Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[spacewhale]

Would close/intimate relationships with humans be frowned upon, tolerated or accepted? What about the adoption of certain human customs, traditions, art or music making their way into Loroi life?

I imagine tourism and trade would both spur up, but it's still a hell of a trip from Hooman space to Union space. Can't imagine much would stop thirsty space elf amazons from quenching their thirst with pioneering hoomans, but there'd be some vastly different expectations of what would constitute a relationship with a species that largely eschews monogamy. Humans could fill in a commerce role similar to non-Loroi in the Union, given what I assume to be the relative sophistication of human commercial practices compared to a warrior race like the Loroi who balk at civilian activities.

[QuakeIV]

Its kindof a good point that if humans are actually somehow a product of the weird precursors then there might be human presences other than the one on earth already. That does establish the possibility that there might be humans involved in the huge umiak breakthrough force.

[Mk_C]

Its kindof a good point that if humans are actually somehow a product of the weird precursors then there might be human presences other than the one on earth already. That does establish the possibility that there might be humans involved in the huge umiak breakthrough force.

If that was the case, I doubt anyone would be so surprised by encountering them now. Certainly they would be more well known across the bubble.

And more importantly - HUMAN scout ship Bellarmine tripping over the first movements of a new Hierarchy strategic offensive utilizing previously unknown way to blind Farseers is an absurd coincidence. HUMAN scout ship Bellarmine tripping over the first movements of a new Hierarchy strategic offensive utilizing HUMANS is not an absurd coincidence - it's a straight up comical one.

[Murph]

And more importantly can Tempo sense his thoughts while he is asleep? She does not appear to be in the pile up at this time. Could she have relieved Fireblade?

[QuakeIV]

I'd point out that the bugs don't necessarily seem all that surprised, and they would be the only ones having actually made contact with this hypothetical separate group of humans. They were interested in the bellarmine wreckage but if they are in contact with a completely different group of humans, then it would obviously bear no design provenance that they would recognize, and I don't know that they were even made aware of the human on the bridge with Tempo, so for all they know this is some totally unknown third party separate from the hypothetical humans that they may or may not have possession of.

[boldilocks]

I'd point out that the bugs don't necessarily seem all that surprised, and they would be the only ones having actually made contact with this hypothetical separate group of humans. They were interested in the bellarmine wreckage but if they are in contact with a completely different group of humans, then it would obviously bear no design provenance that they would recognize, and I don't know that they were even made aware of the human on the bridge with Tempo, so for all they know this is some totally unknown third party separate from the hypothetical humans that they may or may not have possession of.

Possibly their only interest in the wreckage was that the loroi were interested in it.

[Jagged]

I'd point out that the bugs don't necessarily seem all that surprised, and they would be the only ones having actually made contact with this hypothetical separate group of humans. They were interested in the bellarmine wreckage but if they are in contact with a completely different group of humans, then it would obviously bear no design provenance that they would recognize, and I don't know that they were even made aware of the human on the bridge with Tempo, so for all they know this is some totally unknown third party separate from the hypothetical humans that they may or may not have possession of.

Possibly their only interest in the wreckage was that the loroi were interested in it.

I think QuakeIV's theory is sound. If the Bugs had already encountered another scout or group of humans then they might recognise the Bellarmine and decide the most important thing to do is prevent them making contact with the Loroi. Especially if they already had an inkling of their farsense immunities.

[Mk_C]

I think QuakeIV's theory is sound. If the Bugs had already encountered another scout or group of humans then they might recognise the Bellarmine and decide the most important thing to do is prevent them making contact with the Loroi. Especially if they already had an inkling of their farsense immunities.

Eeeh. It's convoluted.

[White]

Hey, I've got several questions and thought I'd just dump them here for discussion.


I was looking over the comic and, on pg 6, there's a ship displayed on the screen console. Is there any word on whether that's meant to depict the ship that fired on them?

https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider006.html

If so, I think it rules out the historians as suspects, as they have reaction-less drives.



On page 73, still storm says "hold the line" and, notably, "keep the handle on the blade."

Later on, Talon says something along the lines of, "this shuttle does not fly from the back seat."

About Loroi language. I remember reading that Loroi telepathy is very literal, and their language is similarly so. Are these phrases an artifact of translation, or does Loroi thought allow for more abstract phraseology?

Or, alternatively, was she being very literal? Is 'blade' perhaps just their word for control stick, and so on.



Also, I was wondering why Alexander would decline to tell them about the other scout ships? He seems very ready to tell them the location of earth; given that, the existence of other scout ships seems like a comparatively minor matter in terms of security while being very important with regards to his diplomatic station. Also, now that he has a starmap of enemy territory, would he know where the other scout-ships are in relation to the major combatants?



And, about Loroi civilians, what is the societal line about their status? I mean, how does modern loroi civilization justify keeping them as an underclass.

As a high tech society, I imagine they should have enough genetic and statistical knowledge to realize that the idea of inherent civilian inferiority seems unlikely.

In fact, the fact that they will recruit telekinetic civilians seems to be a glaring realization of this fact. On earth, as far as I know, while there were exceptions where members of the underclass could rise up, there weren't any consistent exceptions.

And, even before Loroi got advanced technology, was there any notion that, pricked with a needle, do they not all bleed blue?

Were there any movements to dissolve the societal line between civilian and warriors. (Mind, this wouldn't mean getting rid of the caste system, just allowing civilians to more readily enter into warrior society.)




About the early stages of the Loroi Umaik war. I remember reading that there was a - civilian backed - coup because the new emperor was about to nationalize industries. This, if I have my timelines right, happened after the Loroi lost a whole lot of territory, (territory that would later be subject to a genocide) and after the head of their state had been killed in battle along with their flagship.

Like, what?

I mean, even 1940's, post-gilded age, monopoly mustache america manged to get it's act together for World War Two. And nobody even took American territory.

I find this surprising because I imagined the Loroi would be a bit more patriotic than that. I also find it surprising that the civilian underlclass could, or would, support such an insubstantial coup against what was very clearly a necessary move. This seems in stark contrast to the civilian led American response in WWII.

Of course, I don't mean to say this is bad or completely unbelievable. I think it's an interesting turn. I just wanted to use the opportunity to ask more about Loroi society.




Also, notably, I wanted to ask about the genocides of Loroi territory. More specifically, I wanted to ask about how the Loroi high-command who were in charge of the captured territory are remembered.

Of course, the Umaik were in the wrong, invading the territory and then committing a genocide. And of course, the Loroi who died fighting would be remembered positively, I imagine.

However, I don't think that military Loroi would be hesitant to find fault with the Loroi command in charge of the situation. Namely, it seems as if the Loroi took actions that... well, how to put this without sounding like I'm blaming the Loroi for the situation.

When the Loroi conquered Mannadi territory and met stiff resistance, they committed genocide. Could the Loroi command in charge of the rebellions not have foreseen the consequences of being too good at resisting? Were they blamed for the results after their territory was recaptured?



Also, considering it's age, were there any major deposits of fossil fuels on Deinar?

[Mk_C]

Hey, I've got several questions and thought I'd just dump them here for discussion.

Nice.

I was looking over the comic and, on pg 6, there's a ship displayed on the screen console. Is there any word on whether that's meant to depict the ship that fired on them?

Not many other options. Walker reports an unidentified contact 850 km away... and the screen displays this, with thee description reading "unidentified contact course blablabla range 850 km". Gotta be it, nah?

If so, I think it rules out the historians as suspects, as they have reaction-less drives.

We have no idea what Historian reactionless drives look like. No reason why they can't have big glowy nozzles. Soopa-adwansid incomprehensibl teknology!

About Loroi language. I remember reading that Loroi telepathy is very literal, and their language is similarly so. Are these phrases an artifact of translation, or does Loroi thought allow for more abstract phraseology?

It most certainly does allow for it. Talon humorously refers to Tempo as "mother" on page 143. Moonglow unloads caustic sarcasm at Ashrain on page 128. Charred Steppes are called Charred Steppes, despite being neither literally charred nor actual steppes. And there are the examples you provided. Blueberries are generally more direct and literal than humans, but they are not Asperger's cases - idiomatic phraseology is perfectly natural to them, it's just not interwoven into their interaction as densely as it is for humans.

Also, I was wondering why Alexander would decline to tell them about the other scout ships?

Because that implies possible existence of his counterparts among Hierarchy. Alex is treading on very thin ice already, and outright stating that yeah some other scout crew might be busy wooing the Enemy towards an alliance with humanity right now would not do well for his survival. That's not very forthcoming of him, but Loroi can surmise the possibility from the presented general setup of the contact mission - take off with a tanker/relay, spread out past a certain point, try to find and contact SOMEBODY. Supposedly, by the time they do, they will be a bit less inclined to bind him to a bunk and painfully violate his brain due to building up some mutual trust, while also being more understanding of some minor reluctance after starting off the entire contact on such a note.

He seems very ready to tell them the location of earth; given that, the existence of other scout ships seems like a comparatively minor matter in terms of security while being very important with regards to his diplomatic station.

Alex disclosing the location of Earth is a constantly overestimated issue. It's not really hidden at this point. If Union or Hierarchy desire to, they can single out the Sol region from the scout ships approach vector, and when they come there - sure as hell they'll find human buoys everywhere, and soon - Earth itself. Even without the scouts' vectors to guide them - Orgus refugees already literally stumbled into it, and it's now a matter of a year or two before someone else does - which is the main reason behind the urgent contact mission in the first place.

