Page 88

[Arioch]

It looks kinda like Alex's shoulder spills over into panel 2.
Anyone else see the orange and the yellow stripe?

Thanks for pointing that out. It's an (unfortunately) common error of one panel intruding into another.

(fixed)

[sunphoenix]

Wow. Very Cool. The Umiak Commander ... his speech kinda puts me in the mind of a Human Pak Protector speaking to a normal human student... not really angry at how slowly, comparatively speaking, that their student's human brain processes information. And like an amused teacher willing to patently wait for a fondly considered and bright student to catch up mentally to his issued lesson.

I notice this also.

There are no demonstrably 'wicked' or even implied brutality in the Umiak commander's chosen words, no real provocation or outright threat. In fact the Umiak come off as humble, polite and sane no, "We are the Borg You will service us!" or some other inflammatory rhetoric like our Gorbachev's famous "We Will Bury you!" The Umiak are not portrayed as "obviously insanely evil" that cannot be reasoned or bargained with. That and the obvious hostility and assumed dishonorable and or deceptiveness by all the Loroi present in their attitudes toward the Umiak 'aggressors' leads me to suspect some different possibilities to mankind's role, represented by the presence of Alex, in the story.

Keeping in mind yes, the Loroi have a long history of bloodshed with the Umiak and are definitely biased in their opinions of their ancient enemy.

Which, to me at least, all this points at perhaps Arioch's plot is not for 'the human' to help the Loroi destroy or defeat the hated enemy with his deeds or the tactical possibilities humanity could potentially add to the mix but instead its Alex's 'unbiased' humanity that lends a world-view to the conflict to bring about a ...perhaps fragile PEACE between the two obviously mature and intelligent waring species and untie them, at least briefly, to face a common greater threat to both their grand civilizations that their centuries of warfare and tit for tat have blinded them to discovering?

It will be indeed interesting to see how Arioch develops 'humanity's' importance and pivotal role in the unfolding Stellar saga!

[osmium]

It's not like umiak fleet Lotai isn't an expected end game for the Loroi. They likely have contingencies in place for such things and the "new" fleets are likely which Loroi forces are taking part in such "hedging" activities. Basically in my mind all this gambit (i.e. lure in the skirmishers and then "cloak" while an attack fleet a little ways behind waits a bit and then cloaks) just gets one massive Umiak battle fleet past the Raider groups. Obviously, this could suck, but unless the Umiak technology is actually superior, all they will gain is penetration to the same depth (maybe a little more) than the steppes, so they get to glass a few planets deep and the Loroi blast away the "new" fleets with their new pulse cannon fleets and what happens? I mean do you really think the Loroi would have anything of value in border systems? The Umiak can't just waltz through occupied systems without setting off alarms and sensors.

The Umiak is definitely overplaying his hand. While it is certainly a tactical surprise and could mark the beginning of the end of the war, really all it means is that the Loroi have to fight the Umiak on more even footing ( or circumvent the cloaking), which clearly in the small war of individual battles they often do quite well.

I mean the US had plans on file for what to do in case of nuclear war when they strike second. Or what happens if the Russians invade via california etc.

-O

[dfacto]

I have to disagree Osmium. So far the Loroi have maintained a stalemate purely because of their ability to detect the Umiak. Without that advantage they are sorely outnumbered, and numbers are huge in warfare. A surprise attack with a whole fleet on an unprepared enemy is more or less a coup-de-grace.

And if the Umiak know they won't be detected you can bet they will send an overwhelming force, not some border division. Imagine being stationed on Loroi border defense and seeing a fleet 1000 times bigger than yours jump in. You're blueberry toast.

[fredgiblet]

or some other inflammatory rhetoric like our Gorbachev's famously mistranslated "We Will Bury you!"

FTFY

@osmium

I don't think the Loroi have any plans for "The Umiak bypassed our Farseers" such a thing likely wouldn't even occur to the Loroi since Lotai is so rare. If the Umiak is telling the unvarnished truth then the Loroi are likely in serious trouble. Of course the truth is likely more towards the middle, the Umiak might know the plan but it has little chance of knowing the actual situation at the moment.

