Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

[Razor One]

Heh, heh, well how about if it was repeated five days a week for several years? on regular timeslots like the Mickey Mouse Club was? admittedly the content changes for each one so the only thing you would get that would be consistent would be the Mickey Mouse Theme..

The signal itself would dissipate too much to ever really be able to discern the repeating content.

Let's use the one minute intro of Captain Planet and the Planeteers as an example. That used to air at 5 PM local time back in the 90's for me as a kid. The intro weighs in at 2.8 Megabytes worth of digital data, after more than a decade of compression, Youtube quality, etc. So let's say that the original analogue and uncompressed data stream was 28 megabytes worth of data. Let's also assume that the signal power is sufficient for the Loroi to clearly hear it above the background radiation. Signal dissipation is still a thing though. If they can get one tenth of a percent of the original signal, I'd consider that plenty impressive.

So, a bit of math, that works out to:

28 MB = 29,360,128 Bytes
29360128 * 0.001 (1/10th of 1%) = 29360.128 = 28.672 Kilobytes.

Now, let's assume that every time the show is broadcast the Loroi manage to perfectly capture the next 28.672 kilobytes of the introduction sequentially so as not to needlessly duplicate results...

Total Signal / Amount Captured = Time to get the full picture

29360128 / 29360.128 = 1000

They'd need to listen in 1000 times successfully to get the whole intro. There were six seasons and 113 episodes. Assuming the intro never changed, the timeslots remained consistent, the positioning of the Earth and orbital precession remained consistent, there were no occluding events, no interfering gas and dust clouds, they reran the entire show 10 times, and perfectly captured every last byte while knowing exactly what to look for and when to look for it and were listening in the one minute window of opportunity to get the data they needed, they might be able to pick the signal out from amongst the noise and be able to piece it together.

And that's assuming that signal strength is itself no object. The signal strength necessary to reach 200 light years clearly for this to even work would probably strip off the ozone layer and require more juice than the entire continental united states produces in a year.

Even when the deck is stacked and handwaved to favour some kind of signal getting through, the odds of it reaching that far are... astronomical, appropriately enough. There is no possibility of an Omicronian situation. The best we, or anyone else for that matter, can probably hope for is a WoW! type signal that turns out to be genuine, predictable, constant and repeating, instead of a once off mystery like we got.

That being said, the Wow! signal did come from about the right distance... who knows, maybe Humans are the ones that got the hint about someone actually being out there long ago and simply missed it.

[Mr.Tucker]

Is it out of the ordinary that humanity evolved in an area designated "The Great Wasteland" (lower stellar density/higher mean distance between stars)? All the civilisations in Loroi space seem to have evolved in close proximity to one another. How does the cosmological architecture of the Local Bubble affect travel? Are the "tunnels'' highlighted on the map some sort of shortcuts/paths of least resisntance?

[discord]

actually analog signals fare MUCH better on long ranges and 'decoding' interestingly enough, unless you specifically design the signals in that manner(hint, we have not most of the time), analog signals get garbled(but still sorta understandable) while digital get CRC errors and packet loss.....the much lower data density works to the favor of analog signals....and some of those early transmitters were scary powerful.

"the most powerful commercial radio station ever was WLW (700KHz AM), which during certain times in the 1930s broadcasted 500kW radiated power. At night, it covered half the globe. Neighbors within the vicinity of the transmitter heard the audio in their pots, pans, and mattresses."

that is a flipping fuckton of signal, if the combatants do not know where earth is yet, they soon will.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Now, I'm a fan of Babylon 5. Mimicking previous design work is honestly rather common in science fiction, so I'm not even saying they're villains because of it. My guess is they were going for homage, but in that case, I don't think they were designing things with practicality in mind.

