I was thinking, not every aspect of science and technology advances at the same rate. What would be the area of science and tech that humans are most advanced in?
Computers and software.
Technologies tend to have interwoven dependencies, so it's hard for one field to get very far ahead of all the others. Leonardo understood the principles of flight, but the materials science of his time was not advanced enough for him to do anything about it. In our own time, the computers and software needed to make for capable robots are becoming quite sophisticated, but the mechanical and power systems available can't provide anything that can run unplugged for more than a few hours.
I was thinking, not every aspect of science and technology advances at the same rate. What would be the area of science and tech that humans are most advanced in?
Page 155: "Your information processing systems are admittedly impressive for a civilization of such extremely poor technological advancement...". Humans are good with computers.
I suspect that humans are also pretty good theorists, as they seem to value pure research in ways the other nations don't (though I suspect the Pipolsid are the master theorists). All this is just headcanon, though.
Edit: sniped by the guy you actually wanted to hear from...
I was thinking, not every aspect of science and technology advances at the same rate. What would be the area of science and tech that humans are most advanced in?
Indeed there could be something the "primitive" humans are actually better at, scientifically or technologically. If this "something" are useful however is another matter. Mastery in Igloo building may not be that useful in interstellar wars after all.
Telepathy probably is as much a crutch as it is a gift for the Loroi. If you can extract secrets via mental methods, you might not invest as heavily in encryption, or steganography, likewise, if you could 'send' in a telephone fashion, would you develop semaphore, telegraphs, and radio? If you could sense the movements of troops at a distance, would you have the same focus on surveillance technologies, i.e. radar, optics, sensors? I'd imagine the Loroi either inherited, borrowed or stole a lot of their technology from other races, but they don't necessarily make the development of technology the central part of their doctrine but rather it is something to supplement their mental powers (i.e. amps or farseeing devices). Humans in contrast had to learn everything the hard way, alone. Backwards for now, but I'd assume we'd either trade for or just reverse engineer alien technology and make leaps and bounds to 'catch up', and have a better grasp of how to iterate on top of that.
Well, Loroi don't have the same level of abilities, there are always those who score less, and some are exceptionally gifted in telepathy en psychokinetics.
Further more, using a sensor-based surveillance systems means less need for a substantial amount of warriors guarding and on lookout duty.
Telepathy probably is as much a crutch as it is a gift for the Loroi. If you can extract secrets via mental methods, you might not invest as heavily in encryption, or steganography, likewise, if you could 'send' in a telephone fashion, would you develop semaphore, telegraphs, and radio? If you could sense the movements of troops at a distance, would you have the same focus on surveillance technologies, i.e. radar, optics, sensors? I'd imagine the Loroi either inherited, borrowed or stole a lot of their technology from other races, but they don't necessarily make the development of technology the central part of their doctrine but rather it is something to supplement their mental powers (i.e. amps or farseeing devices). Humans in contrast had to learn everything the hard way, alone. Backwards for now, but I'd assume we'd either trade for or just reverse engineer alien technology and make leaps and bounds to 'catch up', and have a better grasp of how to iterate on top of that.
Humanity might catch up to Loroi in 200-300 years if the progression levels are considered, and Alex might be alive by then.
Telepathy probably is as much a crutch as it is a gift for the Loroi. If you can extract secrets via mental methods, you might not invest as heavily in encryption, or steganography, likewise, if you could 'send' in a telephone fashion, would you develop semaphore, telegraphs, and radio? If you could sense the movements of troops at a distance, would you have the same focus on surveillance technologies, i.e. radar, optics, sensors? I'd imagine the Loroi either inherited, borrowed or stole a lot of their technology from other races, but they don't necessarily make the development of technology the central part of their doctrine but rather it is something to supplement their mental powers (i.e. amps or farseeing devices). Humans in contrast had to learn everything the hard way, alone. Backwards for now, but I'd assume we'd either trade for or just reverse engineer alien technology and make leaps and bounds to 'catch up', and have a better grasp of how to iterate on top of that.
Humanity might catch up to Loroi in 200-300 years if the progression levels are considered, and Alex might be alive by then.
Over on SB someone asked how long it would take for humanity to catch up at our natural rate of progression, and Arioch said roughly 60 years. It definitely wouldn't be centuries for us to catch up.
Further more, using a sensor-based surveillance systems means less need for a substantial amount of warriors guarding and on lookout duty.
"Man"power and menial tasks do not seem to be an issue for either the Loroi nor for the Umiak.
Both have large population growth capabilities, and especially the Umiak are more than willing to do repetitive boring work constantly, and in military organisation the ability of soldiers to stay awake during these boring night shifts is constantly tested.
