Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

What about, instead of some privateer force harassing another nation's shipping, that a junction commander starts jacking up the fees on cargo vessels?

Interstellar shipping is the TCA's jurisdiction; individual colonial nations can't just levy fees on passing ships because they feel like it, any more than a small town can set up a toll booth on US 101. If a colony thinks it's owed compensation for the use of its infrastructure, it has to go to the TCA for approval (and likely enforcement; it's hard to make a starship stop). But considering that most of the navigation infrastructure in any system is probably supplied and maintained by the TCA... you get the picture.

If a station owner wants to jack up their docking fees and charge outrageous prices for their supplies, well... that just sounds like capitalism to me. But at this point, there are very few places where you are going to be only game in town. It's only five jumps from Sol to 82 Eridani, and a ship doesn't have to refuel at every jump. If you charge too much, chances are people will take their business to someone else.

There are only four inhabited systems in Terran space; the eyes of the law are almost always on you. This isn't the Wild West just yet.

[discord]

and probably will not be any time soon, due to the military buildup, those ships have to do something before they engage in the fighting(military escorts doing picket duty help out the local customs guys.) and once the war is over there will be plenty of surplus military ships for the customs guys to inherit....

there may however be a window of opportunity when most of the military is otherwise engaged, but the penalty for 'piracy' during wartimes tend to be....swift and without mercy.

so no, will not be any wild west themes any time soon imho.

[Zakharra]

and probably will not be any time soon, due to the military buildup, those ships have to do something before they engage in the fighting(military escorts doing picket duty help out the local customs guys.) and once the war is over there will be plenty of surplus military ships for the customs guys to inherit....

there may however be a window of opportunity when most of the military is otherwise engaged, but the penalty for 'piracy' during wartimes tend to be....swift and without mercy.

so no, will not be any wild west themes any time soon imho.

Not to mention any colony or corporation caught endorsing/aiding such piracy will not survive very long. I'd think that the TCA and the other colonies and corporations would have a very dim view of pirates.

[saint of m]

How advance will cetain counties be? fterall we have plenty of nations that are at first world level today, and many more that are thrid world.

WOuld they comparitivly in the time of the story, still be thrid world, or would things have changed in various countires where supper powers are now impoverished and some third world are top dog?

[GeoModder]

I reckon some of the so-called third world countries of today will have become stupendously wealthy just by sitting on the equator (space elevators).

[Arioch]

I expect that most nations of Earth will be very well developed (by today's standards) 150 years from now. However, I have no doubt that there will still be places in the world where people insist on living in squalor at the very lowest levels of technology. There will always be throwbacks.

[Murica]

Does humanity have mobile ground based weapons that can shot accurately into space ? They would have to be very mobile in order not to become sitting ducks

[Karst45]

I reckon some of the so-called third world countries of today will have become stupendously wealthy just by sitting on the equator (space elevators).

before we have space elevator, we will need to do quite a cleaning of the Geostationary orbit or fear a Kessler effect.

[GeoModder]

I reckon some of the so-called third world countries of today will have become stupendously wealthy just by sitting on the equator (space elevators).

before we have space elevator, we will need to do quite a cleaning of the Geostationary orbit or fear a Kessler effect.

The geostationary orbit isn't really the problem. It's the stuff whizzing around in low(er) orbit that could cause collisions.

[Arioch]

I think cleanup of space junk is going to be a necessity. I recall someone saying that having services like those in PLANETES where they go out and grab each piece individually would not be feasible, but I don't really see an alternative. Maybe you could have robots that go around and knock things out of orbit, but I can imagine that creating as much new debris as it removes.

Does humanity have mobile ground based weapons that can shot accurately into space ? They would have to be very mobile in order not to become sitting ducks

Current surface navy vessels have weapons that can reach orbit; they are mobile, but I think the mobility has more to do with flexibility and deployment, and limited range, than it has to do with dodging. Orbit is only a few hundred kilometers from the surface; I don't think most surface ships could even move a single ship length in the one or two seconds it would take a mass driver round to travel from low orbit to the surface.

Inland lasers or missile stations placed to protect cities would probably not need to be mobile; they would be last-ditch close-in defenses akin to the Phalanx, and not primary defenses that would be expected to thwart a sustained attack. Ground bases are not ideal for space combat for a variety of reasons.