Like so:

SpoilerShow

[GeoModder]

Is it out of the ordinary that humanity evolved in an area designated "The Great Wasteland" (lower stellar density/higher mean distance between stars)? All the civilisations in Loroi space seem to have evolved in close proximity to one another. How does the cosmological architecture of the Local Bubble affect travel? Are the "tunnels'' highlighted on the map some sort of shortcuts/paths of least resisntance?

Take a closer look at the size of Loroi space in the map above. There's a dozen races within the Loroi Alliance, and Alliance space takes up roughly a fifth to a quarter of the Local Bubble. That's a couple hundred cubic lightyear all in all. I'd say the 'density' of races within that volume isn't that big then. Of course, we don't know if the Nissek and Historians don't have more client races within their own territory that are unknown to the Loroi (or Arioch simply didn't mention to us). Even so, I'd be surprised if in the void between Terran -and Loroi territory, there'd be more then two unknown races.

[Mr.Tucker]

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/image ... r_map2.gif

I beg to differ.We have Mannadi, Golim, Neridi, Tithryc , Morat just in there. The rest of the Union also contains Loroi (probably slighly larger space), along with Barsam, Pypolsid and Delrias. Yet in a space roughly the size of the entire union there's only us. The Umiak also appear to have a myriad of species.

Would it be something to do with the nature of the stars in the great wasteland?

[icekatze]

hi hi

Travel in Outsider is done from star to star, between stars that are reasonably close enough together. The stars in the Milky Way galaxy are not evenly distributed throughout. If there is an area with few stars, there will be fewer options for travel, and fewer places to host life.

Sol is located in a small cluster of stars near the center of a bubble, aptly named the local bubble. As you can see, there are some areas where there are fewer stars than others.

[Razor One]

actually analog signals fare MUCH better on long ranges and 'decoding' interestingly enough, unless you specifically design the signals in that manner(hint, we have not most of the time), analog signals get garbled(but still sorta understandable) while digital get CRC errors and packet loss.....the much lower data density works to the favor of analog signals....and some of those early transmitters were scary powerful.

"the most powerful commercial radio station ever was WLW (700KHz AM), which during certain times in the 1930s broadcasted 500kW radiated power. At night, it covered half the globe. Neighbors within the vicinity of the transmitter heard the audio in their pots, pans, and mattresses."

that is a flipping fuckton of signal, if the combatants do not know where earth is yet, they soon will.

The inverse square law says hello.

I = P/A = P/4*PI*R^2

P = 500,000 W
A = 4 * PI * R^2 = 4 * PI * (6000 KM)^2 = 452,389,342.12 square KM

I = P/A = 500000 / 452389342.12 = 0.0011~ W / square KM, or 1.105 W / square Meter.

This of course is just for a terrestrial distance. We're talking about light years here. Two hundred of them.

1 LY = 9,460,730,472,580,800 Meters
200 LY = 1,892,146,094,516,160,000 Meters

I = P/A = P/4*PI*R^2

4 * PI * (1892146094516160000)^2 = 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 (At this point, my calculator refuses to not use scientific notation)

= 500,000 / 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 = 1.1113498851570630408234376076642e-32 Watts / square meter.

This is ten million times fainter than Voyager 2 (1.9 * 10^-26 W/SqM). In order to get to Voyager 2 levels of being able to hear things across this distance, you'd probably need to increase the signal power by that factor, or a signal of 5,000,000,000,000 Watts, Five trillion watts, A 5 Terawatt signal.

So let's refactor:

5000000000000 / 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 = 1.1113498851570630408234376076642e-25 Watts / square meter.

The only radio telescope capable of transmitting at that level of power is Arecibo AFAIK, and only in the narrow band and not as an isotropic radiator as traditional radio and television signals. It was built in 1963. If they signalled in the precise direction of the Loroi upon the moment of completion at 5 TW, the Loroi would be able to hear it a bit better than we can hear Voyager 2. If they transmitted at the full EIRP of Arecibo, 20 TW, they'd hear that signal about half as well as we can hear Cassini.