Also, now that he has a starmap of enemy territory, would he know where the other scout-ships are in relation to the major combatants?

Alex didn't even know the prospective course across the bubble for Bellarmine. It's entirely up in the air if even Hamilton knew where the other scouts would be - if there even WERE pre-planned vectors for them, and they were improvising after spreading out from Prabhu by orienting themselves on the spot from local evidence. As far as they knew aliens could be in any direction save the one they came from, and it would take a massive fleet to give any semblance of a proper coverage - so it didn't really matter if their vectors were spread out evenly or more clustered, the main hope was always the target (alien borders) being way too big to miss. In other words - it's entirely likely that the only thing Alex knows about the other scout ships on the mission is that they exist.

And, about Loroi civilians, what is the societal line about their status? I mean, how does modern loroi civilization justify keeping them as an underclass.

The same way every society ever justified having an underclass. Some slight ethical contradictions spread around the issue, some suddenly flexible morality where there's little reason to question it at the first glance, some heavy lean on tradition here, some subtle internalized bigotry there, some glass ceilings all over it, some social Darwinism sprinkled on top. It's not meant to be flawless, or pretty and admirable for those outside of their cultural paradigm - just seems to function well enough to them, and they don't care much about the opinions of outsiders.

As a high tech society, I imagine they should have enough genetic and statistical knowledge to realize that the idea of inherent civilian inferiority seems unlikely.

Firstly - the literally do engage in species-wide eugenics. Not a hard thing to do when every pairing ever is arranged by the government. They most certainly do breed their own populace for more desirable warrior traits. Like psychokinesis. Thus, entering the warrior class probably does bear connotations of having supposedly "better pedigree" for the fortunate warrior, compared to her failed peers.

Secondly - it's not presented as "inherent", at least beyond civilians supposedly being the "weaker pick" of their inherited blood (remember - most of them are themselves daughters of warriors, who reproduce way more than civilians do). The way it is shaped out is that the warrior trials are a meritocratic test, where all those who display strength of their flesh and spirit may pass, while those who fail do not deserve to wield power or generally even reproduce. Civilians are painted to be an underclass by the fault of their own personal failings and them only. At least that's how Loroi culture presents it - the real situation would certainly be infinitely more complex, ugly and nuanced at the same time, but it is a simple and accessible picture that most Loroi would have no reason to question even if they were a society with a tendency for questioning things like that. And they are not. Reflection doesn't seem to be a strong Loroi suit. The great masses of the people, big lie, all the usual shebang. Not the topic that is likely to be deeply excavated in the canon anyhow. We're in for some space battles and space bitches, not contemplations of all the different forms that social strife can take in extraterrestrial civilizations. Rigid social stratification is the preferred kool-aid of these alien babes and Alex is not very likely to convince them to unravel the entire fabric of their society in favor of Truth, Justice, and the American Way with the power of his irresistible looks.

In fact, the fact that they will recruit telekinetic civilians seems to be a glaring realization of this fact.

Farseers are all civilians. It seems like the peculiarities of their function crash somewhat with the cultural presentation of the Loroi idea of a warriors.

And, even before Loroi got advanced technology, was there any notion that, pricked with a needle, do they not all bleed blue?
Were there any movements to dissolve the societal line between civilian and warriors. (Mind, this wouldn't mean getting rid of the caste system, just allowing civilians to more readily enter into warrior society.)

There probably were. They are not a monoculture, after all - there are still various and divers nations and cultures under the grand umbrella of "Loroi Union". But with all the chaotic conditions of Loroi biology, their situation on the Splinter Colonies, peculiarities of their historic process, etc, seems like it sorta didn't take off so far. Technological development being largely predetermined by the Soya artefacts, extremely long lifespans and the accompanying inertia of culture, biology dictating the dire need for a strict control over means of reproduction, male Farseers keeping their hand on the pulse of popular opinions and preventing the elite from becoming entirely disconnected from the plights of their less fortunate daughters, Mizol and Teidar being inherently super-effective at disassembling and putting down any subversive elements while also having inherent aristocratic elements due to being actually tied to blood, the idea of virtue being inherently tied with personal capacity for violence - those just don't leave much opportunity for a human-like history of frequent social upheaval and reform, inviting a much more stable and rigid alternative. Such cases, eh.

About the early stages of the Loroi Umaik war. I remember reading that there was a - civilian backed - coup because the new emperor was about to nationalize industries. This, if I have my timelines right, happened after the Loroi lost a whole lot of territory, (territory that would later be subject to a genocide) and after the head of their state had been killed in battle along with their flagship. Like, what? I mean, even 1940's, post-gilded age, monopoly mustache america manged to get it's act together for World War Two. And nobody even took American territory. I find this surprising because I imagined the Loroi would be a bit more patriotic than that. I also find it surprising that the civilian underlclass could, or would, support such an insubstantial coup against what was very clearly a necessary move. This seems in stark contrast to the civilian led American response in WWII.

The coup plot was not started by the civilians. It originated in the Diadem, among the Loroi high military command, specifically the so-called Axis faction, that had certain disagreements with Greywind's personality (her Mizol origins and staff position, which was a novelty for an Azerein) and policy (which went against a lot of things that Axis members saw as the core of Loroi culture), plus there were some suspicions of foul play being involved in the previous Azerein's heroic demise through certain powers coughMizolcough utilizing their control over military intel to engineer a suicide-by-shell mission for Emperor's personal squadron, which may or may not be ultimately true. In any case, Loroi civilians cannot initiate such machinations on their own - they kinda lack the leverage to do so due to being largely a disempowered underclass. They can only support such sentiment among the military elite when they can, and when it protects their own interests - like in the case of the Axis coup, with a prospect of a massive nationalization of industries. Which, for all we know, can ultimately serve to be beneficial for common Loroi civilians, at the cost of the position of wealthier civilian magnates - those being the real backers of the conspiracy, not "civilians" as a class. The reform certainly proves to be beneficial for the war effort - sasuga total war economy. In any case - the Loroi Union is not the United States of America. And for a stark contrast for your own historic example - there was a certain human Empire (or two (or three(or more depending on what you count))) that DID fall to an internal uprising right in the course of another certain World War. And WWII itself saw no shortage of military coups and uprisings happening as front lines danced across Europe and Asia. The extreme strain of warfare kinda tends to catalyse this sort of shit.

I find this surprising because I imagined the Loroi would be a bit more patriotic than that. I also find it surprising that the civilian underlclass could, or would, support such an insubstantial coup against what was very clearly a necessary move. This seems in stark contrast to the civilian led American response in WWII.

Every military coup in human history was justified by a patriotic sentiment - the coup agents presenting (and frequently seeing) themselves as saving their society from a dangerous/incompetent/foolish/subverted leadership, toppling the false idols in the name of the greater good. Axis was no different in this regard - as far as that part of the Diadem and their supporters were concerned, Greywind was a cowardly usurper malevolently dismantling everything that Loroi society stood for and a Hierarchy agent as well, they saw themselves as the true daughters of the Union in their efforts to oppose her.

Also, notably, I wanted to ask about the genocides of Loroi territory. More specifically, I wanted to ask about how the Loroi high-command who were in charge of the captured territory are remembered. Of course, the Umaik were in the wrong, invading the territory and then committing a genocide. And of course, the Loroi who died fighting would be remembered positively, I imagine. However, I don't think that military Loroi would be hesitant to find fault with the Loroi command in charge of the situation. Namely, it seems as if the Loroi took actions that... well, how to put this without sounding like I'm blaming the Loroi for the situation.

Issues like that would take a truckload of books to properly unravel, IF we had all the historical material to comb through. Which we don't, it's a footnote in the background material that has only a distant relationship to the plot. And even if we did - the interpretation depends on the context. Loroi context is never exactly the same as human one. The difference is the whole thing that makes it interesting. That and blu elf tiddy, of course.

When the Loroi conquered Mannadi territory and met stiff resistance, they committed genocide. Could the Loroi command in charge of the rebellions not have foreseen the consequences of being too good at resisting? Were they blamed for the results after their territory was recaptured?

Now that's easy - N O. That's blatantly not how the entirety of the common Loroi culture works. To die fighting is presented to be the ultimate destination and success of a proper warrior life among Loroi, while a life on it's own is not really valued highly. Every good blueberry knows that a bloody death is infinitely preferable to a life of cowardice. The opinion of those who actually get to die - or survive by a hair's breadth (coughFirebladecough) - might clash strongly with the sentiment as well as with itself, producing delicious and entirely plot-relevant character drama that we are exploring right now in the current pages, but those voices would be seen as outsider outlooks on the issue among the larger Loroi society.

Also, considering it's age, were there any major deposits of fossil fuels on Deinar?

Eh, it's possible. Fossil fuels deposits require a peculiar biosphere to form, not just sheer age. If Soya engineered biospheres can indeed produce fossil fuel deposits - there's no reason why Deinar couldn't've had at least some formed, even through it's relatively short history.

Now those are some walls of text we're throwing at each other, if I've ever seen any.

[Arioch]

I was looking over the comic and, on pg 6, there's a ship displayed on the screen console. Is there any word on whether that's meant to depict the ship that fired on them?

https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider006.html

If so, I think it rules out the historians as suspects, as they have reaction-less drives.

Just because a drive is reactionless doesn't necessarily mean that it can't have any bright outlets.

On page 73, still storm says "hold the line" and, notably, "keep the handle on the blade."

Later on, Talon says something along the lines of, "this shuttle does not fly from the back seat."

