Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

Have there ever been Loroi fossils discovered? Fossils or mummies dating back anywhere between the Soia Empire's collapse and the Era of Reunification? Not just on the Sister Worlds but any of the other known planets/moons in Union space? Could you name a few examples?

There are a variety of Loroi remains on the three Sister Worlds dating back to Fall, but none are known from before that period or on planets other than those three.

Have scientists ever studied these remains? Recovered genetic material from these remains? Have there ever been suggestions to recreate these specimens to satisfy Loroi’s scientific questions? By recreate I mean through procedures like cloning?

They have done the same sorts of analyses that we do... in particular, genetic analysis tells you a lot about how groups are related and when they diverged. They were able to determine that the populations on all three Sister Worlds shared a recent common ancestor, and that there was a severe population bottleneck in which the population was reduced to a very small number at several points. This data would also be used to track changes and migrations on each of the three worlds since their arrival, though this record only goes back roughly 200 thousand years.

Genetic analysis also allows some insight into the deeper past, using the "molecular clock" to track changes and mutations over deep time to establish a rough framework and timeline for the evolution of a species and its divergence from other related species. This analysis does not reveal much for the Loroi, since there are no related species to compare with, and because it seems clear that the genomes have been artificially modified. Other Soia-Liron species have a common genetic framework, but since they were engineered, looking for common ancestry is difficult and may be fruitless (since there may not ever have been a common ancestor), and it is difficult to track ancient mutations when ultra-tech medicine seems to have removed those mutations from the genome.

I'm not sure why they would try cloning a fossil specimen. I can't think of any questions that would answer.

[Snoofman]

There are a variety of Loroi remains on the three Sister Worlds dating back to Fall, but none are known from before that period or on planets other than those three.

Have scientists ever studied these remains? Recovered genetic material from these remains? Have there ever been suggestions to recreate these specimens to satisfy Loroi’s scientific questions? By recreate I mean through procedures like cloning?

They have done the same sorts of analyses that we do... in particular, genetic analysis tells you a lot about how groups are related and when they diverged. They were able to determine that the populations on all three Sister Worlds shared a recent common ancestor, and that there was a severe population bottleneck in which the population was reduced to a very small number at several points. This data would also be used to track changes and migrations on each of the three worlds since their arrival, though this record only goes back roughly 200 thousand years.

Genetic analysis also allows some insight into the deeper past, using the "molecular clock" to track changes and mutations over deep time to establish a rough framework and timeline for the evolution of a species and its divergence from other related species. This analysis does not reveal much for the Loroi, since there are no related species to compare with, and because it seems clear that the genomes have been artificially modified. Other Soia-Liron species have a common genetic framework, but since they were engineered, looking for common ancestry is difficult and may be fruitless (since there may not ever have been a common ancestor), and it is difficult to track ancient mutations when ultra-tech medicine seems to have removed those mutations from the genome.

I'm not sure why they would try cloning a fossil specimen. I can't think of any questions that would answer.

Maybe for the same reasons there have been propositions to bring back mammoths. To see what the species was like in Real life. To test if perhaps the recreated Loroi possessed a psychic capability distinct to modern Loroi. I know genes don’t affect sanzai. But they do affect the construction and configuration of the brain… which in turn gives rise to sanzai.

[Arioch]

Maybe for the same reasons there have been propositions to bring back mammoths. To see what the species was like in Real life. To test if perhaps the recreated Loroi possessed a psychic capability distinct to modern Loroi. I know genes don’t affect sanzai. But they do affect the construction and configuration of the brain… which in turn gives rise to sanzai.

But the Loroi aren't an extinct species... the Loroi know very well what Loroi are like.

I mean, we could theoretically clone an archaic Homo sapiens, but it wouldn't tell us very much about what they were like. Cloning is an inherently artificial process; you have to plug gaps in the genome, and you're missing a lot of crucial epigenetic information, and the baby would be birthed from a modern human surrogate mother and raised by modern humans. The resulting child would be a modern human with some archaic human DNA. (And never mind the ethical considerations of experimenting on human subjects...)

If we cloned a mammoth or a tyrannosaur, that might give us some useful information about what they were like... such as, for example, whether tyrannosaurs had feathers. But we would have to be aware that the animal produced in such a process would not be a real mammoth or tyrannosaur; we couldn't know for sure what traits were original and what traits were an artifact of the creation process. Among other things, it may have picked up epigenetic traits from whatever was used as a surrogate mother.

[D-503]

Genetic analysis also allows some insight into the deeper past, using the "molecular clock" to track changes and mutations over deep time to establish a rough framework and timeline for the evolution of a species and its divergence from other related species. This analysis does not reveal much for the Loroi, since there are no related species to compare with

!: "were!"
Now there is someone...

And i´m pretty sure ONE of the many reasons for the haste to rush him to the capital is somewhere in his genetics...