However, Outsider's date (2160) is three years too soon for any signal to have been sent.

The chances of the Loroi ever having received signals from Earth is bupkus. Even using an extremely powerful transmitter and signalling as soon as it's complete, assuming that they even transmit in the correct direction and that the Loroi are listening for a signal let alone something they can decode and play back, they're three years away from hearing anything at all at the very best.

I wasn't kidding when I said the odds of them hearing a signal from us is astronomical. It's more likely that we've heard signals from the Loroi, since they've probably had radio longer than we have, and that we've simply missed their signals in all the noise.

[TrashMan]

hi hi

Now, I'm a fan of Babylon 5. Mimicking previous design work is honestly rather common in science fiction, so I'm not even saying they're villains because of it. My guess is they were going for homage, but in that case, I don't think they were designing things with practicality in mind.

Like so:

SpoilerShow

Actually, the Starfury is probably one of the most practical and best star-fighter designs in Sci-Fi.

[Mr.Tucker]

hi hi

Travel in Outsider is done from star to star, between stars that are reasonably close enough together. The stars in the Milky Way galaxy are not evenly distributed throughout. If there is an area with few stars, there will be fewer options for travel, and fewer places to host life.

Sol is located in a small cluster of stars near the center of a bubble, aptly named the local bubble. As you can see, there are some areas where there are fewer stars than others.

But here's my problem: it seems that when stars are closer together it's actually more time-consuming to travel (given that most of the time is spent inside a stellar gravity well, navigating from one jump point to another). Is this correct or am I missing something? Why is that region termed ''The Great Wasteland''? It surely contains stars (prehaps not planets? low metalicity?)

[cacambo43]

But here's my problem: it seems that when stars are closer together it's actually more time-consuming to travel (given that most of the time is spent inside a stellar gravity well, navigating from one jump point to another). Is this correct or am I missing something? Why is that region termed ''The Great Wasteland''? It surely contains stars (prehaps not planets? low metalicity?)

The stars and maps Arioch is using are based on real astronomical observation and astrometry. It's very likely there are perhaps some brown dwarfs or the like in "The Great Wasteland," but we can be reasonably sure there are no stars.

CJSF

[Mr.Tucker]

But here's my problem: it seems that when stars are closer together it's actually more time-consuming to travel (given that most of the time is spent inside a stellar gravity well, navigating from one jump point to another). Is this correct or am I missing something? Why is that region termed ''The Great Wasteland''? It surely contains stars (prehaps not planets? low metalicity?)

The stars and maps Arioch is using are based on real astronomical observation and astrometry. It's very likely there are perhaps some brown dwarfs or the like in "The Great Wasteland," but we can be reasonably sure there are no stars.

CJSF

I think you missunderstand. There ARE stars there: the TCA systems. Sun, Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Eridani, and many others. The Great Wasteland isn't BETWEEN Loroi and TCA space, it's everything galactic east of Loroi space. So why is it called the Great Wasteland?

[Arioch]

The "Silk Road" refers to ancient trade routes that lead spinward out of the Local Bubble, to distant civilizations in the Ophiuchus Superbubble up-arm. The Orgus and other nations along the periphery still have some knowledge of these routes, and the Orgus evidently knew of at least one path that led into what is now Human territory.

The "Great Wasteland" is a region of lower-than-normal star density, with few habitable planets and no known native intelligent species or precursor ruins. It's so-called because nobody lives there. The Loroi haven't expanded in that direction because they haven't found any suitable colonization targets within a comfortable range. The larger distances between stars means you have to make longer jumps through the region; this speeds up travel, but introduces additional risk if you don't have a well-planned, well-surveyed route.