About Loroi language. I remember reading that Loroi telepathy is very literal, and their language is similarly so. Are these phrases an artifact of translation, or does Loroi thought allow for more abstract phraseology?

Or, alternatively, was she being very literal? Is 'blade' perhaps just their word for control stick, and so on.

Actually, Stillstorm said "Hold this position." And Talon was in a sense being literal -- you actually can't fly the shuttle from the rear seat. But I'm splitting hairs.

As has been discussed before the Loroi have demonstrated some limited use of metaphor in their speech -- Talon referred to Tempo as "mother", and called the Clearbrook captain some names which are clearly not literally accurate. I think even a truthfully telepathic culture will need some limited form of metaphor for use particularly in ritual, humor, and colorful cursing and name-calling. The principal difference would be that in a telepathic metaphor, there would be explicit (though mostly unconscious) tags marking it as such. Any full, literal translation of telepathy into speech is going to be unreadably verbose.

And in particular, combat is central to Loroi warrior culture, and so one would expect a degree of ritual (as when Seinen Forest calls out "at quick for action!"), much of which might harken back to their long ancient history of fighting. I had intended for this scene to consist exclusively of such ritualized code phrases, but in the process of writing it I felt that it would just make the scene more difficult to understand.

Also, I was wondering why Alexander would decline to tell them about the other scout ships? He seems very ready to tell them the location of earth; given that, the existence of other scout ships seems like a comparatively minor matter in terms of security while being very important with regards to his diplomatic station. Also, now that he has a starmap of enemy territory, would he know where the other scout-ships are in relation to the major combatants?

It's not a question of security, but rather of playing to the audience in front of him. I don't think Alex was in any doubt that the Loroi did not believe him or trust him, and so he judged that it would a poor time to say, "Oh by the way, at this moment there's probably another human diplomatic team offering the same deal to your mortal enemy."

And, about Loroi civilians, what is the societal line about their status? I mean, how does modern loroi civilization justify keeping them as an underclass.

As a high tech society, I imagine they should have enough genetic and statistical knowledge to realize that the idea of inherent civilian inferiority seems unlikely.

In fact, the fact that they will recruit telekinetic civilians seems to be a glaring realization of this fact. On earth, as far as I know, while there were exceptions where members of the underclass could rise up, there weren't any consistent exceptions.

Well, the first thing to understand about Loroi civilians is that the vast majority of them were born to warrior mothers. Normally, only the most influential civilian females are allowed to reproduce, so most current civilians were trainee warriors who didn't make it through the trials -- which usually means that they either declined to take part, quit at some point during training, or were such a miserable liability that their diral mates stopped covering for them, and they were flunked. So there's nothing racial or genetic about civilianhood; the vast majority of them are from warrior lineage, but have personally proved that they are not warrior material or had no desire to become warriors in the first place.

It's very unlikely that an individual with powerful psychokinesis would fail the trials, so the rare cases in which a civilian with PK was recruited for military service would be that the child of a high-status civilian was found to have PK, or a civilian who failed the trials had some form of latent PK that became active later in life. But these would be rare cases; this is not the normal practice.

Second, though I think it's accurate to describe Loroi civilians as an "underclass," I think sometimes too much is read into that. Loroi civilians are free persons who are denied certain privileges, chiefly military service (and therefore government service), and reproduction. Neither is a "right" in Loroi culture; reproduction, in particular, cannot be considered a "right" for a species that will inevitably overpopulate if breeding is not strictly controlled. Loroi civilians have many freedoms that Loroi warriors do not: they may own property, start a business, and become very wealthy in their own right; they may come and go as they please and are not required to answer to any master save those they choose to work for. And civilian females generally have much longer, more comfortable lives than the majority of warrior females.

And, even before Loroi got advanced technology, was there any notion that, pricked with a needle, do they not all bleed blue?
Were there any movements to dissolve the societal line between civilian and warriors. (Mind, this wouldn't mean getting rid of the caste system, just allowing civilians to more readily enter into warrior society.)

There were a variety of social systems in the various ancient Loroi cultures; in some, the civilians were a protected class (similar to males); in others, they were outright serfs or slaves. In some harsh nomadic cultures, there were no civilians; those who couldn't pass the trials were left to die or even killed outright. There were uprisings from time to time, but as with early human history, the peasants don't stand much chance against the military class -- especially when said class includes psychokinetic super-soldiers. There were a few times in history that civilian-led nations arose (on Perrein some of the highland city-states had (male) civilian-led theocracies), but over time they were eventually superceded by military states ("We have only those rights we can defend." - Jack McCoy). With the industrial era and the increase in the productivity and importance of civilian workers, their social status improved accordingly, and most of the harsher restrictions were removed. But the class system is not as simple as oppression of the civilians by the warriors; rather, it is a way of life reinforced by both sides of the class divide. The wealthy civilian magnates who are allowed to have children generally don't want their children to become warriors any more than the warrior elites want them to.

It's kind of like how most human cultures are patriarchal, despite the fact that children are, traditionally, raised and educated almost exclusively by females.

About the early stages of the Loroi Umaik war. I remember reading that there was a - civilian backed - coup because the new emperor was about to nationalize industries. This, if I have my timelines right, happened after the Loroi lost a whole lot of territory, (territory that would later be subject to a genocide) and after the head of their state had been killed in battle along with their flagship.

Like, what?

I mean, even 1940's, post-gilded age, monopoly mustache america manged to get it's act together for World War Two. And nobody even took American territory.

I find this surprising because I imagined the Loroi would be a bit more patriotic than that. I also find it surprising that the civilian underlclass could, or would, support such an insubstantial coup against what was very clearly a necessary move. This seems in stark contrast to the civilian led American response in WWII.

Of course, I don't mean to say this is bad or completely unbelievable. I think it's an interesting turn. I just wanted to use the opportunity to ask more about Loroi society.

The "civilian underclass" did not support the coup; a few wealthy civilian magnates did, because they knew that if Greywind successfully took power, that her administration would very likely bring criminal charges against them for war profiteering.

Even in the patriotic fervor of WWI and WWII America (and Britain), there were many people convicted of black market trading, price-gouging and war profiteering. The government and society as a whole took a very dim view of those who put their own personal profit ahead of the survival of the nation.

Also, notably, I wanted to ask about the genocides of Loroi territory. More specifically, I wanted to ask about how the Loroi high-command who were in charge of the captured territory are remembered.

Of course, the Umaik were in the wrong, invading the territory and then committing a genocide. And of course, the Loroi who died fighting would be remembered positively, I imagine.

However, I don't think that military Loroi would be hesitant to find fault with the Loroi command in charge of the situation. Namely, it seems as if the Loroi took actions that... well, how to put this without sounding like I'm blaming the Loroi for the situation.

When the Loroi conquered Mannadi territory and met stiff resistance, they committed genocide. Could the Loroi command in charge of the rebellions not have foreseen the consequences of being too good at resisting? Were they blamed for the results after their territory was recaptured?

This would be like blaming the Polish military for the Holocaust, because they couldn't fight off the Wehrmacht AND the Red Army at the same time.

It wasn't Loroi high command's plan to allow Seren and the Steppes colonies to be captured, and they were not captured because of incompetence by the commanders in charge. Losing a battle does not enhance your status in the Loroi military, but the Loroi warrior ethos is a pragmatic one; they know from experience that "not one step in retreat" is a phrase uttered by armies destined for failure. Significant (and mostly successful) efforts were made to evacuate the colonies that couldn't be defended, but inevitably some people were left behind.

Once under Umiak control, the Loroi on the captured planets were completely cut off from contact with the Loroi authorities, and so what happened next was entirely between those Loroi and the Umiak occupation forces. Loroi high command had no part in nor any knowledge of what Loroi partisans were doing on Seren and other such occupied worlds, until they were retaken. (Which, as you may guess from the current dream sequence, is something that we're going to learn more about.)

It was not long after the fall of Seren that Emperor Eighth Dawn was replaced by Greywind, and so many of her staff that were in charge during the defeat did not survive in their positions after the coup attempt (a few who directly participated in it did not survive at all).

Also, considering it's age, were there any major deposits of fossil fuels on Deinar?

No, which is part of the reason why Deinar technology stalled in the late medieval and early industrial eras for several thousand years.

[White]

Hey, I've got several questions and thought I'd just dump them here for discussion.

Nice.

Nice.

Not many other options. Walker reports an unidentified contact 850 km away... and the screen displays this, with thee description reading "unidentified contact course blablabla range 850 km". Gotta be it, nah?

We have no idea what Historian reactionless drives look like. No reason why they can't have big glowy nozzles. Soopa-adwansid incomprehensibl teknology!

Fair.

About Loroi language. I remember reading that Loroi telepathy is very literal, and their language is similarly so. Are these phrases an artifact of translation, or does Loroi thought allow for more abstract phraseology?

It most certainly does allow for it. Talon humorously refers to Tempo as "mother" on page 143. Moonglow unloads caustic sarcasm at Ashrain on page 128. Charred Steppes are called Charred Steppes, despite being neither literally charred nor actual steppes. And there are the examples you provided. Blueberries are generally more direct and literal than humans, but they are not Asperger's cases - idiomatic phraseology is perfectly natural to them, it's just not interwoven into their interaction as densely as it is for humans.

I agree that fits with the observed language. Although, I do remember reading a post here made by Arioch indicating that they would be astounded by poetic language. So perhaps it's a difference of degree than kind.

Also, I was wondering why Alexander would decline to tell them about the other scout ships?

