publications to make that insertion look kinda-sorta-plausible. If not, I would fucking write and publish them myself.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
It wasn't repackaged. It was rewritten.
Irrelevant as far as content goes.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Besides, even if the genetic information is completely identical, a different biochemistry means a different effect of the information.
Not effect - pathway of effects.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
It wasn't repackaged.
It isn't identical though, as human DNA is coded for proteins that work optimal at our body temperature. So at a minimum all the proteins and enzymes in a Lorois body need to be different, which has to be coded into whatever they use for DNA. Since changes in the DNA can have effects elsewhere in the organism, such drastic changes will by their nature require massive genetic rewrites.
Indeed, and in the end result there is no chance that they can still have lactating tiddies after all these extensive rewrites /s. Think, Werra, think!
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
No. Let's say you are a programmer and see a clever program. You then write a program like that, just in a more efficient language and improve upon the original idea as well. You don't need to look at the original script to do any of that. The end result could be two completely different programs, script wise.
They would be very similar programs algorithms-wise, information content-wise. You do notice that you literally said that saying the same thing in another
language is to fundamentally say a completely unrelated thing?
This kinda makes me remember how programmers who contractually receive access to certain proprietary closed-source code are contractually forbidden from writing any code for similar products and purposes for any different employer for a number of years, regardless of language and the environment used. Because Microsoft considers the algorithmic structure of their code that is recognized and learned by their programmers, and might be utilized consciously or subconsciously in the competitor products, as their intellectual property.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
The Soia likely did look at the genetics of humans, yet how much of that they used is questionable.
They used what mattered of what was written regardless of how it was written.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
The only relation we currently know for certain between man and Loroi is in the design of the outward appearance.
And cognition. And behaviour. Parts that actually matter to the subject.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
A similarity that so far seems to be limited to Caucasians
Wah?
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
How do we know this? We simply don't. Also, it's extremely common for aliens to be able to receive Loroi sending. Alex getting a dose of Fireblades dreams only shows that the human Lotai isn't as perfect as we were made to believe. We'll know more in a few pages, but so far we can't be sure yet
What we do know is that this is most likely not how sending normally works.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Have you considered that Fireblade succesfully sending to Alex without touching him can also hint at a unique weakness of humans to resist Loroi sending and not at a human talent for telepathy?
Yes, and it doesn't make any sense.
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
A different biochemistry means that hormones and messengers in the brain must also be different. It's a given that different chemicals in the body change the processes significantly.
Different in makeup, not in function. "Their legs are blue - therefore they are probably not for walking".
Werra wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Perfect copy? Trick question, as the copy would cease to be perfect the moment it doesn't react like me. Me, just simulated or equipped with different biochemistry? Different person as hormones and brain chemistry shape our thoughts and behaviour. The degree of separation will increase with each passed moment. You wouldn't call newborn monozygotic twins one and the same person, would you?
Not a trick question at all, considering that I never asked if the copy would be
the same person as you are. I asked, if it
would be related to you, or would it be alien, as you claimed different biochemistry makes Loroi entirely alien to humans. And as far as newborn monozygotic twins go, I would certainly never claim for them to be unrelated.
Now that's what I call a fat post that nobody will
ever read. God, it's enjoyable. I truly and honestly appreciate your involvement, Werra.