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Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider" 
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
I am fairly certain that whatever hangs from the wall is intended to be used as a trashcan, probably of hygienic products since it is obviously hermetically sealed, any similarity with Historian artifacts is purely coincidental.

I seriously wonder if Tempo really forgot about that one.

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Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:15 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
dragoongfa wrote:
I am fairly certain that whatever hangs from the wall is intended to be used as a trashcan, probably of hygienic products since it is obviously hermetically sealed, any similarity with Historian artifacts is purely coincidental.

I always thought of it as more of a flowerpot.

dragoongfa wrote:
I seriously wonder if Tempo really forgot about that one.

Well... she did board the shuttle at the last moment.

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Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Arioch wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:
I am fairly certain that whatever hangs from the wall is intended to be used as a trashcan, probably of hygienic products since it is obviously hermetically sealed, any similarity with Historian artifacts is purely coincidental.

I always thought of it as more of a flowerpot.


If my time in the military taught me one thing then that thing is: The lowest common denominator is what decides what something is and how it is used. From my experience the lowest common denominator will see as a trashcan only because it is too big to be considered a chamber pot and any moron would be too scared to sit on it and possibly get stuck.

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dragoongfa wrote:
I seriously wonder if Tempo really forgot about that one.

Well... she did board the shuttle at the last moment.


She hasn't been getting enough sleep, hasn't she?

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Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:02 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
hi hi

Arioch wrote:
The saying is "opposites attract", not "opposites make good life partners." There is biological advantage in mating with someone different from you or outside your local circle (that's the whole point of sex: to diversify your genes), so it's easy to see why people are often attracted to outsiders or people with different characters than their own. Strong attraction doesn't mean the relationship will last.
I will grant that opposites attracting is not the same as opposites make good life partners, but usually when people say opposites attract, they are supporting complementary relationship theory.

It is certainly true that there is a good biological reason for selecting mates with different characteristics. However, with humans at least, it does not seem that it is a very prevalent drive. The biggest factors in attraction tend to be the appearance of healthiness, familiarity, and symmetry. Interracial couples may be at an all time high and trending upward, but they're still only 10-15% of couples.

(Granted that the genes that make up racial groups are not actually that many, and genetic diversity is greater within groups than across, it is still what most people look at visually when deciding if someone is in or out group.)

All that being said, I do certainly know people who think that the idea of the outsider is exotic and exciting. I just wouldn't go so far as to treat it as an axiom.


Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:12 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
dragoongfa wrote:
If my time in the military taught me one thing then that thing is: The lowest common denominator is what decides what something is and how it is used.


LOL! Reminds me of "Remember, kids! Everything can be a hammer and most things can be a pry bar" :lol:


Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:55 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
Does it have to end up being about love? The Loroi don't have it the same way we do. Biologically and sociologically not.
I think expecting them to conform to human notions is doing them a disservice and can only disappoint.


No one said anything about love. For now, what drives both Talon and Beryl could (would) be simple curiosity. Though, Beryl did admit that on the Loroi male part there is a biological imperative to mate. So it's reasonable to assume that Loroi do have about the same urges and drives humans have, else they wouldn't have survived the times their ordered society had collapsed, for example after the fall of the Soia Empire.

But yes, the drive to pair bond might be missing in Loroi (as it is evidently missing in many humans, too), whether it was never there or had been sort of outlawed in modern Loroi society might be a different question.

But yes, both Talon and Beryl do display some sort of curiosity, especially Beryl who simply couldn't drop the lines of thought about his 'nakedness taboos' and comparative mating habits early on.

And Beryl had shown at least once a tinge of jealousy when Talon made even more and more easily 'progress' with Alex when they met up in the shuttle cockpit.

Loroi may be not about romantic love. But a romp between the bedsheets is likely to be a different matter. Else handing out or denying male encounter permissions would simply not work as a measure of handing out merits and enforcing discipline, and for bolstering their population numbers they'd have resorted to in vitro fertilization or cloning as a cleaner, quicker and more efficient means to get things done.


Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:51 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
For all the apparent similarities, Loroi biology is different in key aspects. In humans pair bonding is highly effective as the mother is weak and feeble during pregnancy and dependent on other peoples labour during much of child rearing. The male is also generally the more productive part of the pair, at least in terms of consumable goods. So the equation is male labour + female child rearing = offspring.