[Voitan]

Sooo... Perhaps Jardin's importance to the Loroi, is his knowledge on how to flee to Earth.

As it looks like the neighborhood just went to crap.

[NOMAD]

It's not like umiak fleet Lotai isn't an expected end game for the Loroi. They likely have contingencies in place for such things and the "new" fleets are likely which Loroi forces are taking part in such "hedging" activities. Basically in my mind all this gambit (i.e. lure in the skirmishers and then "cloak" while an attack fleet a little ways behind waits a bit and then cloaks) just gets one massive Umiak battle fleet past the Raider groups. Obviously, this could suck, but unless the Umiak technology is actually superior, all they will gain is penetration to the same depth (maybe a little more) than the steppes, so they get to glass a few planets deep and the Loroi blast away the "new" fleets with their new pulse cannon fleets and what happens? I mean do you really think the Loroi would have anything of value in border systems? The Umiak can't just waltz through occupied systems without setting off alarms and sensors.

That does make sense, but the Umiak has demonstrated that they can in past offenses that they are regularly able to penetrate Loroi space very deeply. besides, from what KIKI-27 is stating ( if it true, still thinking there's a third party). From what can recalled from the other post about Loroi defences the Loroi don't keep constant forces on their boarders ( and if they do then it would be minimal), but rush force into the breach. even if an alarm was sounded, could the Loroi get enough forces into place to prevent a deep push ( IE a plan C for deep breach, as you've stated O)

The Umiak is definitely overplaying his hand. While it is certainly a tactical surprise and could mark the beginning of the end of the war, really all it means is that the Loroi have to fight the Umiak on more even footing ( or circumvent the cloaking), which clearly in the small war of individual battles they often do quite well.

maybe, maybe not the amount of forces in that battle fleet is fairly large with alot of heavy to Sup-heavy ships. On the other hand, if the Umiak is bluffing then the massive amount of forces might be a reason for the other intercepting fleet destruction.

I mean the US had plans on file for what to do in case of nuclear war when they strike second. Or what happens if the Russians invade via california etc.

but you can't plan for every possibility. IIRC, the Korean war was a surprise to both allied and soviet forces. Granted, the Loroi HQ would have plans to counter even the Umiak invasion of the three homeworlds.

[NOMAD]

I have to disagree Osmium. So far the Loroi have maintained a stalemate purely because of their ability to detect the Umiak. Without that advantage they are sorely outnumbered, and numbers are huge in warfare. A surprise attack with a whole fleet on an unprepared enemy is more or less a coup-de-grace.

And if the Umiak know they won't be detected you can bet they will send an overwhelming force, not some border division. Imagine being stationed on Loroi border defense and seeing a fleet 1000 times bigger than yours jump in. You're blueberry toast.

that probably the situation that keeps alot of the Loroi HG staff up ( maybe even greywind). but the situation is very difficult to read, because of the oort cloud ( ah if this situation was homeworld ( PC game) it would be easy to send some scouts or probe to check things out.

[Tash]

Whats to say they didn't? The Umiak could have been stepping into the Steppes for some time now trying to provoke attacks. How would the Loroi have known if their forward intelligence gathering was reliant on the farseers?

If they'd been attempting to test the jammer through battle, don't you think the Loroi would notice fleets being destroyed? Hell, fleets coming back damaged, and reporting enemies where they shouldn't be.
The most forward intelligence you have in trench warfare are your raiding parties.

I have to disagree Osmium. So far the Loroi have maintained a stalemate purely because of their ability to detect the Umiak. Without that advantage they are sorely outnumbered, and numbers are huge in warfare. A surprise attack with a whole fleet on an unprepared enemy is more or less a coup-de-grace.

