Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Overkill Engine]

The other would be a "carbon planet"; a terrestrial world formed from a proplyd that was carbon-rich and oxygen-poor. It would be similar in structure to a terrestrial world, with a metal core and rocky mantle, but with a surface of diamonds and silicon carbides, and an atmosphere and hydrosphere (if any) of hydrocarbons. As with a cannonball, a carbon planet might be very dense and/or quite toxic, and the only proposed candidates formed around supernova remnants, and so would be intensely irradiated.

The hydrocarbons alone could make it worth setting up some sort of harvesting operation if sufficiently abundant. Lot of things you can make from those. Might even be worth seeding such a planet with extremophile microorganisms to help preprocess such for collection and to minimize the investment of infrastructure on-planet. You get the materials without having to mess up the biosphere of an inhabitable (to sapient life) world that way.

Assuming of course that the value of materials collected is greater than the cost of transporting them.

[Jagged]

If I was going to speculate I would rather look to the moons of a large gas giant than a rare planet. The moons might be nearly as large, it might even have been already pulled apart by the gas giant's gravity to form a ring. In which case it might be "comparitively" easy to find asteroids rich in the rare metals you require.

I could imagine an area of space rich in young systems where the planets are still forming, where again, it might be easier for a space faring species to find and mine the resources they need.

Interestingly the things I have read about asteriod mining suggest that unlike the Earth, heavier metals are distributed evenly throughout an asteroid’s mass rather than closer to the core, and as an added attraction the presence of these materials will often be found in much higher concentrations than on Earth. So asteroid fields may be the way to go.

I also think (although I might be wrong) that most of the platinum family of metals on the Earth come from meteors. Which covers most of the rare metals we add to alloys for strength and heat resistance.

[Arioch]

"Rare" minerals are incredibly abundant on Earth; it's just that the heavier elements have mostly sunk into the depths of the planet when it was molten, and are mainly brought to the surface in trace amounts by vulcanism. I think most of our iron deposits come from veins laid down during the Oxygen Catastrophe when the byproducts of early photosynthetic life caused the iron dissolved in the then-green iron-rich oceans to rust out and coat the ocean floor. The resources are everywhere, it's just a question of how economical it is to get to them.

Deep core mining can get at these minerals, but I suspect that collecting them from asteroids will probably be cheaper, especially at ~TL10.

I don't know of any research that suggests that gas giant moons would be unusually rich in heavy elements, as, like with Earth, most would sink to the center during formation to form the core. As far as I'm aware, most of the moons of the outer planets are mostly rock and ice, and comparatively little metal outside the core. Moons with extremely active vulcanism like Io could bring more heavy metals to the surface, but I think the hazards of such an unstable geology might outweigh the benefits.

But my main point is that all of these features probably exist in any star system with a habitable planet, and so in most cases any resourcing operations will be done most cost-effectively in the same system with the source of consumption.

[QuakeIV]

Will the comic last long enough for humanity to matter? Kindof starting to strike me as a 'no' the more I think about it (particularly reviewing this thread and some of the ancillary stuff regarding human capabilities at this point).

[spacewhale]

I imagine a strategic mind that is not handicapped by the inability to psychically determine the location of an adversary might be useful to the war effort. A fresh perspective.

[boldilocks]

The comic isn't about humanity, as far as I understand. Think of it as a travel log kept by a native south american allied with spanish conquistadors as they lay waste to the incan empire.

[GeoModder]

The comic isn't about humanity, as far as I understand. Think of it as a travel log kept by a native south american allied with spanish conquistadors as they lay waste to the incan empire.

Or Marco Polo in the Far East...

[QuakeIV]

That did seem likely, I was just kindof inclined to pose the question.

[gaerzi]

Will the comic last long enough for humanity to matter?

Depends how you define "humanity" and "mattering".

Obviously, the discovery by the Loroi of humanity's existence will have a profound impact, notably because of its implication that the Loroi were just another Soia-Liron "copy" of an existing species, like the Barsam are to the Nibiren, and therefore not the fabled Soia themselves. But well, humans themselves will not really care much about provoking a crisis of faith in some alien species. They'll probably care more about the Loroi being blue-skinned space babes...

And obviously also, Alex will play an important role somehow.

But the rest of humanity, hopefully, should be able to just sit this one out.

[QuakeIV]

As soon as I first saw the Loroi I thought 'oh, alien space-babe empire', so I appreciate that you used that term.