In Loroi the equation is only partially reversed. Female Loroi still carry the load of pregnancy and childcare, but also have to be the productive ones. The most succesful survival strategy should therefore be one in which many females share the workload (of maintaining the males) and cover for each other during vulnerable periods.
Monogamous relationships should, after 250.000 years post-fall evolution be absolutely abbarent to them. I could even take Beryl for her word and believe that Loroi have sex primarily for reproductive purposes.

The consequences for their culture and how they behave around each other would be massive. We should consider their body language as alien to us as Trade. The sounds forming words may be the same but...


Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:51 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
I could even take Beryl for her word and believe that Loroi have sex primarily for reproductive purposes.


Primarily being the operative word. Which in turn means that they do know of recreational sex, which is underlined by the "Insider" tidbit that some times Loroi females do fondly remember the times they spent - the big difference is that the longing for a repeat performance is missing.

And, the previous statement still stands. If mating hasn't been tied to the biological reward system they'd surely have done away with sex altogether and resorted to artificial means of getting pregnant. Less hassle, easier to be controlled, quicker, more efficient. Or even done completely away with childbearing and have their kids raised in artificial wombs.

So yes, for all the apparent differences there are quite some similarities. Which doesn't make things any easier for Alex.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:41 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Alex - "These Loroi women are going to be the Death of me!" :lol:

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Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:01 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
novius wrote:
Primarily

The primary function can be absolutely vital for the whole. It doesn't necessarily follow that Loroi have sex for secondary reasons, without the primary. Would you buy a car that by design can't drive?

novius wrote:
If mating hasn't been tied to the biological reward system they'd surely have done away with sex altogether and resorted to artificial means of getting pregnant.

Not at all. Sex doesn't have to be tied to direct biological rewards to be worthwhile. Social rewards and pressures are enough to get people to copulate. Many homosexuals had and still have families and biological offspring for those (and more) reasons afterall.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:39 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
novius wrote:
If mating hasn't been tied to the biological reward system they'd surely have done away with sex altogether and resorted to artificial means of getting pregnant.

Not at all. Sex doesn't have to be tied to direct biological rewards to be worthwhile. Social rewards and pressures are enough to get people to copulate. Many homosexuals had and still have families and biological offspring for those (and more) reasons afterall.


Orgasms still give a pleasurable response to homosexuals, though. Also, I would assume some familial drive is present in them.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:41 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Given Loroi can laugh, enjoy things, and were allegedly based off a primitive species with biological reward systems, it's a fair guess they have biological reward systems for the dirty tango.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:46 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
As my first post take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, However I find it hilarious that everyone seems to be focused, and continues to focus on, the nature of the potential inter species sex life.

I find it kind of odd that Alex is not questioning or pushing back with the nonchalant treatment of his person or privacy.
Especially given the recent events that he has been granted / recognized as a diplomat and "captain". He's been kept in isolation even after that (granted it was for his safety). They continue to show little regard for personal space.
Given all the events, if I were him, I would be seriously questioning the intentions of the Loroi.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:40 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Krin wrote:
As my first post take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, However I find it hilarious that everyone seems to be focused, and continues to focus on, the nature of the potential inter species sex life.

I find it kind of odd that Alex is not questioning or pushing back with the nonchalant treatment of his person or privacy.
Especially given the recent events that he has been granted / recognized as a diplomat and "captain". He's been kept in isolation even after that (granted it was for his safety). They continue to show little regard for personal space.
Given all the events, if I were him, I would be seriously questioning the intentions of the Loroi.


1. Mass Effect is a thing.

2. I dont think it is matter that much for loroi now, they probably wont be able to send expedition in next year or even more, because of Umiak activity on frontline. So, i think they mostly see him as a speciemen for experementation.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:46 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
Social rewards and pressures are enough to get people to copulate. Many homosexuals had and still have families and biological offspring for those (and more) reasons afterall.


Loroi, as a species which are usually practical to a fault, would strike me as the first people who would simply do away with an outdated, clumsy and messy way of reproduction if there's no inherent benefit to it rather than clinging to it just because of customs.

What you're talking about is the fact that homosexuality is still stigmatized in many parts of the world. It's still a fact, despite all that rainbow banners and public declarations of solidarity. So gay people do this to maintain a facade. Remove sex, remove all the hang ups around it and you won't have that problem anymore.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:19 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Krin wrote:
Especially given the recent events that he has been granted / recognized as a diplomat and "captain". He's been kept in isolation even after that (granted it was for his safety). They continue to show little regard for personal space.
Given all the events, if I were him, I would be seriously questioning the intentions of the Loroi.