[Snoofman]

Maybe for the same reasons there have been propositions to bring back mammoths. To see what the species was like in Real life. To test if perhaps the recreated Loroi possessed a psychic capability distinct to modern Loroi. I know genes don’t affect sanzai. But they do affect the construction and configuration of the brain… which in turn gives rise to sanzai.

But the Loroi aren't an extinct species... the Loroi know very well what Loroi are like.

As if 'twer not obvious enough

[Demarquis]

I seem to remember Arioch stating that humans and Loroi are not genetically related. That we were used as a physical template for visible characteristics, but the Loroi genetic code isn't derived from ours.

[Moon Moth]

I seem to remember Arioch stating that humans and Loroi are not genetically related. That we were used as a physical template for visible characteristics, but the Loroi genetic code isn't derived from ours.

I don't recall the specifics, but the model I've been using is decompiling a binary computer program into source code, cleaning it up and making a few tweaks, and then recompiling it for a different platform. On the one hand, there's no low-level similarity, but on the other hand, it's clearly "derived" from the original. Humans and chimpanzees share a lot of DNA, but whatever biochemistry the Loroi use is going to be very different than anything on our planet. And yet, at a slightly higher level, it still does the same stuff as in humans: it makes 2 arms and 2 legs and 5 digits on each limb and feet that can wear the same shoes and faces that are still recognizable as "us" to both sides, in a way that chimpanzee faces aren't.

There's a bit of explanation about the Barsam and Nibiren here, and the Loroi and humans are almost certainly a parallel case:

https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_barsam.html

In one way (the Soia-Liron biochemistry), the Loroi are more closely related to the Barsam, but in another way (the template used to build the life-form), they're more closely related to humans.

[Zorg56]

How much magnification does scope on Beryl rifle have?

[Arioch]

How much magnification does scope on Beryl rifle have?

It's more of a gunsight than a scope, but it's digital, so the magnification is variable.

[Bamax]

Would Loroi ladies freak out if they saw a ridiculously muscled over masculine guy on par with Gigachad man?
Would they be intimidated lol? Slightly lust after him (fringe Loroi I know, since they prefer boyish looking types, not some overmuscled gigachad)?

[Snoofman]

Would Loroi ladies freak out if they saw a ridiculously muscled over masculine guy on par with Gigachad man?
Would they be intimidated lol? Slightly lust after him (fringe Loroi I know, since they prefer boyish looking types, not some overmuscled gigachad)?

I think they would find his chin hideous.

[Urist]

Would Loroi ladies freak out if they saw a ridiculously muscled over masculine guy on par with Gigachad man?

Honestly, given that most *humans* tend to stop and stare at someone that unusual, probably about the same. Essentially, they'd react the same way human women would to meeting, say, Andre the Giant. "Wow, you look *weird*. Not 'hot' weird, but cool. Can I get your autograph?"

[Urist]

A question that I'm not sure fits in this Loroi Q&A thread (although many loroi would disagree...)

When the Soia's Dreadstars/tonsillat/moon-ships are described as "moon-sized," is there a more accurate estimate for their scale? Since at least for the Sol system, we've got moons ranging in diameter from ~12 kilometers (Deimos, over Mars) up to ~5,300 km (Ganymede, over Jupiter). While even a 12-km size would still be safely into the category of "Wow, that's a big ship" by the scales of Outsider warships, something closer to Ganymede may be a bit more appropriate for an empire that apparently lasted several hundred thousand years.

[Arioch]

Would Loroi ladies freak out if they saw a ridiculously muscled over masculine guy on par with Gigachad man?
Would they be intimidated lol? Slightly lust after him (fringe Loroi I know, since they prefer boyish looking types, not some overmuscled gigachad)?

Reactions would vary by individual.

Most Loroi are used to seeing Barsam and other aliens which are much larger and more powerful than any human, so I doubt they would find a muscled man intimidating. (Also, Loroi are not known as brawlers anyway.)

In terms of attractiveness, the typical ideal is more like what you suggest, but not everyone has the same tastes. Some human men find female bodybuilders repulsive, but there are others who find them attractive.

When the Soia's Dreadstars/tonsillat/moon-ships are described as "moon-sized," is there a more accurate estimate for their scale? Since at least for the Sol system, we've got moons ranging in diameter from ~12 kilometers (Deimos, over Mars) up to ~5,300 km (Ganymede, over Jupiter). While even a 12-km size would still be safely into the category of "Wow, that's a big ship" by the scales of Outsider warships, something closer to Ganymede may be a bit more appropriate for an empire that apparently lasted several hundred thousand years.

The sources for the existence of the dread-stars are all ancient legends, which mostly lack specific measurements (and those which are more specific are almost certainly unreliable). I think the most credible thing that the various sources have to say about the scale of the dread-stars is that some describe them as "moons," and others as "flying cities." Make of that what you will.