Because that implies possible existence of his counterparts among Hierarchy. Alex is treading on very thin ice already, and outright stating that yeah some other scout crew might be busy wooing the Enemy towards an alliance with humanity right now would not do well for his survival. That's not very forthcoming of him, but Loroi can surmise the possibility from the presented general setup of the contact mission - take off with a tanker/relay, spread out past a certain point, try to find and contact SOMEBODY. Supposedly, by the time they do, they will be a bit less inclined to bind him to a bunk and painfully violate his brain due to building up some mutual trust, while also being more understanding of some minor reluctance after starting off the entire contact on such a note.

Really, I'd imagine knowing about the other scout ships would just incentivise them to work more quickly with him. I doubt the Loroi would think to blame him for the fact that a Human ship might accidentally stumble onto the Umaik.

Alex disclosing the location of Earth is a constantly overestimated issue. It's not really hidden at this point. If Union or Hierarchy desire to, they can single out the Sol region from the scout ships approach vector, and when they come there - sure as hell they'll find human buoys everywhere, and soon - Earth itself. Even without the scouts' vectors to guide them - Orgus refugees already literally stumbled into it, and it's now a matter of a year or two before someone else does - which is the main reason behind the urgent contact mission in the first place.

True, but it might delay them for a month or so. Which just might be what you need if you and your ally are rushing to send a fleet out to defend earth. Keep in mind, I mostly just listed that case to highlight the extreme caution Alexander seemed to be displaying by witholding the information about the scout ships.

All that ommision seemed to do, in my eyes, was to misinform his negotiation partners. So, either he never tells them, and runs the risk of wandering an expeditionary force into an Umaik expedition being led by another human scout ship. Or, he tells them later, and earns and exhasperated look from tempo as she tells him off for not telling them earlier.

Also, now that he has a starmap of enemy territory, would he know where the other scout-ships are in relation to the major combatants?

Alex didn't even know the prospective course across the bubble for Bellarmine. It's entirely up in the air if even Hamilton knew where the other scouts would be - if there even WERE pre-planned vectors for them, and they were improvising after spreading out from Prabhu by orienting themselves on the spot from local evidence. As far as they knew aliens could be in any direction save the one they came from, and it would take a massive fleet to give any semblance of a proper coverage - so it didn't really matter if their vectors were spread out evenly or more clustered, the main hope was always the target (alien borders) being way too big to miss. In other words - it's entirely likely that the only thing Alex knows about the other scout ships on the mission is that they exist.

Weather Alexander himself knew, I think the plot for the scout ships was set in advance of the mission. In page 60, Alexander mentions that the Bellaramine was sent to search a range of systems, and, notably, that the range of systems was preselected. He says he doesn't know why the systems were chosen, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know which systems they're meant to search.

And, about Loroi civilians, what is the societal line about their status? I mean, how does modern loroi civilization justify keeping them as an underclass.

The same way every society ever justified having an underclass. Some slight ethical contradictions spread around the issue, some suddenly flexible morality where there's little reason to question it at the first glance, some heavy lean on tradition here, some subtle internalized bigotry there, some glass ceilings all over it, some social Darwinism sprinkled on top. It's not meant to be flawless, or pretty and admirable for those outside of their cultural paradigm - just seems to function well enough to them, and they don't care much about the opinions of outsiders.

As a high tech society, I imagine they should have enough genetic and statistical knowledge to realize that the idea of inherent civilian inferiority seems unlikely.

ci
Firstly - the literally do engage in species-wide eugenics. Not a hard thing to do when every pairing ever is arranged by the government. They most certainly do breed their own populace for more desirable warrior traits. Like psychokinesis. Thus, entering the warrior class probably does bear connotations of having supposedly "better pedigree" for the fortunate warrior, compared to her failed peers.

But, Loroi civilization has advanced knowledge of genetics and, more probably, a good system for population monitoring and statistical analysis.

Ancient societies may have had some substance of divine right. And, premodern societies may have had social darwinism. But, at the tech level the Loroi are operating at, it seems like everyone is one google-search away from discovering that the civilian normal-distribution doesn't stray that far away from the warrior one.

This fact can become all the more grating when they realize that literally half of their geniuses are in no position to apply their talents to the war effort.

Secondly - it's not presented as "inherent", at least beyond civilians supposedly being the "weaker pick" of their inherited blood (remember - most of them are themselves daughters of warriors, who reproduce way more than civilians do). The way it is shaped out is that the warrior trials are a meritocratic test, where all those who display strength of their flesh and spirit may pass, while those who fail do not deserve to wield power or generally even reproduce.

As I recall, only the children of warriors, (and those with telekinetic abilities) are even allowed to take the test. And, most Loroi who take the test pass, even those who fail the test can try again after some punishment. From what I remember of what Arioch said, the test isn't really one of competense as it is one of a Loroi's willingness to stay around long enough to survive the trials.

Also, where are you getting the information that most civilians are failed warriors. A warrior failing the trials seems like a fairly rare event.

Civilians are painted to be an underclass by the fault of their own personal failings and them only. At least that's how Loroi culture presents it - the real situation would certainly be infinitely more complex, ugly and nuanced at the same time, but it is a simple and accessible picture that most Loroi would have no reason to question even if they were a society with a tendency for questioning things like that.

Again, I feel like the genetic and statistical data outlined above would lead to someone questioning it, expecially those who would have something to gain from the status quo being overturned, (that being, fifty percent of the population.) So, the way I see it, there's ample evidence and ample desire to question the system, man.

Also, I'm not so sure the Loroi in the comics are really great enough at gymnastics to blame a civilian borne child for failing a test it never took, especially considering the fact that one percent of civilian children are guaranteed a shot at becoming a warrior.

And they are not. Reflection doesn't seem to be a strong Loroi suit. The great masses of the people, big lie, all the usual shebang. Not the topic that is likely to be deeply excavated in the canon anyhow.

I'd say that's rather underestemating the Loroi. They''ve undoubtedly been exposed to alien ideas and literal aliens. I doubt it would take a genius civilian much prompting to say... "hey, why am I bowing to her!? And why is my daughter going to the second best school in the solar system!?"

We're in for some space battles and space bitches, not contemplations of all the different forms that social strife can take in extraterrestrial civilizations.

But contemplation is all the rage right now!

Rigid social stratification is the preferred kool-aid of these alien babes and Alex is not very likely to convince them to unravel the entire fabric of their society in favor of Truth, Justice, and the American Way with the power of his irresistible looks.

Hey, I didn't say he would or that he even should focus his effort on that. I'm just bringing it up as a point of discussion.

In fact, the fact that they will recruit telekinetic civilians seems to be a glaring realization of this fact.

Farseers are all civilians. It seems like the peculiarities of their function crash somewhat with the cultural presentation of the Loroi idea of a warriors.

I was refrencing the Teidar and Mizol, who recruit from civilians if I recall. And, they're quite high prestige schools, too, as I recall.

Which makes me wonder, would a Teidar with civilian parents be embarrassed about the fact, especially considering she probably outranks (rather out-cools) ninety percent of the organing, non-gmo, all natural warriors she works with.

And, even before Loroi got advanced technology, was there any notion that, pricked with a needle, do they not all bleed blue?
Were there any movements to dissolve the societal line between civilian and warriors. (Mind, this wouldn't mean getting rid of the caste system, just allowing civilians to more readily enter into warrior society.)

There probably were. They are not a monoculture, after all - there are still various and divers nations and cultures under the grand umbrella of "Loroi Union". But with all the chaotic conditions of Loroi biology, their situation on the Splinter Colonies, peculiarities of their historic process, etc, seems like it sorta didn't take off so far. Technological development being largely predetermined by the Soya artefacts, extremely long lifespans and the accompanying inertia of culture, biology dictating the dire need for a strict control over means of reproduction, male Farseers keeping their hand on the pulse of popular opinions and preventing the elite from becoming entirely disconnected from the plights of their less fortunate daughters, Mizol and Teidar being inherently super-effective at disassembling and putting down any subversive elements while also having inherent aristocratic elements due to being actually tied to blood, the idea of virtue being inherently tied with personal capacity for violence - those just don't leave much opportunity for a human-like history of frequent social upheaval and reform, inviting a much more stable and rigid alternative. Such cases, eh.

Not sure, I'd desribe Loroi virtures as bieng the ability to enact violence. Of course, they probably respect power, but I think honesty and courage are more in line with their idealizations of morality.

I think this is one of those things that can be misconstrued when looking into another culture.

For example, an alien looking at a Superman comic might get the idea that humans idealize the morality of blowing up planets with your fists. (Certaintly, some comic writers seem to have fallen into that line of thought.) But, a more nuanced view would say that Superman is 'about' truth, justice and the american way. An even more nuanced view would probably include a short lecture about bigtory and the plight of opressed peoples in early twentieth century earth.

Of course, this issue can become even more muddied when it applies to real people. Sure, teidar are respected for their strength, especially during the ancient periods. But, even if the loroi treat teidar as the moral ideal, I doubt that the power aspect is what they respect, or rather, what they tell themselves is worthy of respect.

If you laid out a list of loroi leaders, I'm pretty sure their "winning features" will probably have little to do with their ability to enact violence. This pattern is noticable even in human culture. Look at a list of famous leaders, and most of them will probably have an anecdote about their wisdom, or clever ideas, or courage. Even those regarded almost solely for their tactical ability, will have some epithet saying their treated their soldiers well, and so forth.