It could be that Tempo's declaration in front of witnesses was a move to derail Stillstorm. At that moment, she looked like she'd be seconds away from ordering to have him spaced or dissected as soon as it becomes clear that there's no worthwile information to be extracted from him. And as far as interrogation went, they were already running out of options.

So Tempo forced Stillstorm's hand to keep him around for a little longer. Yet the downside is that none of the Loroi have an idea what to actually do with him, so Stillstorm decided to get him off the ship and sent to Seren. At least, publicly. Perhaps she wouldn't have been too disappointed if Alex would have met an accident on the way there...

So, Tempo's declaration might be worth zilch. Remember, she's a Mizol, and they already have a reputation of untrustworthiness.

And now they're stuck in the shuttle, and while Tempo did feed him some tidbits she sort of pawned him off to the Listel. Let the scientists deal with the alien. Since when it comes to diplomacy or intel, he surely has nothing substantial to offer anymore.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:39 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
novius wrote:
Werra wrote:
I could even take Beryl for her word and believe that Loroi have sex primarily for reproductive purposes.

Primarily being the operative word. Which in turn means that they do know of recreational sex, which is underlined by the "Insider" tidbit that some times Loroi females do fondly remember the times they spent - the big difference is that the longing for a repeat performance is missing.

It's important to keep in mind that most animals do not pair bond; herds often have a single breeding male that presides over a large harem, but for the most part, most animals meet up singly in the wild, do the deed, and then never see each other again. This doesn't mean that the sex act is not pleasurable for them, or that they don't have very strong sex drives.

novius wrote:
And, the previous statement still stands. If mating hasn't been tied to the biological reward system they'd surely have done away with sex altogether and resorted to artificial means of getting pregnant. Less hassle, easier to be controlled, quicker, more efficient. Or even done completely away with childbearing and have their kids raised in artificial wombs.

With the Loroi, for whom overpopulation is a potentially dangerous problem, having impregnation be a bit of a hassle is not really a bad thing. Being able to control impregnation rates by controlling access to males is important biological and social mechanism, and also works as a reward system. I think that if simple and effective artificial impregnation methods were widely available, that could be much harder to control.

And I'm not sure artificial wombs will be viable at this level of technology. The human reproductive system is an incredibly complex mechanism that I think would be very difficult and expensive to replicate artificially. Unless you use people parts for it... which gets into murky ethical territory. Seems like a lot of expense and effort when your population has baby-making machines built into them that operate essentially for free.

Also, while human females like to complain about the inconveniences and discomforts of being pregnant, and bemoan the loss of productivity and negative impact on career and social standing (oh, the evil patriarchy!), the biological drives are strong, not just to get pregnant, but to be pregnant. Drawbacks aside, I think that most women, on balance, enjoy the experience of pregnancy, and I think many would still choose to become pregnant even if artificial alternatives were available.

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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Arioch wrote:

Also, while human females like to complain about the inconveniences and discomforts of being pregnant, and bemoan the loss of productivity and negative impact on career and social standing (oh, the evil patriarchy!), the biological drives are strong, not just to get pregnant, but to be pregnant. Drawbacks aside, I think that most women, on balance, enjoy the experience of pregnancy, and I think many would still choose to become pregnant even if artificial alternatives were available.


Being a father with a 22 month old toddler and another on the launch apron so to speak, according to my wife the drive to be pregnant is a very strong emotional one, yes there is the 'ticking biological clock' effect, but in her words,
"the clock is just an irritating buzz at the back of your head and does not compare to when you feel your with the right person at the right time, which can be like an avalanche when you realise it, and then that morphs seamlessly into mother child bonding when they do come along... Now go get me a sandwich"

Now im not saying its the same for every woman out there, but i dont think you can look at it from a purely cold instinctive point of view.. Yes the Loroi might look on it as an almost purely business like transaction, but i believe theres a few things simmering just below the surface, or have been turned off by their creator race.. However, for a virtually non talking race, Beryl DID involuntarily laugh out loud.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:51 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
DevilDalek wrote:
Being a father with a 22 month old toddler and another on the launch apron so to speak, according to my wife the drive to be pregnant is a very strong emotional one, yes there is the 'ticking biological clock' effect, but in her words,
"the clock is just an irritating buzz at the back of your head and does not compare to when you feel your with the right person at the right time, which can be like an avalanche when you realise it, and then that morphs seamlessly into mother child bonding when they do come along... Now go get me a sandwich"

Heh. Congratulations, by the way.