Massive stars and supernovae constantly blow bubbles in the thin gas and dust of the interstellar galactic medium. As these bubbles merge and grow and interact, shock waves form at their boundaries, compressing the gas into nebulae and triggering star formation. The "Gould Belt" that forms the boundary of the Local Bubble along the galactic plane contains many of the well-known nearby star-forming regions and clusters of young, massive stars, including M41 (Canis Major), the Orion Molecular Cloud Complex, the Taurus Molecular Cloud, the Rho Ophiuchi cloud complex, the Scorpius–Centaurus Association and the Coalsack. The nebulosity and massive star clusters in these boundary regions present hazards to jump travel, and so most travel and settlement by interstellar civilizations tends to be confined to the cavities of the superbubbles and the tunnels between them.

[cacambo43]

I think you missunderstand. There ARE stars there: the TCA systems. Sun, Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Eridani, and many others. The Great Wasteland isn't BETWEEN Loroi and TCA space, it's everything galactic east of Loroi space. So why is it called the Great Wasteland?

Yes, I did misunderstand you! Thanks for the clarification. See Arioch's reply above!

CJSF

[Razor One]

Probably because there are a dearth of inhabited or inhabitable planets in that region. If there's nothing but barren planets (or no planets at all) as far as you can reasonably scout in systems that have greater separation (and thus riskier jumps), and there are far greener pastures closer to home, it becomes reasonable to write off that area in its entirety.

It also explains why humanity is relatively isolated. We rose up around the only oasis in a barren land. The crossing is itself a major risk and a huge endeavour, and the return just as much if not more so.

It could also just be (definitely IMHO) a shoutout to Homeworld, which had a region called The Great Wastelands as you can see Here.

[GeoModder]

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/image ... r_map2.gif

I beg to differ.We have Mannadi, Golim, Neridi, Tithryc , Morat just in there. The rest of the Union also contains Loroi (probably slighly larger space), along with Barsam, Pypolsid and Delrias. Yet in a space roughly the size of the entire union there's only us. The Umiak also appear to have a myriad of species.

Would it be something to do with the nature of the stars in the great wasteland?

You're right, those sectors within the Loroi Union, and bordering Umiak space, appear to have a larger density of sentient species. I only took the whole Alliance under consideration, not a couple sectors.

[icekatze]

hi hi

One long hyperspace jump might be faster than a bunch of short ones, but it significantly increases the risk of missing your target and being lost in hyperspace forever. Or if you're slightly less unlucky, getting pulled out by a random star that just happened to be in your path, probably billions of lightyears off course.

The question is, was that by random chance, or by some ancient design? Dun dun dun.

In as much as space fighters are practical at all in science fiction, the Starfury is practical in all the same ways that the Gunstar is practical. They have some respect for Newton, but understandably no respect for Tsiolkovsky.

A more symmetrical design might be more effective in terms of maneuverability. A design with propellant tanks might be more plausible in terms of reality.

[RedDwarfIV]

The Loroi haven't expanded in that direction because they haven't found any suitable colonization targets within a comfortable range. The larger distances between stars means you have to make longer jumps through the region; this speeds up travel, but introduces additional risk if you don't have a well-planned, well-surveyed route.

... well, THERE's something Humans could do to help the Loroi.

Jump surveys. Find potential colonies. We're already experienced with performing long, uncertain jumps, so it's something we'd be well prepared for doing. It doesn't require especially high-tech spacecraft, just crews willing to fly on them. And it's exactly the sort of long-term assistance that would help cement Humanity's place in the Alliance, while the Loroi help them gear up for war with the Umiak.

[fredgiblet]

Nah, the Loroi can do it faster than we can either way. We DO have our area mapped and one of the somewhat valuable things we have is our maps and the Orgus maps.

[RedDwarfIV]

Nah, the Loroi can do it faster than we can either way. We DO have our area mapped and one of the somewhat valuable things we have is our maps and the Orgus maps.

The Loroi can do it faster, yeah...

... but they haven't, despite having a lot longer to do it in. And now they're probably too busy building and crewing warships to be trying to get survey spacecraft operational.