[inxsi]

Have any loroi societies not had their warriors go through a diral band process? Or have a tradition of promoting civilians to warrior for acts of heroism?

[Arioch]

Have any loroi societies not had their warriors go through a diral band process? Or have a tradition of promoting civilians to warrior for acts of heroism?

The short answer is: In the current Loroi system, a civilian Loroi can never become a warrior. She might be able to earn the privilege to have a daughter who can undergo the trials and possibly become a warrior, but the civilian mother herself never can. There are local Loroi societies that don't follow this system, but those societies aren't given the legal right to determine whether an individual has warrior status outside that society.

The longer answer is:

Warrior status varied greatly over time and in different locations. The civilian class was a specific creation of iron-age Mestirot Deinar society as part of the caste system that was used to control population and end the cycle of overpopulation and collapse that had frustrated the development of civilization. Prior to that and in other cultures that had not adopted the caste system, there was no specific legal distinction between warrior and civilian. For those groups, everyone in your tribe was a warrior, and everyone not in your tribe was... an outsider who you were perpetually at war with.

The current Loroi government is federal, and so local governments have a lot of say in how local society is structured. However, when it comes to addressing federal responsibilities and privileges, these are subject to federal regulations. It's possible to have a local government that changes the traditional way that social status is determined, but in order for that local status to translate into federal status (such as would be required for military service), that system must be certified by the federal authority. And such certification is only given to local governments that follow the rules of the warrior caste system.

An example of this is any of various traditionalist tribes which can be found on all three Sister Worlds: traditional hunter-gatherer societies living on the fringes of civilization that maintain their own traditions and culture without regard to federal authority, and they are allowed to do so on the understanding that they forgo both the benefits and responsibilities of warrior status. And so even though in their own culture these tribes members may consider themselves to be warriors (and may have their own warrior rites), they are legally civilians as far as the federal government in concerned.

Similarly, in some colonies where civilian entities have very powerful interests (such as Maia and Donei), local governments can grant civilians almost any rights that are usually reserved for warriors: local government franchise, reproductive rights, government jobs, etc. However, in order for a local government to declare a person to be a warrior in a way that has any meaning outside local borders, that local government must be licensed to so by the federal government. And any local government that did any of the above would automatically lose that license.

I think it's worth pointing out that most Loroi civilians don't want to be warriors... that's why they dropped out of the warrior trials in the first place. Warrior privilege comes at the cost of warrior responsibility (and warrior austerity). There are some civilian plutocrats that desire the prestige of having warrior children, but not many of those have any interest in giving up their own cushy civilian lifestyles.

[inxsi]

Thank you for the response. Would the local clans still use the term "tiris" for those they recognize as warriors while the federal government would call them civilians, or would the federal government have a different term for them? Is there a term for becoming a warrior? Or for a warrior proving themselves in battle for the first time?

[Arioch]

Would the local clans still use the term "tiris" for those they recognize as warriors while the federal government would call them civilians, or would the federal government have a different term for them? Is there a term for becoming a warrior? Or for a warrior proving themselves in battle for the first time?

The Loroi use a variety of terms for warriors and civilians. The world Loroi itself means "warrior," though it is not usually used in that context.

Pirot is the most general term for a warrior. This is the word Stillstorm used when she said of Alex, "It does not look like a warrior." The term pirot telabel is sometimes used to refer to the warrior class in general.

Terminology for throwback tribeswomen varies, but they most often call themselves pirot or talas ("hunter"). Though there are some hardcore groups that, like the Teidar, do not use the spoken word at all.

Tiris means "fighter" but is most often used as a specific rank, the equivalent of junior lieutenant.

Sirein means literally "soldier," but it is often used as an adjective to mean "military." Sirein telabel is another commonly used term for the warrior class.

Soroin is a specific warrior caste, but the term is sometimes used to refer to the warrior class or all things military. Soroin nasi is sometimes used to mean "warship" instead of the more literal ashrin.

Civilians are most often called sobedi ("worker"), but a broader catch-all term is sal sirein ("not military"), which would also refer to tribeswomen who were martial but technically neither workers nor official military. Males are also technically sal sirein.

A more derogatory term for workers sometimes used by warriors is sinadas, "fallen."

[D-503]

A more derogatory term for workers sometimes used by warriors is sinadas, "fallen."

This somehow reminds me of Hongkong in the 90ies, where the chinese people called the british expats "filth" - "Failed In London, Try Hongkong"...

But seriously, i appreciate your effort with the Loroi language, and the languages (Umiak eg) in general.

Did you know that Tolkien first developed the elvish languages, and only then wrote his books that grew out of them?

[Arioch]

Did you know that Tolkien first developed the elvish languages, and only then wrote his books that grew out of them?

Yes. He was an Oxford language professor... messing around with languages was what he did for a living.