[Absalom]

I think cleanup of space junk is going to be a necessity. I recall someone saying that having services like those in PLANETES where they go out and grab each piece individually would not be feasible, but I don't really see an alternative. Maybe you could have robots that go around and knock things out of orbit, but I can imagine that creating as much new debris as it removes.

1) Lasers have been suggested, which for some stuff (high surface area to mass ratio, in an orbit too high to be grabbed by the atmosphere already) I would assume will happen to some level.

2) A possibility that I once read in some sci-fi book was to have a very thin sheet of gold that you just ran into things. At orbital speed differentials the gold that was physically hit would turn into plasma, thereby exerting a small rocket-effect in opposition to the vector of the impacting object. Fortunately, this should be doable with materials other than gold, as it's basically a variant of the Whipple shield.

3) Then there's "space drones" equipped with "proper" Whipple shields designed to stop the object the first time, rather than just slow it down a little. This is useful for a smaller variety of objects than possibility 2, but also does more of the job at once.

4) Finally, there's the space-tug method. Just match the orbit, grab on, and move it somewhere (presumably one of the disposal orbits, unless you're really close to LEO already).

Of those four, 2 - 4 require propulsion and maneuvering, but hopefully that could be accomplished with a combination of flywheels (for quick rotations) and several magnetic tethers (several so that you can switch them on and off to control and compensate for rotation, I'd say that 3 is a safe "absolute minimum, but really, add a few more" value; magnetic because I'd be dubious about using an electric tether beyond LEO).

[Mr.Tucker]

I think cleanup of space junk is going to be a necessity. I recall someone saying that having services like those in PLANETES where they go out and grab each piece individually would not be feasible, but I don't really see an alternative. Maybe you could have robots that go around and knock things out of orbit, but I can imagine that creating as much new debris as it removes.

1) Lasers have been suggested, which for some stuff (high surface area to mass ratio, in an orbit too high to be grabbed by the atmosphere already) I would assume will happen to some level.

2) A possibility that I once read in some sci-fi book was to have a very thin sheet of gold that you just ran into things. At orbital speed differentials the gold that was physically hit would turn into plasma, thereby exerting a small rocket-effect in opposition to the vector of the impacting object. Fortunately, this should be doable with materials other than gold, as it's basically a variant of the Whipple shield.

3) Then there's "space drones" equipped with "proper" Whipple shields designed to stop the object the first time, rather than just slow it down a little. This is useful for a smaller variety of objects than possibility 2, but also does more of the job at once.

4) Finally, there's the space-tug method. Just match the orbit, grab on, and move it somewhere (presumably one of the disposal orbits, unless you're really close to LEO already).

Of those four, 2 - 4 require propulsion and maneuvering, but hopefully that could be accomplished with a combination of flywheels (for quick rotations) and several magnetic tethers (several so that you can switch them on and off to control and compensate for rotation, I'd say that 3 is a safe "absolute minimum, but really, add a few more" value; magnetic because I'd be dubious about using an electric tether beyond LEO).

Indeed, both "laser brooms" and particle beam projectors have been proposed to clear orbital space of debris. I'm inclined to believe particle beams would be more efficient at this, since they can impart more momentum into a target (particles having mass, unlike photons). They would sweep orbital space and nudge the debris into a decaying orbit, over several passes if need be (interestingly, while doing my little foray into Magbeams, I found that this was another potential application). However, arranging a rendezvous between a piece of debris and a collecting drone seems both time consuming and inefficient, unless said debris was of considerable size. Sending a drone to crash into orbiting particles may work, but would also take considerable time (new debris is produced each day), and it's hard to imagine sending a 50kg satellite simply to collect a debris the size of a bolt.
Magnetic tethers require good timing (and trying not to get hit by other things while maneuvering the large structure to collect the primary target), and debris generally have erratic orbits, so it would be, again, difficult and time consuming (they are still marvelous for orbital maneuvering of ships ).