And if the Umiak know they won't be detected you can bet they will send an overwhelming force, not some border division. Imagine being stationed on Loroi border defense and seeing a fleet 1000 times bigger than yours jump in. You're blueberry toast.

Possibly, possibly not. A massive invasion fleet needs support, especially the farther it drives into enemy territory, and the more massive the fleet, the more support it needs. Loroi have a number of raider groups due to the line ship losses in Semoset; these units are perfect not just for hit and run attacks, but for harassing and snipping supply lines like Cossack cavalry in Napoleon's Russian campaign.

Umiak have large numerical advantages, but they don't work via magic, and they still need supplies, especially torpedoes; Loroi also have a great deal of experience in defending their own territory, and their supply lines are very short.

I'm not saying this is a matter to downplay; the situation has obviously become very serious. What I'm saying is that defeat for the Loroi is far from certain if they play things smartly.


Anyway, all humanity needs to do is discover the secret of wormhole tech and the war can end.

[dfacto]

Possibly, possibly not. A massive invasion fleet needs support, especially the farther it drives into enemy territory, and the more massive the fleet, the more support it needs. Loroi have a number of raider groups due to the line ship losses in Semoset; these units are perfect not just for hit and run attacks, but for harassing and snipping supply lines like Cossack cavalry in Napoleon's Russian campaign.

Umiak have large numerical advantages, but they don't work via magic, and they still need supplies, especially torpedoes; Loroi also have a great deal of experience in defending their own territory, and their supply lines are very short.

But how will they know where the Umiak supply lines are without the farsensing device?

[Ktrain]

Which, to me at least, all this points at perhaps Arioch's plot is not for 'the human' to help the Loroi destroy or defeat the hated enemy with his deeds or the tactical possibilities humanity could potentially add to the mix but instead its Alex's 'unbiased' humanity that lends a world-view to the conflict to bring about a ...perhaps fragile PEACE between the two obviously mature and intelligent waring species and untie them, at least briefly, to face a common greater threat to both their grand civilizations that their centuries of warfare and tit for tat have blinded them to discovering?

The introduction of a neutral perspective to the conflict might be able to temper the belligerents' attitudes, but that might be exceedingly optimistic. Also I think Alex should go Nuh uh at Beryl's comment, she's just being speciesist

Though humanity might inadvertently act as sort of a biological jammer of sorts and the Loroi figure out that they have to kill Alex to be able to Farsee again.... PLOT RESOLVED. (Or maybe all of our bad radio signals from all our crappy TV have finally reached the Steppes and are subtly destroying Loroi minds.)

Also @ bullshitollogical

Furthermore, the comment about the Orgus using a back door route to humanity is quite interesting, for it could be both exploited by the Loroi but it could also mean that the Bugs are already at Earth and are currently partaking in our Gray Poupon.

[Razor One]

Heres a thought.

What if exposing a farseer to Alex allows them to break through the jamming?

The Loroi can't farsense humans but they can initiate some kind limited telepathic contact when in close proximity.

Bring a farseer close to Alex. Let the farseer try to probe and prod him until they figure out how to spot him despite the lotai effect. Increase range until they can reliably spot him from a distance.

In effect, it would be like teaching the Farseers to farsense again from first principles. It's possible that the technique required need only be learned by one farseer and then passed on telepathically... a kind of Psi-Update to the Loroi's telepathic defense network to plug the hole in their intel.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Something doesn't add up here. If the Loroi really ARE on the verge of defeat as Klik Klak says...why do the Umiak care about the Bell's wreckage at all? The interest of the enemy forces in the object aside, if the Loroi lines really ARE being penetrated by large scale Umiak battle fleets, what should the Umiak care of the Loroi's interest in some blasted space debris? Whatever reason the Loroi were interested in the space ship wreckage is going to become a mute point when the Loroi are militarily defeated. Respect for Stillstorm aside, there shouldn't be any compelling reason to negotiate if this situation is the case.

Theory

-The Umiak do have some Lotai blocking sensor. However they don't have it on the scale that Klick Klak is asserting. Not nearly enough to conceal an entire invasion force large enough to break the Loroi lines.