Yeah it seems like this is mainly a matter of trying to make sure one faction or the other doesn't exterminate humanity due to that being marginally preferable to letting them align with the other side.

There is the slightly unfortunate aspect at the moment that humanity might wind up being seen as the catalyzing factor for the huge bug breakthrough currently underway, due to them being invisible to their far-seer thingies.

[Jagged]

There is the slightly unfortunate aspect at the moment that humanity might wind up being seen as the catalyzing factor for the huge bug breakthrough currently underway, due to them being invisible to their far-seer thingies.

"Seen"? Humanity might actually be the cause. If the bugs have already found some humans and decided to grow a few of their own ...

[dragoongfa]

There is the slightly unfortunate aspect at the moment that humanity might wind up being seen as the catalyzing factor for the huge bug breakthrough currently underway, due to them being invisible to their far-seer thingies.

"Seen"? Humanity might actually be the cause. If the bugs have already found some humans and decided to grow a few of their own ...

How would they convince humans to man their warships against the hot blue space elves?

No, women wouldn't do cut it because they would incinerate the bugs.

[Mk_C]

"Seen"? Humanity might actually be the cause. If the bugs have already found some humans and decided to grow a few of their own ...

I think it to be most unlikely.

Alex already pointed out on page 67 how even detecting human lotai would be non-trivial for Umiak, captive/vat-grown Loroi or no. Much less understanding the extent of this lotai (they need to know not only that Loroi can't send to humans, but that they are undetectable to Farseers across interstellar distances in fleet numbers), and somehow acquiring enough pinkies to crew literal thousands of ships. Even assuming that they figured out the lotai, and how to clone humans, and train and indoctrinate them to crew whole gatecrasher fleets. That would require first grabbing humans somehow, which would be either one of the other scouts, or some other exploration vessel. Other scouts would mean literally a couple months between the contact and a gorillion obedient humans - some bullshit even by space fantasy measure, much less the hard-ish sci-fi bar we have here. Hierarchy is experimentally daring and industrious, not magical. Otherwise, it would imply a completely different expedition somehow running into the Hierarchy in a completely unrelated incident years ago, which would enter the narrative completely out of left field, and somewhat contradict a lot of what we were already told, without even an opportunity to resolve the confusion - a mess with no payoff.

The parallel between human lotai and the undetectable Hierarchy fleets would make Loroi leadership suspicious - they know next to anything about humans and their (nonexistent) history with the Hierarchy, and all that they do know comes from either Alex or the Historian Emissary, both most untrustworthy. Stillstorm, the Emperor and the Diadem would have grounds for reasonable suspicions, but both we the audience and Alex himself can be fairly certain that these suspicions are ultimately wrong, and proving them as such would be an interesting challenge for Alex. Some complain that "protagonists seem totally helpless and irrelevant in the story" - here's a task for Jardin's wits, cunning and rhetoric, with stakes as high and development perhaps more interesting than most space battles. Well, either that, or Loroi could just look through Hierarchy wrecks and eventually discover a curious absence of human bodies aboard. Maybe both, eventually.

[Krulle]

And even if the Umiak did find some adventurous Humans and were able to snatch them without alerting the Human authorities, I don't think they would find out that the Humans do have a Lotai.
They are not telepathic.
They have no access to telepaths which could perform a test for them, except if they were able to reeducate captured Loroi (or their offspring).
So how to find out that Humans have a Lotai, and how to copy it?

And reading our DNA and discern from there that Humans have Lotai and that it would work against the Loroi would mean their technological base is far enough that they likely would've created their own Lotai-engineered Bugs already themselves, before they found the Humans.

The Loroi have access to plenty of telepaths, and did extensive testing, and still haven't found out how the telepath-amplificators of the Soia work. They are able to replicate the effect,and have done enough trial-and-error testing to adapt the technology for their purpose, and adapt it for individuals for improved performances, but in the end, they still don't know how farsensing/telekinetics/telepath works.


So my theory hinges on one thing: that the Umiak don't have access to Loroi directly.

So, most likely, the Umiak did capture and experiment on enough Loroi, that some of the Loroi PoW (or their offspring) serve the Umiak now.
Although, how they hide their own minds and that of others still remains a mystery, as the Loroi are able to observe their own populations over lightyears. And someone crying/shouting for help because they're being tortured to work for the Umiak would likely be a mind noticed.
So, the Umiak either spend extreme efforts reeducating the Loroi (displacing them to the other side of their empire to be out of range of the Loroi farsensers), then torture/re-educate them, make them find out how to hide minds, and then bring them into the war again....