[Karst45]

I think cleanup of space junk is going to be a necessity. I recall someone saying that having services like those in PLANETES where they go out and grab each piece individually would not be feasible, but I don't really see an alternative. Maybe you could have robots that go around and knock things out of orbit, but I can imagine that creating as much new debris as it removes.

actually one of the solution they tought is a laser "space broom" Using laser to heat up the debris facing us, it supposed to push it in higher "graveyard" orbit. but frankly, i didnt understand all of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_broom

[Suederwind]

actually one of the solution they tought is a laser "space broom" Using laser to heat up the debris facing us, it supposed to push it in higher "graveyard" orbit. but frankly, i didnt understand all of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_broom

Hm... maybe that Wired article linked on wikipedia helps a bit? Link


I hope you don't mind adding a few questions (sorry if they have been asked before)?

1. Whats with the systems in the human "sphere of influence" that have no colonies, are there small outposts/research installations/refuel stations/whatever... or are they completely uninhabited?
2. Is some of the food aboard human (or Loroi) ships grown aboard?
3. Do the various human nations still have ftl capable ships of their own or are they all corporate/TCA owned?

[Arioch]

1. Whats with the systems in the human "sphere of influence" that have no colonies, are there small outposts/research installations/refuel stations/whatever... or are they completely uninhabited?

Most are uninhabited. A few have research or resource extraction outposts. Most have some basic unmanned infrastructure: system buoys, navigational beacons, data collection stations.

2. Is some of the food aboard human (or Loroi) ships grown aboard?

Larger Loroi vessels (like Tempest) have an arboretum in which they grow some plants for consumption; mainly Perrein Shadowlands fungoids. Some Terran vessels might have similar facilities, but I imagine Bellarmine was probably too small.

3. Do the various human nations still have ftl capable ships of their own or are they all corporate/TCA owned?

Sure, the larger nations and collectives would own and operate a number of FTL ships, including some armed vessels. These would need to comply with the TCA treaty limitations.

[Absalom]

I think cleanup of space junk is going to be a necessity. I recall someone saying that having services like those in PLANETES where they go out and grab each piece individually would not be feasible, but I don't really see an alternative. Maybe you could have robots that go around and knock things out of orbit, but I can imagine that creating as much new debris as it removes.

1) Lasers have been suggested, which for some stuff (high surface area to mass ratio, in an orbit too high to be grabbed by the atmosphere already) I would assume will happen to some level.

2) A possibility that I once read in some sci-fi book was to have a very thin sheet of gold that you just ran into things. At orbital speed differentials the gold that was physically hit would turn into plasma, thereby exerting a small rocket-effect in opposition to the vector of the impacting object. Fortunately, this should be doable with materials other than gold, as it's basically a variant of the Whipple shield.

3) Then there's "space drones" equipped with "proper" Whipple shields designed to stop the object the first time, rather than just slow it down a little. This is useful for a smaller variety of objects than possibility 2, but also does more of the job at once.

4) Finally, there's the space-tug method. Just match the orbit, grab on, and move it somewhere (presumably one of the disposal orbits, unless you're really close to LEO already).

Of those four, 2 - 4 require propulsion and maneuvering, but hopefully that could be accomplished with a combination of flywheels (for quick rotations) and several magnetic tethers (several so that you can switch them on and off to control and compensate for rotation, I'd say that 3 is a safe "absolute minimum, but really, add a few more" value; magnetic because I'd be dubious about using an electric tether beyond LEO).

Indeed, both "laser brooms" and particle beam projectors have been proposed to clear orbital space of debris. I'm inclined to believe particle beams would be more efficient at this, since they can impart more momentum into a target (particles having mass, unlike photons). They would sweep orbital space and nudge the debris into a decaying orbit, over several passes if need be (interestingly, while doing my little foray into Magbeams, I found that this was another potential application).

I was thinking lasers since you can have just a few installations (one, two, three) with huge mirrors and/or lenses to cover roughly the entire Earth-Moon system. I'm not certain that we could reliably aim a particle beam at those ranges.

However, arranging a rendezvous between a piece of debris and a collecting drone seems both time consuming and inefficient, unless said debris was of considerable size.

Yes, well, I figure that a bolt would probably get hit by a laser, as would e.g. paint chips. I haven't looked up any surveys of the debris, but for the physical methods I was thinking "high-mass high-vaporization-temperature bolt in high orbit" to "large satellite".

Sending a drone to crash into orbiting particles may work, but would also take considerable time (new debris is produced each day), and it's hard to imagine sending a 50kg satellite simply to collect a debris the size of a bolt.