About the early stages of the Loroi Umaik war. I remember reading that there was a - civilian backed - coup because the new emperor was about to nationalize industries. This, if I have my timelines right, happened after the Loroi lost a whole lot of territory, (territory that would later be subject to a genocide) and after the head of their state had been killed in battle along with their flagship. Like, what? I mean, even 1940's, post-gilded age, monopoly mustache america manged to get it's act together for World War Two. And nobody even took American territory. I find this surprising because I imagined the Loroi would be a bit more patriotic than that. I also find it surprising that the civilian underlclass could, or would, support such an insubstantial coup against what was very clearly a necessary move. This seems in stark contrast to the civilian led American response in WWII.

The coup plot was not started by the civilians. It originated in the Diadem, among the Loroi high military command, specifically the so-called Axis faction, that had certain disagreements with Greywind's personality (her Mizol origins and staff position, which was a novelty for an Azerein) and policy (which went against a lot of things that Axis members saw as the core of Loroi culture), plus there were some suspicions of foul play being involved in the previous Azerein's heroic demise through certain powers coughMizolcough utilizing their control over military intel to engineer a suicide-by-shell mission for Emperor's personal squadron, which may or may not be ultimately true. In any case, Loroi civilians cannot initiate such machinations on their own - they kinda lack the leverage to do so due to being largely a disempowered underclass. They can only support such sentiment among the military elite when they can, and when it protects their own interests - like in the case of the Axis coup, with a prospect of a massive nationalization of industries. Which, for all we know, can ultimately serve to be beneficial for common Loroi civilians, at the cost of the position of wealthier civilian magnates - those being the real backers of the conspiracy, not "civilians" as a class. The reform certainly proves to be beneficial for the war effort - sasuga total war economy. In any case - the Loroi Union is not the United States of America. And for a stark contrast for your own historic example - there was a certain human Empire (or two (or three(or more depending on what you count))) that DID fall to an internal uprising right in the course of another certain World War. And WWII itself saw no shortage of military coups and uprisings happening as front lines danced across Europe and Asia. The extreme strain of warfare kinda tends to catalyse this sort of shit.

It says there were suspicions of treatchery, but I get the feeling that the accusations were ones of convenience. And, yes, my use of the word 'civilians' was not meant to imply that all civilians were involved. I used the word to highlight that those indivituals who backed the coup were civilians.

Every military coup in human history was justified by a patriotic sentiment - the coup agents presenting (and frequently seeing) themselves as saving their society from a dangerous/incompetent/foolish/subverted leadership, toppling the false idols in the name of the greater good. Axis was no different in this regard - as far as that part of the Diadem and their supporters were concerned, Greywind was a cowardly usurper malevolently dismantling everything that Loroi society stood for and a Hierarchy agent as well, they saw themselves as the true daughters of the Union in their efforts to oppose her.

I disagree. I think that coups generally, and in this case, are often a grab for power. (Of course, the argument could be made that any change of government before modern states was a grab for power, but I digress.) And, in this case, it seems blatantly to be the case. I remember reading a comment by Arioch that the accusations were, to put it politely, unfounded according to the telepathic rumor mill. And those nations that were undergoing coups, how many of them were in the process of being completely destroyed by a hostile power? How many of them had a chance of surviving even if they were stable?

And, notably, how many of the people currently doing the couping actually wanted the state to exist. I doubt a seperatist movement allying with the enemy and using the war to carve out a ethnic state can be considered patriotic, or atleast, patriotic to the state it happens to be couping.

And even if we did - the interpretation depends on the context. Loroi context is never exactly the same as human one. The difference is the whole thing that makes it interesting. That and blu elf tiddy, of course.

What do you mean? About the context, that is.

When the Loroi conquered Mannadi territory and met stiff resistance, they committed genocide. Could the Loroi command in charge of the rebellions not have foreseen the consequences of being too good at resisting? Were they blamed for the results after their territory was recaptured?

Now that's easy - N O. That's blatantly not how the entirety of the common Loroi culture works. To die fighting is presented to be the ultimate destination and success of a proper warrior life among Loroi, while a life on it's own is not really valued highly. Every good blueberry knows that a bloody death is infinitely preferable to a life of cowardice. The opinion of those who actually get to die - or survive by a hair's breadth (coughFirebladecough) - might clash strongly with the sentiment as well as with itself, producing delicious and entirely plot-relevant character drama that we are exploring right now in the current pages, but those voices would be seen as outsider outlooks on the issue among the larger Loroi society.

I doubt they're that fanatical. I don't disagree that, as a warrior culture, they'll have an appetite for losses that's perhaps greater than might otherwise be the case, but unnecessary losses are unnecessary losses.

Of course, the indivitual fighters that were following orders would be remembered well. But it's their commanders I'm wondering about. I mean, what did they accomplish with their efforts?

That's not a rhetorical question, as they appaently delayed the Umaik's ability to use the captured worlds to bolster their industry. But, their losses aren't marginal either.

Whatever the case, I doubt that the Loroi run on "death before logic" mentality. A loss is a loss, and a commander losing that many people would, I imagine, have to have a good reason in order not to get charged with incompetence or treatchery.

If you disagree, I'd like to ask you to present some examples of any earth cultures that have had a similar mentality to that which you state.

Also, considering it's age, were there any major deposits of fossil fuels on Deinar?

Eh, it's possible. Fossil fuels deposits require a peculiar biosphere to form, not just sheer age. If Soya engineered biospheres can indeed produce fossil fuel deposits - there's no reason why Deinar couldn't've had at least some formed, even through it's relatively short history.

Now those are some walls of text we're throwing at each other, if I've ever seen any.
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[White]

t's not a question of security, but rather of playing to the audience in front of him. I don't think Alex was in any doubt that the Loroi did not believe him or trust him, and so he judged that it would a poor time to say, "Oh by the way, at this moment there's probably another human diplomatic team offering the same deal to your mortal enemy."

Perhaps, but wouldn't it be worse to reveal such a thing at the last minute?

And, about Loroi civilians, what is the societal line about their status? I mean, how does modern loroi civilization justify keeping them as an underclass.

As a high tech society, I imagine they should have enough genetic and statistical knowledge to realize that the idea of inherent civilian inferiority seems unlikely.

In fact, the fact that they will recruit telekinetic civilians seems to be a glaring realization of this fact. On earth, as far as I know, while there were exceptions where members of the underclass could rise up, there weren't any consistent exceptions.

Well, the first thing to understand about Loroi civilians is that the vast majority of them were born to warrior mothers. Normally, only the most influential civilian females are allowed to reproduce, so most current civilians were trainee warriors who didn't make it through the trials -- which usually means that they either declined to take part, quit at some point during training, or were such a miserable liability that their diral mates stopped covering for them, and they were flunked. So there's nothing racial or genetic about civilianhood; the vast majority of them are from warrior lineage, but have personally proved that they are not warrior material or had no desire to become warriors in the first place.

It's very unlikely that an individual with powerful psychokinesis would fail the trials, so the rare cases in which a civilian with PK was recruited for military service would be that the child of a high-status civilian was found to have PK, or a civilian who failed the trials had some form of latent PK that became active later in life. But these would be rare cases; this is not the normal practice.

Second, though I think it's accurate to describe Loroi civilians as an "underclass," I think sometimes too much is read into that. Loroi civilians are free persons who are denied certain privileges, chiefly military service (and therefore government service), and reproduction. Neither is a "right" in Loroi culture; reproduction, in particular, cannot be considered a "right" for a species that will inevitably overpopulate if breeding is not strictly controlled. Loroi civilians have many freedoms that Loroi warriors do not: they may own property, start a business, and become very wealthy in their own right; they may come and go as they please and are not required to answer to any master save those they choose to work for. And civilian females generally have much longer, more comfortable lives than the majority of warrior females.

So strictly speaking, would it be accurate to say that, in effect, only 45 percent of Loroi society can act as a catalyst for reproduction, in contrast to humanity's 50%? Is this why the Loroi seem to have a comparatively low population when compared to humans when you consider their time in space as well as the number of habitable worlds near them?

But the class system is not as simple as oppression of the civilians by the warriors; rather, it is a way of life reinforced by both sides of the class divide. The wealthy civilian magnates who are allowed to have children generally don't want their children to become warriors any more than the warrior elites want them to.

It's kind of like how most human cultures are patriarchal, despite the fact that children are, traditionally, raised and educated almost exclusively by females.

I'm not sure I see the connection.

Also, who would a wealthy civilian have to pay off to be allowed to have children? What is the process for that?

About the early stages of the Loroi Umaik war. I remember reading that there was a - civilian backed - coup because the new emperor was about to nationalize industries. This, if I have my timelines right, happened after the Loroi lost a whole lot of territory, (territory that would later be subject to a genocide) and after the head of their state had been killed in battle along with their flagship.

Like, what?

I mean, even 1940's, post-gilded age, monopoly mustache america manged to get it's act together for World War Two. And nobody even took American territory.

I find this surprising because I imagined the Loroi would be a bit more patriotic than that. I also find it surprising that the civilian underlclass could, or would, support such an insubstantial coup against what was very clearly a necessary move. This seems in stark contrast to the civilian led American response in WWII.

Of course, I don't mean to say this is bad or completely unbelievable. I think it's an interesting turn. I just wanted to use the opportunity to ask more about Loroi society.

The "civilian underclass" did not support the coup; a few wealthy civilian magnates did, because they knew that if Greywind successfully took power, that she would very likely bring criminal charges against them for war profiteering.