-The reason for the Umiak insistence on negotiation? They know perfectly well that while the Lotai shouldn't have been able to see them, the unknown 3rd party who wandered into the battle should have been detected. To them, this represents an opportunity to get their hands on a different, possibly superior Lotai blocker in the wreckage of the Terran ship, not considering perhaps, that it's the humans that are naturally resistant to Lotai scanning (an oversight like that would be logical for the tech minded Umiak, who solve much of their problems with science).

[GeoModder]

Ah, a (mechanical?) counter to the Loroi farseeing ability is more or less confirmed.
Now I wonder if the Bellarmine kinda "surprised" the Umiak ship carrying the "cloaking device". That would sure be reason enough for the Umiak to take the "Bell" out ASAP. But I kind of fail to see how large Umiak armada's could bypass Azimol without being detected by normal sensors at some point. Naam is kinda special that it is a proplyd system. I don't suppose these kind of upstart stars are that abundant all over the Steppes and the Maiad border region?

[anticarrot]

Hmm. What if the Umiak are actually (in comparable terms) the 'good guys'? If you think about it, they are more industrious, less concerned about honour, pragmatic, willing to accept surrender, individually pleasant, collectively xenophobic, and rather bad for the enviroment. Sounds like America to me! I mean the Loroi look cute and all, but I wouldn't describe them as particularly likable or clever.

@Rosen_Ritter_1
Because they're people, not hollywood movie monsters? I ask you to put one good reason forwards why they wouldn't be highly interested in space wreckage from an unknown species. Or be so willing to die pointlessly and not have a tiny shred of self preservation? Look funny and talk funny don't count.

The Umiak seem to honestly think they've got this war in the bag. There's a good chance they have. The Loroi try and intercept them in the steppes for a reason. Their rear areas may only be lightly defended. All the Umiak need to do is destroy enough of the Loroi's logistical and industrial infrastructure to make the war untenable. If they've committed enough of their homeworld fleets to this task, they're going to succeed.

Remember, any 'stealth' technology isn't about being invisible, it's about blending into the background noise until it's too late. The F22 is designed to be stealthy a hundred miles away. It isn't from one mile away, because it's assumed that the enemy is dead by then. The Umiak are probably happy to be detected ~12 hours after they emerge in their first non steppes system, because that would give the Loroi only 5 days to arrange a defence, and the Umiak know that's not enough time.

[dex drako]

Keeping in mind yes, the Loroi have a long history of bloodshed with the Umiak and are definitely biased in their opinions of their ancient enemy.

Which, to me at least, all this points at perhaps Arioch's plot is not for 'the human' to help the Loroi destroy or defeat the hated enemy with his deeds or the tactical possibilities humanity could potentially add to the mix but instead its Alex's 'unbiased' humanity that lends a world-view to the conflict to bring about a ...perhaps fragile PEACE between the two obviously mature and intelligent waring species and untie them, at least briefly, to face a common greater threat to both their grand civilizations that their centuries of warfare and tit for tat have blinded them to discovering?

It will be indeed interesting to see how Arioch develops 'humanity's' importance and pivotal role in the unfolding Stellar saga!

I agree with this a 100%.

that's why I think the bugs are telling the truth about the deep raid because it would be a perfect plot line to get the loroi to respect and trust Alex. it would also give Alex and the Loroi a chance to find evadence of this thrid party as they're trying to stop this fleet.

this needs to happen anyway it's only logical that this party has a Psychic cloak as well if is Psychic too. so whatever they do this find this fleet will also have impact on this thrid party if its out there.

[Mjolnir]

But I kind of fail to see how large Umiak armada's could bypass Azimol without being detected by normal sensors at some point.

They don't need to in order to gain a major advantage. If they can't be spotted by farseers directly, a Loroi ship or installation that spots them will have to jump out to a system that has a farseer so the message can be passed on...and assuming their use as a FTL communications network, that farseer can then only relay to other farseers where the Umiak were, not where they are now.