Our lack of manpower in excess and our capitalistic drive to maximize profits has resulted in some extraordinary automatisation, a lot of other cultures (not only alien cultures) refused.
We had to force the Chinese and Japanese cultures to open up and thus submit to our capitalism and resulting automatisation...
Vote for Outsider on TWC: charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195
Telepathy probably is as much a crutch as it is a gift for the Loroi. If you can extract secrets via mental methods, you might not invest as heavily in encryption, or steganography, likewise, if you could 'send' in a telephone fashion, would you develop semaphore, telegraphs, and radio? If you could sense the movements of troops at a distance, would you have the same focus on surveillance technologies, i.e. radar, optics, sensors? I'd imagine the Loroi either inherited, borrowed or stole a lot of their technology from other races, but they don't necessarily make the development of technology the central part of their doctrine but rather it is something to supplement their mental powers (i.e. amps or farseeing devices). Humans in contrast had to learn everything the hard way, alone. Backwards for now, but I'd assume we'd either trade for or just reverse engineer alien technology and make leaps and bounds to 'catch up', and have a better grasp of how to iterate on top of that.
Humanity might catch up to Loroi in 200-300 years if the progression levels are considered, and Alex might be alive by then.
Over on SB someone asked how long it would take for humanity to catch up at our natural rate of progression, and Arioch said roughly 60 years. It definitely wouldn't be centuries for us to catch up.
Mankind needs to pump out some cutting edge tech from Loroi with the help of some special negotiation techniques.
Over on SB someone asked how long it would take for humanity to catch up at our natural rate of progression, and Arioch said roughly 60 years. It definitely wouldn't be centuries for us to catch up.
That's probably a very optimistic estimate if I am to judge by these two entries of the insider:
Humanity does have an extremely fast technological development but humans are still a full tech level behind both combatants in their mainline tech, a level and a half from the bleeding edge tech that they are fielding.
I have been wagering that an extra century (from the time of the comic) would be the ideal timeline of unimpeded technological development for humans to be on a true equal footing on both mainline and bleeding edge tech.
You have to take into account the capabilities within a tech level too. Even if the Loroi and Umiak only catch the first advances on the next level, and humanity manages to advance and incorporate techs at the current level of both contestants, we're still screwed.
In the event of war with either party we'd be screwed anyway, whether we're technologically on par or not. There is just no way for humanity to match Umiak or Loroi in production of war material.
Let's say we do manage to win a war against the Loroi. With the casualties Loroi are willing to absorb, that would be a Great War level of effort. Realistically, an entire generation of humans would be spend on that victory. Now what would stop the Loroi from coming back 20 or even just ten years later for round two?
Realistically, an entire generation of humans would be spend on that victory. Now what would stop the Loroi from coming back 20 or even just ten years later for round two?
Oh, any number of things. Literally too many to list all the possibilities - from internal conflict, to lack of political will, to unfavourable Bubble-wide political climate, to plain and simple absence of any practical purpose behind such a payback-conflict.
Like, you did notice that Loroi are not winning this war despite being capable to outbreed Umiak in theory? It's almost like large-scale industrialized warfare is a bit more complex than population curves. Much less hypothetical ones.
Realistically, an entire generation of humans would be spend on that victory. Now what would stop the Loroi from coming back 20 or even just ten years later for round two?
Oh, any number of things. Literally too many to list all the possibilities - from internal conflict, to lack of political will, to unfavourable Bubble-wide political climate, to plain and simple absence of any practical purpose behind such a payback-conflict.
Like, you did notice that Loroi are not winning this war despite being capable to outbreed Umiak in theory? It's almost like large-scale industrialized warfare is a bit more complex than population curves. Much less hypothetical ones.
Indeed, war isn't that simple. For one industrial capacity is arguably easy to expand provided you have the necessary time and resources to spend. Population is an other matter as well as technological development nullifies the inherent advantage of a larger population pool in warfighting, from automation, to enhanced longevity and artificial reproduction technologies.
I'm not sure about the Loroi being able to outbreed the Umiak.
The Umiak seem to be insectoid.
I fear, they can outbreed the Loroi easily.
They don't even require any soldier to return from the frontier....
A soldier pointed at its target seems to be fine if lost to them.
This war, like any tech war, will be more about "who can out-produce the other".
On Earth, where attack speed is tremendous, the only defense is fielding sufficient armies before conflict starts, you won't be able to produce much once war has begun on our tech level.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195
Like, you did notice that Loroi are not winning this war despite being capable to outbreed Umiak in theory?