Even in the patriotic fervor of WWI and WWII America (and Britain), there were many people convicted of black market trading, price-gouging and war profiteering. The government and society as a whole took a very dim view of those who put their own personal profit ahead of the survival of the nation.

When I used the word civilian, I didn't mean it to implicate all Loroi civilians. Rather, I did it to highlight that the particular indivituals who backed the coups were civilian. I did this as I was wondering how the civilians were even allowed to interact with the government on such a level.

Warriors aren't allowed to get bribes and have little use for money. So, what exactly did getting 'backed' by civilian magnates mean? More air time before the elections? Haha.

Also, while there were many people convited of Black Market trading in the US and Britan, I'd like to note that there weren't any major revolutions because of that. In fact, I'd say the majority of the population was probably in favor of the government responce to the situation. This happened in relatively free-market societies, so I was just wondering how a coup over overly restricted markets managed to get started in the Loroi government during such a critical hour.

And, I doubt those in danger of being convicted would have backed a coup. Or, rather, I doubt they would have in an existential war.

(Of course, I imagine the military leaders probably had other reasons as well, I imagine. But, still, it seems to me like they were mainly trying to grab power and settle petty conflicts on the basis of baseless accusations.)

Also, notably, I wanted to ask about the genocides of Loroi territory. More specifically, I wanted to ask about how the Loroi high-command who were in charge of the captured territory are remembered.

Of course, the Umaik were in the wrong, invading the territory and then committing a genocide. And of course, the Loroi who died fighting would be remembered positively, I imagine.

However, I don't think that military Loroi would be hesitant to find fault with the Loroi command in charge of the situation. Namely, it seems as if the Loroi took actions that... well, how to put this without sounding like I'm blaming the Loroi for the situation.

When the Loroi conquered Mannadi territory and met stiff resistance, they committed genocide. Could the Loroi command in charge of the rebellions not have foreseen the consequences of being too good at resisting? Were they blamed for the results after their territory was recaptured?

It wasn't Loroi high command's plan to allow Seren and the Steppes colonies to be captured, and they were not captured because of incompetence by the commanders in charge. Losing a battle does not enhance your status in the Loroi military, but the Loroi warrior ethos is a pragmatic one; they know from experience that "not one step in retreat" is a phrase uttered by armies destined for failure. Significant (and mostly successful) efforts were made to evacuate the colonies that couldn't be defended, but inevitably some people were left behind.

Once under Umiak control, the Loroi on the captured planets were completely cut off from contact with the Loroi authorities, and so what happened next was entirely between those Loroi and the Umiak occupation forces. Loroi high command had no part in nor any knowledge of what Loroi partisans were doing on Seren and other such occupied worlds, until they were retaken. (Which, as you may guess from the current dream sequence, is something that we're going to learn more about.)

It was not long after the fall of Seren that Emperor Eighth Dawn was replaced by Greywind, and so many of her staff that were in charge during the defeat did not survive in their positions after the coup attempt (a few who directly participated in it did not survive at all).

Oh, I was actually talking about the local leaders of the rebellion when I said "high command." Technically, they were independent from current government leadership, but, considering they were overseeing actions on a planet-wide scale, and that they were most-likely working within the structure of traditional Loroi military, I thought high-command would be a fitting term.

So, once the planet was lost, I imagine the forces there consolidated under the most senior leaders before they began operations. So, those senior leaders, how are their viewed?

Also, considering it's age, were there any major deposits of fossil fuels on Deinar?

No, which is part of the reason why Deinar technology stalled in the late medieval and early industrial eras for several thousand years.

Oh, what did they use to bridge the gap between medieval and nuclear, then?

Also, what are Loroi views on pacifism?

[Mk_C]

Really, I'd imagine knowing about the other scout ships would just incentivise them to work more quickly with him. I doubt the Loroi would think to blame him for the fact that a Human ship might accidentally stumble onto the Umaik.

That's if they decide to give negotiations with the Six Worlds a fair shake. Which they still kinda didn't. Them knowing with certainty about the possibility of humans allying with the Hierarchy regardless of Jardin's efforts only serves to undermine said efforts.

True, but it might delay them for a month or so. Which just might be what you need if you and your ally are rushing to send a fleet out to defend earth.

Hiding your entire base of operations from said prospective ally drastically reduces your chances of making him an ally.

Keep in mind, I mostly just listed that case to highlight the extreme caution Alexander seemed to be displaying by witholding the information about the scout ships.

Eh, Jardin's reasoning is not bound to be flawless in any case. He's in waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over his head, in a state of critical distress, and has to think quick on his feet. So a fast "eh, they will NOT enjoy hearing about this" was all the reasoning required, and it's mostly sound. Shows some cracks if we sit and contemplate it for months - like we do reading the stuff - but Alex was busy contemplating his own survival first. The entire shitload of information dumped on his 19yo brain second, some blue elven curves third, and the deeper implications of every bit of information he chooses to reveal only later. He has the ol' instructions, and besides that he's still largely winging it.

All that ommision seemed to do, in my eyes, was to misinform his negotiation partners. So, either he never tells them, and runs the risk of wandering an expeditionary force into an Umaik expedition being led by another human scout ship. Or, he tells them later, and earns and exhasperated look from tempo as she tells him off for not telling them earlier.

He's probably hoping for the latter option, preferably when the exasperated look is least likely to be accompanied by more unconsensual psychic cranial intrusions.

He says he doesn't know why the systems were chosen, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know which systems they're meant to search.

I think he doesn't.

But, Loroi civilization has advanced knowledge of genetics and, more probably, a good system for population monitoring and statistical analysis.

And they put to their best use - just not in a way that we might see as the best.

Ancient societies may have had some substance of divine right. And, premodern societies may have had social darwinism. But, at the tech level the Loroi are operating at, it seems like everyone is one google-search away from discovering that the civilian normal-distribution doesn't stray that far away from the warrior one.

They don't really seem to have google, or general freedom of information beyond the "rumour-mill". And more importantly - that "not far" seems enough for them. At least enough to justify the status quo. Or it was was until now - Greywind is shaking a lot of things up, and it's likely even she herself can't outline the full range of consequences of her reforms - to say nothing of the war itself - on the Loroi society.

This fact can become all the more grating when they realize that literally half of their geniuses are in no position to apply their talents to the war effort.

We kinda know that they kinda know that, and until very recently they kinda didn't care.

As I recall, only the children of warriors, (and those with telekinetic abilities) are even allowed to take the test

Also, where are you getting the information that most civilians are failed warriors. A warrior failing the trials seems like a fairly rare event.

Also, I'm not so sure the Loroi in the comics are really great enough at gymnastics to blame a civilian borne child for failing a test it never took

Ching-chong, your perception of canon is wrong:

For female civilian Loroi, who are mostly the offspring of warrior females, lineage can be a status factor in civilian society even though such individuals are no longer acknowledged as part of the warrior family. ‘Family’ for ex-warrior civilians consists of local friends and colleagues and direct offspring, if any..

Even without a direct explanation from Jim - warriors having significantly more reproductive rights compared to civilians is kind of a big deal. If warriors have significantly more reproductive rights than civilians, it means that the majority of all Loroi at any given moment were born to warrior mothers. That includes the majority of civilians.

Again, I feel like the genetic and statistical data outlined above would lead to someone questioning it, expecially those who would have something to gain from the status quo being overturned, (that being, fifty percent of the population.) So, the way I see it, there's ample evidence and ample desire to question the system, man.

That, again, would be true in a society with a habit of questioning the way the world turns, where injustice of the whole is frequently faced with rejection and resistance, rather than humility and acceptance. Those were not that typical even in human history. And humans are a wild bunch compared to blueberries.

I'd say that's rather underestemating the Loroi. They''ve undoubtedly been exposed to alien ideas and literal aliens.

And so far, they only learned from them when they absolutely had to. Otherwise, they were rather insulted by the very prospect. "It is THEM who must learn from us - we're better!"

I doubt it would take a genius civilian much prompting to say... "hey, why am I bowing to her!? And why is my daughter going to the second best school in the solar system!?"

It would not take a genius, but it would take a deviant. Their society seems to be extremely overqualified for dealing with those at every single level, from nurturing children to rotting out conspiracies in the highest government circles. Such capacity is great at giving said society homeostasis - possibly way too much of it in this particular case, at least from out point of view. I mean, consider for a moment that all the way from birth until proper citizenship (i.e. warriorhood), a blueberry is raised not by her mother and father, but directly by the government first, her clan possibly playing the role of the government, and thus second. That's a strong foundation for building an entirely collective-centric morality in nearly every individual. I imagine that if a Loroi finds herself mistreated by the system at large, she will first seek to blame (and try to change) herself rather than the system. Which is, from our point of view, a powerful and very much admirable approach in many cases - but less so in others coughFirebladecoughStillstormcough-cough, sure sounds like the Coof in here.

But contemplation is all the rage right now!
Hey, I didn't say he would or that he even should focus his effort on that. I'm just bringing it up as a point of discussion.

I just feel we're digging in the wrong direction in the wrong substrate in here.

Which makes me wonder, would a Teidar with civilian parents be embarrassed about the fact

I'm feeling it would be the cause of some pretty conflicted feelings on her part at the very least.

Not sure, I'd desribe Loroi virtures as bieng the ability to enact violence.

A warrior's purpose is certainly not "to look pretty". And with the bloody Loroi history, it's probably generally distant from our concept of a garden guardian. Their way, a warrior's worth lies in her courage, glory and lethality, not in what she's defending (that being civilians - who are the least worthy part of society). Damn, now I'm wondering how they would stomach the concept of a soldier - specifically in the difference from the idea of a warrior.