[Mjolnir]

Something doesn't add up here. If the Loroi really ARE on the verge of defeat as Klik Klak says...why do the Umiak care about the Bell's wreckage at all?

The Storm Witch who cost them so much is interested in it, enough so to stand and defend it. She's worth imitating.

[GeoModder]

But I kind of fail to see how large Umiak armada's could bypass Azimol without being detected by normal sensors at some point.

They don't need to in order to gain a major advantage. If they can't be spotted by farseers directly, a Loroi ship or installation that spots them will have to jump out to a system that has a farseer so the message can be passed on...and assuming their use as a FTL communications network, that farseer can then only relay to other farseers where the Umiak were, not where they are now.

Yes, of course. My main point is that the heavy assets of the Loroi Imperial Fleet are NOT on the known frontlines (Steppes and Maiad border), but a tad deeper so they can 'plug the hole' if a sizeable Umiak fleet manages to cross a border area. Anyway, Umiak fleets penetrating deeper in Loroi territory won't know the best routes, and once a hostile fleet location is 'broadcasted' throughout a sector, it shouldn't be too hard to keep dabs on them. Or even to cut off a resupply route.
Yet, I reckon the first month or so invading Umiaks would reign whatever area they enter.
Oh, and appearantly the Tempest has a farseer onboard. Strike Group 51 can broadcast a warning/confirmation of the new Umiak 'Lotai' ability.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Ah, a (mechanical?) counter to the Loroi farseeing ability is more or less confirmed.
Now I wonder if the Bellarmine kinda "surprised" the Umiak ship carrying the "cloaking device". That would sure be reason enough for the Umiak to take the "Bell" out ASAP.

Except they don't need to negotiate with the Loroi for that. They could have just attempted to destroy it when they came in, or move in with enough force that the Loroi would have been forced to destroy it. There's nothing the Umiak can do about the knowledge the Loroi have already gained from the Bell, since the Task Force has to much speed to be pinned and destroyed.

@Rosen_Ritter_1
Because they're people, not hollywood movie monsters? I ask you to put one good reason forwards why they wouldn't be highly interested in space wreckage from an unknown species. Or be so willing to die pointlessly and not have a tiny shred of self preservation? Look funny and talk funny don't count.

The Umiak have plenty of reason to be interested in the wreckage of an unknown species. The question is whether or not this interest would normally rank high enough on front line battle conditions to alter their standard operating procedures. Or whether the Umiak would consider it work a dozen ships and thousands of their crew members dead JUST to find out if the Loroi are interested in defending the ship.

With regards to self preservation. I'll repeat again that the Umiak just sacrificed thousands of lives just a few panels ago to find out how interested the Loroi were in the object. It seems odd, especially for a non suicidal commander like Kikitik to think the average wreckage of an unknown race warranted the loss of thousands of Umiak lives. The Umiak could always find the race that made the ship later, and the Loroi according to Kikitik are going to be out of the equation soon. So there isn't any logic in throwing his crews lives away like this. Unless the Umiak are EXCEPTIONALLY interested in the bell.

Remember, any 'stealth' technology isn't about being invisible, it's about blending into the background noise until it's too late. The F22 is designed to be stealthy a hundred miles away. It isn't from one mile away, because it's assumed that the enemy is dead by then. The Umiak are probably happy to be detected ~12 hours after they emerge in their first non steppes system, because that would give the Loroi only 5 days to arrange a defence, and the Umiak know that's not enough time.

The problem is that the Steppe is a huge, multi system spanning no mans land which neither side controls. And even though hiding a fleet in most systems is hard, hiding a fleet moving in another system is relatively easy due to light speed lag. That's why the Loroi Lotai provided them with such an advantage. They have weeks, if not months to see where the Umiak are heading, to harass them with interdiction fleets and to amass their forces where they hit.

Anything that can block the Lotai is of extreme interest to the Umiak.