What do you base that on?
absence of any practical purpose behind such a payback-conflict.
Waging a counter war upon a species that defeated you but is yet still weakened at the very least allows you to diminish a proven threat or regain what you lost.
@dragoongfa
Don't follow along with MK_C's wild theories. He'll bring up any eventuality to muddy any comparison he doesn't like. Yes, warfare is more complicated than smashing people into each other. But at some point we'll have to assume a theoretical equal footing to gauge the difference the reproductive advantage makes.
Waging a counter war upon a species that defeated you but is yet still weakened at the very least allows you to diminish a proven threat or regain what you lost.
By that measure, everything is a proven threat to the Union, and everything is up for regaining. Because the Fall happened.
@dragoongfa
Don't follow along with MK_C's wild theories. He'll bring up any eventuality to muddy any comparison he doesn't like. Yes, warfare is more complicated than smashing people into each other. But at some point we'll have to assume a theoretical equal footing to gauge the difference the reproductive advantage makes.
Word of God (Arioch) is that the Umiak already use mass artificial reproduction technologies for reproduction, mass farms where Umiak are bred 'Matrix Style'. Combined with Umiak biology being receptive of extensive cybernetics this means that the Umiak are on equal footing to the OP Loroi combo of reproduction/early maturation/telepathic training.
Arguably the best way to overcome both of the main combatants in terms of trained and capable personnel would be population expansion policies combined with a militarized slant in both the basic and high education systems during peace time; both of which would allow for a large pre existing pool of personnel to be ready to drawn upon during a potential conflict. So in short, if Humanity was to fight any of the two combatants as they are presented then they had better prepared their society for such a fight.
Word of God (Arioch) is that the Umiak already use mass artificial reproduction technologies for reproduction, mass farms where Umiak are bred 'Matrix Style'. Combined with Umiak biology being receptive of extensive cybernetics this means that the Umiak are on equal footing to the OP Loroi combo of reproduction/early maturation/telepathic training.
Arguably the best way to overcome both of the main combatants in terms of trained and capable personnel would be population expansion policies combined with a militarized slant in both the basic and high education systems during peace time; both of which would allow for a large pre existing pool of personnel to be ready to drawn upon during a potential conflict. So in short, if Humanity was to fight any of the two combatants as they are presented then they had better prepared their society for such a fight.
Yes, but also, the effort it takes humanity to equalize the reproductive advantage is effort the Loroi or Umiak don't have to spend. Thus those capacities can be spend in other fields, such as expansion, larger fleets or more research. To keep up with Loroi natural reproduction, humanity needs to eat an opportunity cost somewhere, is what I mean.
Arguably the best way to overcome both of the main combatants in terms of trained and capable personnel would be population expansion policies combined with a militarized slant in both the basic and high education systems during peace time; both of which would allow for a large pre existing pool of personnel to be ready to drawn upon during a potential conflict. So in short, if Humanity was to fight any of the two combatants as they are presented then they had better prepared their society for such a fight.
Yes, but also, the effort it takes humanity to equalize the reproductive advantage is effort the Loroi or Umiak don't have to spend. Thus those capacities can be spend in other fields, such as expansion, larger fleets or more research. To keep up with Loroi natural reproduction, humanity needs to eat an opportunity cost somewhere, is what I mean.
Policies necessary for population expansion and high education aren't a cost that don't pay for itself in the future, it's an early cost that brings a multitude of benefits later on; a larger, vibrant and highly educated population is by default a geopolitical asset by itself. The up-front costs (both on the economic and societal levels) may seem high but the returns and dividends are more than worth it; especially in an interstellar era with plenty of room to expand and build upon.
My main argument is that interstellar politics and by extension conflict in such a setting are a 'marathon' instead of a 'sprint'. The high and unimpeted reproduction rates of the Loroi and Umiak are a sprint mechanism, on peace time both are bound to have far lower population growth for internal stability reasons alone (the Loroi actually having several recession cycles due to sudden population bubbles is a testament to that). In wartime the costs are swallowed but both the Loroi and Umiak are reported to be on a knife's edge in terms of internal stability and at their limit in terms of ability to raise new 'warriors'.
Human reproduction rates on the other hand are also naturally high, not the OP levels of the Loroi and Umiak but still high, especially in peacetime. With the right policies, incentives and targeted taxation it is easy to see a return to a 'natural' ratio of 4 births per woman which would mean a doubling of the population every single generation. Combined with technological means of longevity and medical assistance human population could explode by orders of magnitude in a matter of decades. It's an upfront cost in terms of the incentives, women being retracted from the workforce and educationt but it will pay it for itself and have sizeable dividends in a single generation.