Of course, they probably respect power, but I think honesty and courage are more in line with their idealizations of morality.

Warrior's honesty. And warrior's courage.

If you laid out a list of loroi leaders, I'm pretty sure their "winning features" will probably have little to do with their ability to enact violence

Greywind is the first Azerein who did not rise to this rank from being a frontline commander.

It says there were suspicions of treatchery, but I get the feeling that the accusations were ones of convenience.

Plasma focus can't overload class VI screens. Tinza was an inside job!

I used the word to highlight that those indivituals who backed the coup were civilians.

Well, the personal interests of those individuals would be something quite different from the sentiment among the common folk, wouldn't it?

disagree. I think that coups generally, and in this case, are often a grab for power.

They all are. The question is - how people frame them, for others and for themselves.

And those nations that were undergoing coups, how many of them were in the process of being completely destroyed by a hostile power?

Eh, several of them, at the very least.

I doubt a seperatist movement allying with the enemy and using the war to carve out a ethnic state can be considered patriotic, or atleast, patriotic to the state it happens to be couping.

The Diadem Axis was not separatist.

What do you mean? About the context, that is.

That our judgement of such matters will always be quite different from Loroi judgement of the same matters. Many things that are outrageous for us are perfectly normal and even expected among them. And vice versa.

doubt they're that fanatical.

I have here a couple of exxxxxtremely young and daring pilots to challenge this sentiment.

But it's their commanders I'm wondering about. I mean, what did they accomplish with their efforts?

Their considerations would be in the plane of utilitarian, and as such quite divorced from the issue of moral evaluation. As good tacticians that they generally are, they must know that there are always things that could be done better in any operation, but you can't control every variable, and some things were inevitable.

If you disagree, I'd like to ask you to present some examples of any earth cultures that have had a similar mentality to that which you state.

Every single one which would fit the description of a "warrior society"?

Fuck, editing such textwalls in this interface is not a fun process.

I think sometimes too much is read into that. Loroi civilians are free persons who are denied certain privileges, chiefly military service (and therefore government service), and reproduction. Neither is a "right" in Loroi culture; reproduction, in particular, cannot be considered a "right" for a species that will inevitably overpopulate if breeding is not strictly controlled. Loroi civilians have many freedoms that Loroi warriors do not: they may own property, start a business, and become very wealthy in their own right; they may come and go as they please and are not required to answer to any master save those they choose to work for. And civilian females generally have much longer, more comfortable lives than the majority of warrior females.

Guys he's going Starship Troopers on us again!

[Arioch]

Before anyone asks: I probably won't have the new page up before the end of the evening, but in that event it should go up sometime tomorrow. I'm just really tired.

Perhaps, but wouldn't it be worse to reveal such a thing at the last minute?

I guess we'll find out.

So strictly speaking, would it be accurate to say that, in effect, only 45 percent of Loroi society can act as a catalyst for reproduction, in contrast to humanity's 50%? Is this why the Loroi seem to have a comparatively low population when compared to humans when you consider their time in space as well as the number of habitable worlds near them?

The Loroi population is its current size because reproduction is under strict control. Even if only half of the females were reproducing at capacity (a new generation every 8 or so years), the population would still get out of control in relatively short order.

Warriors aren't allowed to get bribes and have little use for money.

They're also not allowed to stage coups d'etat, so clearly rules were being broken.

Oh, I was actually talking about the local leaders of the rebellion when I said "high command." Technically, they were independent from current government leadership, but, considering they were overseeing actions on a planet-wide scale, and that they were most-likely working within the structure of traditional Loroi military, I thought high-command would be a fitting term.


So, once the planet was lost, I imagine the forces there consolidated under the most senior leaders before they began operations. So, those senior leaders, how are their viewed?

I won't give too much more detail about this, for reasons that will eventually become clear, except to say that I think you overestimate the degree to which the Loroi resistance to the Umiak occupations was an organized military operation.

Also, viewed by whom? Most of the people who were on these colonies did not survive the experience. Those that did were probably involved with the partisans to some degree (as those civilians who remained in the internment camps were butchered like cattle), and so they probably view the partisans as heroes. The Loroi high command views them as heroes, since because of them, the enemy was largely unable to exploit the resources of the captured planets. As for the general Loroi populace, I'm sure opinions vary according to what and how much information they have on the situation, but I expect most would blame the Umiak for occupying and exterminating them, and not the Loroi partisans for fighting back. The Loroi are proud people who are accustomed to being the ones doing the conquering; there was never a chance that they were not going to resist. We may know that the resistance was a key element in the Umiak decision to liquidate the captured populations, but most Loroi don't know that, nor is there any evidence that everything would have been fine if the partisans had just submitted. It wasn't so much what the partisans did as what the Umiak realized they could do. The Umiak are fighting this war largely because they consider the Loroi to be an unacceptable threat, and that threat can never really be eliminated as long as any Loroi are left alive. A single Loroi psi-ops agent is an extremely dangerous thing, and there's no way to identify whether any given Loroi is a civilian or a Mizol waiting for the right moment.

Oh, what did they use to bridge the gap between medieval and nuclear, then?

Manpower, wood and charcoal, biofuels (methane from animal excrement, oils from plant sources, tallow from rendered animal fats), water, wind and solar.

Also, what are Loroi views on pacifism?

The Loroi are in favor of pacifism... in other civilizations. It's much easier to get what you want when the other party can't or won't do anything about it.

They consider it cowardice, of course, but many Loroi do not have a very favorable view of non-Loroi, to begin with.

[White]

Really, I'd imagine knowing about the other scout ships would just incentivise them to work more quickly with him. I doubt the Loroi would think to blame him for the fact that a Human ship might accidentally stumble onto the Umaik.

That's if they decide to give negotiations with the Six Worlds a fair shake. Which they still kinda didn't. Them knowing with certainty about the possibility of humans allying with the Hierarchy regardless of Jardin's efforts only serves to undermine said efforts.

The other ships aren't meant to contact the Umaik. They were just sent out in order to increase the chance that they contact someone. (Which, now that I think about it, seems like a not two well designed mission, since it would open the possibility that two different teams give conflicting promises to the two different sides. Frankly, that would probably make you an enemy of both sides.

On the other hand, though. I suppose one can't be too hard on the mission planners. I imagine they expected most, if not all, of the missions to be failures, not to mention they were running against an invisible clock so sending them one at a time might not have been feasable.

True, but it might delay them for a month or so. Which just might be what you need if you and your ally are rushing to send a fleet out to defend earth.

Hiding your entire base of operations from said prospective ally drastically reduces your chances of making him an ally.

Fair, but you could wait until you have a better sense of your prospective ally before telling them where the planet is. Or wait until they ask, at least. Geez, it's believable, I suppose, from a mission planning sense in hindsight, but him just offering that information still puts me on edge. Perhaps the ominous lighting on Beryl's face is adding to that.

Keep in mind, I mostly just listed that case to highlight the extreme caution Alexander seemed to be displaying by witholding the information about the scout ships.

Eh, Jardin's reasoning is not bound to be flawless in any case. He's in waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over his head, in a state of critical distress, and has to think quick on his feet. So a fast "eh, they will NOT enjoy hearing about this" was all the reasoning required, and it's mostly sound. Shows some cracks if we sit and contemplate it for months - like we do reading the stuff - but Alex was busy contemplating his own survival first. The entire shitload of information dumped on his 19yo brain second, some blue elven curves third, and the deeper implications of every bit of information he chooses to reveal only later. He has the ol' instructions, and besides that he's still largely winging it.

Fair.

Also, Arioch cleared up the population dynamics in his earlier comment. Suffice it to say, the civilian's position makes more sense now.

But contemplation is all the rage right now!
Hey, I didn't say he would or that he even should focus his effort on that. I'm just bringing it up as a point of discussion.

I just feel we're digging in the wrong direction in the wrong substrate in here.

Really? I mean, I won't proclaim it so, but I think Arioch is at least a bit interested in the grittier details of his comic. Other wise, most of the insider wouldn't be around.

Not sure, I'd desribe Loroi virtures as bieng the ability to enact violence.

A warrior's purpose is certainly not "to look pretty". And with the bloody Loroi history, it's probably generally distant from our concept of a garden guardian. Their way, a warrior's worth lies in her courage, glory and lethality, not in what she's defending (that being civilians - who are the least worthy part of society). Damn, now I'm wondering how they would stomach the concept of a soldier - specifically in the difference from the idea of a warrior.

I didn't say they didn't respect strengh. Obviously they do, considering civilian's with telekenises get into the warrior class. I just don't think that's the basis of their morality.

This was what my superman example was about. Superman is exciting and powerful and springs to the imagination of children as they see him defeat villains with his various powers. So, one could say there's an appeal to his strength, and that's part of why he's such a popular charachter.

But, the moral values espoused by superman have very little to do with strength.

Except in the most pedantic sense, I don't think any society has a strength based morality. And, even if the Loroi did, I doubt the commanders of the Seren rebellion could expect applause if they were blamed for the genocide.

(Mind, I'm not assuming that they would be blamed. My orginal question was, in fact, asking weathery they would be blamed or not.)

Of course, they probably respect power, but I think honesty and courage are more in line with their idealizations of morality.

Warrior's honesty. And warrior's courage.

Still, it's a far cry from a morality based on the capacity for personal violence.