I'm baffled, so I'm waiting for the next chapters!

[Jagged]

There is the slightly unfortunate aspect at the moment that humanity might wind up being seen as the catalyzing factor for the huge bug breakthrough currently underway, due to them being invisible to their far-seer thingies.

"Seen"? Humanity might actually be the cause. If the bugs have already found some humans and decided to grow a few of their own ...

How would they convince humans to man their warships against the hot blue space elves?

By growing their own. Isn't that how they reproduce themselves? Grow a few humans in a vat, tell them what you like.

[Werra]

How would they convince humans to man their warships against the hot blue space elves?

By offering the human species a favourable deal on the unavoidable partnership. Once Umiak are in orbit around earth, there is no more choice between Loroi and Umiak. Also, Loroi are cute and all, but they don't measure up to the survival of the species. The people deciding these things certainly won't do so because Loroi look like attractive females. I'd hope they're more professional than that. In any case, thanks to their age, they won't be hormone driven.

And even if the Umiak did find some adventurous Humans and were able to snatch them without alerting the Human authorities, I don't think they would find out that the Humans do have a Lotai.

They do have a lot of captive Loroi. With how alike Loroi and humans look, the Umiak will certainly run extensive tests. They will ask about human telepathy and the answer they get is going to be "Hu?".
Tests can easily be run on captive Loroi. I'm sure there are plenty of Loroi that will cooperate on tests if it means not getting the hose again. If the Umiak bred Loroi, they might also have the third generation of them already.

[dragoongfa]

"Seen"? Humanity might actually be the cause. If the bugs have already found some humans and decided to grow a few of their own ...

How would they convince humans to man their warships against the hot blue space elves?

By growing their own. Isn't that how they reproduce themselves? Grow a few humans in a vat, tell them what you like.

No matter what womb a human comes out from there are going to be three constants about them:

1) A man will want to bang a hot woman.
2) A woman will want for bugs to die
3) Human stupidity = infinity

[Mk_C]

So my theory hinges on one thing: that the Umiak don't have access to Loroi directly.

It's not just access to Loroi. They needed to confirm specifically that Farseers cannot pick up humans in fleet numbers, raise a substantial population of such humans, trust these thralls to perform the most vital and highly complex operation in the entire war all by themselves, and hope really hard that they did not fuck anything up (like their pet Farseers could be wrong, or straight up lying) - because the entire outcome of the war hinges entirely on this secret little op.

This would be to Operation Citadel what Operation Citadel was to a sensible strategic gamble. Hierarchy really tends to avoid this kind of ventures. Whatever allows them to spoof Farseers right now is more likely to be something way more simple and reliable.

[Mk_C]

Once Umiak are in orbit around earth, there is no more choice between Loroi and Umiak.

That's impossible. Even if a Hierarchy fleet tailed the Orgus refugees and popped in as soon as scouts left - it would take them at least the time gap between the contact mission's start and the Azimol gambit we're currently witnessing just to get those pinkes back into Hierarchy space. Probably way more. That's before the issue of indoctrinating and educating them to crew completely alien ships and getting them to the Steppes front. Distances and time are kind of important in the Outsider.

And that is before considering the issue of:

So, we are being held hostage by you and what army now? Maybe you didn't notice, but you have us crewing >20 divisions of your best ships. Why exactly would we use those to fight your gay little war like obedient little slaves instead of applying this very fleet to a much more curious purpose of skullfucking you all to to death with extra irony?

[QuakeIV]

I don't see that they would really have any issues indoctrinating cloned humans (unless they are just really bad at understanding non-bug psychology, which to be fair kindof seems like its the case). I feel like there is no way they have had time to do that yet, unless they were collecting humans a long time before anybody seemingly knew humans existed.

Also it was pointed out the bugs do have access to some captured Loroi, and they do most likely have the ability to clone some (I believe Arioch earlier in this thread specifically proclaimed that this is a thing the bugs can do). I kindof feel like even if they don't have a private army of blue space elf psykers, then they at least probably could figure out that the humans are invisible to them since I bet you they have at least a handful of psyker clones willing to do their bidding. I feel like they would probably need to have some particular realization that they need to check for that, though. I'm inclined to assume they would need to make the decision to bring one of them over to check out any humans they might have possession of.