Bear in mind that I have NEVER looked for the generation rates of debris, I was just figuring that anything you would deal with via physical technique would be appropriately high-mass, or otherwise difficult to deal with. I was thinking that as you move into the higher numbered options, you would also be moving to ever larger objects. 4 would presumably be the choice used for full-size satellites. 2 would presumably always be used for something that was small enough to be vaporized after one or two hits but too large to get in a reasonable time with lasers (extra points if the sheet is moving against the rotation of the Earth). Choosing between 2 & 3 would be a bit of an issue, but I assume that there might be something that 3 would be the best choice for.

Magnetic tethers require good timing (and trying not to get hit by other things while maneuvering the large structure to collect the primary target), and debris generally have erratic orbits, so it would be, again, difficult and time consuming (they are still marvelous for orbital maneuvering of ships ).

I suggested magnetic tethers so that the most likely sources of future small debris could be dealt with over time. Ion engines would also be an option, but I think that for this use-case a powered tether system is best, since you never have to refuel . A fairly large MHD or "Lifter" drive might be of interest for LEO maneuvering, too, as would an electric tether system (which, of course, could be integrated into the magnetic tethers). Lots of interesting ideas with this subject .

[Suederwind]

Most are uninhabited. A few have research or resource extraction outposts. Most have some basic unmanned infrastructure: system buoys, navigational beacons, data collection stations.

So no TCA installations? How often are most of these systems visited by TCA or other human ships?

Larger Loroi vessels (like Tempest) have an arboretum in which they grow some plants for consumption; mainly Perrein Shadowlands fungoids. Some Terran vessels might have similar facilities, but I imagine Bellarmine was probably too small.

Can I imagine those arboretums aboard a Loroi ship more like a greenhouse or a farm of some sort? I have a hard time imagine that they really carry some Perrein trees aboard Tempest or other vessels to grew some mushrooms. And sorry for the OT in this thread.

Sure, the larger nations and collectives would own and operate a number of FTL ships, including some armed vessels. These would need to comply with the TCA treaty limitations.

So what kind of limitations are we speaking of? Limited numbers of ships per nation?

[Arioch]

So no TCA installations? How often are most of these systems visited by TCA or other human ships?

If there isn't a colony or outpost or some kind of transit depot in the system, there isn't much need for a manned installation. Systems are visited periodically by patrol vessels to collect data from any navigational buoys (which record system transits) or other recording stations present in the system, but in remote systems it may be years between visits.

Can I imagine those arboretums aboard a Loroi ship more like a greenhouse or a farm of some sort? I have a hard time imagine that they really carry some Perrein trees aboard Tempest or other vessels to grew some mushrooms.

Even farm plants can be recreational when they're the only respite from the somewhat sterile, cold, dry environment of a Loroi starship. And in particular, the bioluminescent Perrein fungoids are quite exotic, and the dark, damp environment can be comforting to nostalgic Perrein natives.

So what kind of limitations are we speaking of? Limited numbers of ships per nation?

Regarding armed vessels, there would be limits to number, tonnage and types of weaponry. The only limits of unarmed starships would be that they be properly registered and operated and maintained within the safety rules established.

[discord]

never really understood the need to heavily regulate weapons on space ships...since pretty much however you twist and turn or how heavily you arm the ship, the most dangerous thing on the ship is the SHIP, so removing weapons do not really deter someone going 'loco' since the most dangerous weapon is still there....

the biggest problem is of course someone going postal, at that point the person is not rational and might decide that ramming is a good idea, someone NOT irrational is unlikely to commit a act of aggression to begin with so carrying weapons is not a problem...this leads to the interesting paradox that allowing civilian ships to carry weapons actually make them LESS dangerous in the hands of someone going postal.

[junk]

Does humanity have mobile ground based weapons that can shot accurately into space ? They would have to be very mobile in order not to become sitting ducks

A space born attacker can technically attack you from the other side of the system if he so desires and you have no way to stop him from the ground.

Plus if you want defensive structures, why not build them in orbit anyway.

Which reminds me - I wanted to ask, did the humans try or attempt any uplift projects?
On canines, marine mammals like dolphins, apes or cephalopods.

And in the case they did, and were at least rudimentary successfull, how would other species react to such a project. The barsam might be for instance taken back by uplifted dolphins considering them to have ties to the pol?