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Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:13 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Arioch wrote:
Heh. Congratulations, by the way.


Thanks! Tiring but worth it..

I dont known if its telling or not.. But since I started reading your comic, I have met my wife, bought my own home, married my wife, seen my first son come into the world and heard the heartbeat of my second!

Just sayin' Alex needs to get his finger out with those blue space elves..


Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:27 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Arioch wrote:
And I'm not sure artificial wombs will be viable at this level of technology. The human reproductive system is an incredibly complex mechanism that I think would be very difficult and expensive to replicate artificially. Unless you use people parts for it... which gets into murky ethical territory. Seems like a lot of expense and effort when your population has baby-making machines built into them that operate essentially for free.

I'm not disputing that last fact, mind you, but even we puny humans are making big strides on creating external incubators. :shock:

Granted, we're not there quite yet, but it seems quite unlikely to take us more than a century to figure out. Goat reproduction is, afterall, not that much less complicated than the human one.

But then again, science rarely moves in straight lines, and what seems to be simple now, can sometimes take decades just to solve a tiny last obstacle. :lol:


Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
There's a big difference between an incubator that can keep a fairly developed fetus alive for a few months until term (which the Loroi do have), and a true artificial womb that allows you to cut the mother out of the loop entirely. I think the latter is an order of magnitude more complex than the former, and I think would be difficult to replicate mechanically without some bioengineering of living tissue.

The Umiak do have a reproductive process that can be almost entirely artificially duplicated, but they have the advantage of being egg-layers. All they really need is an embryo and an incubator and they're off to the races. Mammaloid live birth gestation is a lot trickier.

I suppose I can imagine a technology timeline where where biotech increases exponentially and its adoption is unhindered by ethical concerns, and you end up with sort of a post-human bioengineered society where most mechanisms become biological rather than mechanical, and personal physicality becomes malleable and trivial. But this is not that sort of story.

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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Zorg56 wrote:
1. Mass Effect is a thing.


Amanda Greyson, Green Orion Dancing girls and Thora of Zoltral want a word. As do the Princesses Dejah Thoris of Helium, Aura of Mongo and Ardalla of Draconia, though they might prefer a more pointed reminder of their existance. Starsha of Iscandar will comment despite being heroically dead.

Meltradi Commander Miriya Parino can't stop giggling long enough to mention her marriage. Possibly she's trying to work out if her slightly poined ears make her a Space Elf.

Auris of Las-Toór would have you shot, then she'd go back in time to prevent Mass Effect ever having been made. How dare you imply that she doesn't need to deny liking Perry that way or that Thora having been mentioned means she's superfluous to the point.

Ablïarsec Néïc Dubleuscr Bœrh Parhynr Lamhirh would think that was a bit much. Her dad used to tease her mother that was a house cat after all.

Etc.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:09 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
And, we as the readers do know that the Soia preferred to make copies of existing species, improve on what they think has to be improved but for the rest, going with the maxim "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

After all, changing something in a working system always has a chance of creating unintended side effects.

So, aside from doing the usual optimization and adapting to the time-proven Soia-Liron biology, they thought about turning around the gender bias to make females the dominating gender. Together with the shortened maturation time it's likely to make Loroi be able to bolster their numbers real quick.

We do know that the modern Loroi have a rather practical view on inter-gender relationships and child raising, but we don't know what the Soia intended them to be.

As it is, it could be very much like Loroi had been designed to be highly competitive over their males, to ensure only the best ones to pass on her genes, in a darwinistic sort of way. After all, Beryl was quick to assume that humans would be territorial of their women when the discussion came along that road the first time. After the collapse of the Soia Empire and the rebuilding of their civilization, they might have decided that the 'old ways' would lead to their downfall and enforced rather heavy lockdowns and taboos on that sort of possessive and competitive behavior.

Which would mean that beneath the calm and collected surface, the more primitive part of a Loroi mind could house a veritable storm of emotions, and we already getting some glimpses of it.


Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:31 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Soia origin is not 100% fact, there is still possibility of convergent evolution (well, it is very low, but still).

Spoiler: show
Image

P.s. Noticed only now... How the hell Bellarmine get in there without anyone noticing? This place should be swarming with Umiak patrols and Loroi raid groups. Or this grey lines just old trade routes and there is way more jump possibilities? But even if there is dozens of systems not mapped here, it is still really strange. Espicially with Bellarmine acceleration.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:12 am
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