If you laid out a list of loroi leaders, I'm pretty sure their "winning features" will probably have little to do with their ability to enact violence

Greywind is the first Azerein who did not rise to this rank from being a frontline commander.

Yeah, that's showing the courage to expose oneself to danger. If, for example, she'd been the first Azerein to not be a powerful telekenetic, then we might have a case that they have a morality of individual strength.

It says there were suspicions of treatchery, but I get the feeling that the accusations were ones of convenience.

Plasma focus can't overload class VI screens. Tinza was an inside job!

Ugh... Look, asshole, a plasma focus can't overload the screen, but it can weaken it! And, that''s the engineering data for one plasma focus at it's maximum effective distance. The former emperor was called in to a massively outnumbered sector with numerous gunship incursions, and, I shouldn't have to remind you, gunships carry torpedoes! And guess where all of those torpedoes were aimed when the flagship showed?

The idea that the Mizol are behind the late emperor's death is probably the dumbest single thing I've ever heard.

Hundreds of ships were lost in the offensive! Do you honestly believe that the Mizol were particularly central to the loss of one?

I mean, why would Greywind even want to sabotage the war effort? Her consort was just behind the Tizna perimiter at the time! And, what do you think exactly happened? The evil Mizol managed to psychically manipulate someone over the radio when they sent over the distress data?

Not to mention, there were numerous loroi and Teidar agents, not one of which has any reputable information regarding this so-called set-up. Thousands of Mizol were interrogated by the opposition. Do you really believe they found hundreds of confirmed cases and just decided not to reveal them before they started a coup!?

I swear, give enough time, and people will be saying the universe is flat.

I used the word to highlight that those indivituals who backed the coup were civilians.

Well, the personal interests of those individuals would be something quite different from the sentiment among the common folk, wouldn't it?

Well, yeah. But, don't they have a personal interest in the continual existence of their nation, or of their species, or at least of their customers? I mean war profeteering in the early stages can be attributed to greed and overconfidence, but this is their Battle of Berlin, their Dunkirk. At this point, any attempt to help overthrow the government because of financial interests is beyond shortsighted.

disagree. I think that coups generally, and in this case, are often a grab for power.

They all are. The question is - how people frame them, for others and for themselves.

Yeah, but even if they frame themselves as heroic patriots, it doesn't mean they are so.

My initial question was expressing confusion as I assumed the Loroi would be more liable to act in a patriotic manner in such situations.

And those nations that were undergoing coups, how many of them were in the process of being completely destroyed by a hostile power?

Eh, several of them, at the very least.

I doubt a seperatist movement allying with the enemy and using the war to carve out a ethnic state can be considered patriotic, or atleast, patriotic to the state it happens to be couping.

The Diadem Axis was not separatist.

I was talking about the WWII nations when I asked if they were separatists.

doubt they're that fanatical.

I have here a couple of exxxxxtremely young and daring pilots to challenge this sentiment.

I don't think they'd be a challange. Of course, they're willing to accept the risk of death, but I doubt they'd cheer for a commander because she got the most soldier's killed.

But it's their commanders I'm wondering about. I mean, what did they accomplish with their efforts?

Their considerations would be in the plane of utilitarian, and as such quite divorced from the issue of moral evaluation. As good tacticians that they generally are, they must know that there are always things that could be done better in any operation, but you can't control every variable, and some things were inevitable.

I don't think that addressed the question though. Their considerations may have been utilitarian, but was the arithmetic correct? They lost fifty million, and I'm asking weather the Loroi would see that as an equitable trade for some time gained.

If you disagree, I'd like to ask you to present some examples of any earth cultures that have had a similar mentality to that which you state.

Every single one which would fit the description of a "warrior society"?

I don't think they would match up to your summarization of the Loroi. They may have accepted the risk of death, but I'm pretty sure every single one valied the lives of it's soldiers and expected commanders to keep them alive as best as possible. Warrior societies, in my view, seem charachterized by discipline and skill rather than fanaticism.

In this case, the difference between diciplne and fanaticism is that the diciplined soldier retreats in an ordered fashion. The fanatic never retreats.

Fuck, editing such textwalls in this interface is not a fun process.

You can just highlight a paragraph and surround it with regular quotes.

I think sometimes too much is read into that. Loroi civilians are free persons who are denied certain privileges, chiefly military service (and therefore government service), and reproduction. Neither is a "right" in Loroi culture; reproduction, in particular, cannot be considered a "right" for a species that will inevitably overpopulate if breeding is not strictly controlled. Loroi civilians have many freedoms that Loroi warriors do not: they may own property, start a business, and become very wealthy in their own right; they may come and go as they please and are not required to answer to any master save those they choose to work for. And civilian females generally have much longer, more comfortable lives than the majority of warrior females.

Guys he's going Starship Troopers on us again!

(Also, got any links to the first time?)

[White]

Before anyone asks: I probably won't have the new page up before the end of the evening, but in that event it should go up sometime tomorrow. I'm just really tired.

Oh, I was actually talking about the local leaders of the rebellion when I said "high command." Technically, they were independent from current government leadership, but, considering they were overseeing actions on a planet-wide scale, and that they were most-likely working within the structure of traditional Loroi military, I thought high-command would be a fitting term.


So, once the planet was lost, I imagine the forces there consolidated under the most senior leaders before they began operations. So, those senior leaders, how are their viewed?

I won't give too much more detail about this, for reasons that will eventually become clear, except to say that I think you overestimate the degree to which the Loroi resistance to the Umiak occupations was an organized military operation.

Also, viewed by whom? Most of the people who were on these colonies did not survive the experience. Those that did were probably involved with the partisans to some degree (as those civilians who remained in the internment camps were butchered like cattle), and so they probably view the partisans as heroes. The Loroi high command views them as heroes, since because of them, the enemy was largely unable to exploit the resources of the captured planets. As for the general Loroi populace, I'm sure opinions vary according to what and how much information they have on the situation, but I expect most would blame the Umiak for occupying and exterminating them, and not the Loroi partisans for fighting back. The Loroi are proud people who are accustomed to being the ones doing the conquering; there was never a chance that they were not going to resist. We may know that the resistance was a key element in the Umiak decision to liquidate the captured populations, but most Loroi don't know that, nor is there any evidence that everything would have been fine if the partisans had just submitted. It wasn't so much what the partisans did as what the Umiak realized they could do. The Umiak are fighting this war largely because they consider the Loroi to be an unacceptable threat, and that threat can never really be eliminated as long as any Loroi are left alive. A single Loroi psi-ops agent is an extremely dangerous thing, and there's no way to identify whether any given Loroi is a civilian or a Mizol waiting for the right moment.

Oh, I meant how the fellow military Loroi who later came to free the systems would view it. As in, would they see the loss of life as neccesary, inevitable, or would the local commanders be charged with gross incompetence?

Of course, this was under the assumption that there were local commanders, who would have learned from their experiences with the Mannadi the potential consequences of such resistance.


(Also, on the Insider, the Highlander Boarding wallpaper seems not to be working.)

[spacewhale]

On a more serious note, is Cloud secretly a super badass?

[Arioch]

(Also, on the Insider, the Highlander Boarding wallpaper seems not to be working.)

Thanks. I've noticed that there is a random smattering of files that didn't get properly re-uploaded, so I appreciate you guys pointing these out when you run across them.

Oh, I meant how the fellow military Loroi who later came to free the systems would view it. As in, would they see the loss of life as neccesary, inevitable, or would the local commanders be charged with gross incompetence?

Of course, this was under the assumption that there were local commanders, who would have learned from their experiences with the Mannadi the potential consequences of such resistance.

It feels strange that you seem determined to blame the Loroi for what the Umiak did to them. So... in WWII, when the Maquis blew up a German train, and the Germans executed French civilians as a reprisal, is it your view that the resistance fighters were responsible for the civilian deaths, and should have been court-martialed for incompetence? (Not sure how you'd do that, as many of them weren't actually soldiers.) Does all the enemy have to do to get you to surrender into enslavement (or worse) is threaten to kill some civilians?

Consider what it means to be a warrior culture and a military oligarchy, and how the Loroi view death and duty. The individual Loroi serve the state, not the other way around. Civilians serve the warrior class, not the other way around. The Steppes partisans didn't know in advance what the Umiak response would be to resistance (though I doubt they thought it would be good), but they also didn't know what the Umiak response would be to surrender and submission, any more than the Jewish Maquis fighter knew what would happen to him family if he surrendered rather than resisting. (Spoiler: it didn't turn out well for those who surrendered.)

On a more serious note, is Cloud secretly a super badass?

I guess we'll find out!

SpoilerShow

It would be amusing if, being the clerk for a high-ranking Mizol, Cloud were actually a deadly plainclothes Mizol operative. Alas, no. But, clerk or not, she's a Soroin first and a gofer girl second.

edit: Ah, crap, the spoiler code doesn't really play well with the dark theme... but you can still read the text if you highlight it. One more thing on the to do list.

[Ithekro]

It is difficult, but spoiler text can be read on the dark theme. While I don't know the coding of this, I do remember I had a program I did at one point allowed the user to pick their own colors, via the color hexadecimal codes, for text and background. But discovered in testing that the program would need to invert the colors on the on page texts against whatever background was being selected, so that the user could read it. (The end result would still be the color the user picked, but the on screen instructions had to swap to be seen regardless of background choice) The only time this was a problem was with some of the greys, since they would still be very close to the same even if you swapped numbers, and thus hard to read.