Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Zorg56]

Their economy with all this state owned sectors really resembles USSR. And warriors and workers are like party and non-party citizens. I wonder if they inherited inefficiency and corruption of Soviet economy.

If it was soviet like, loroi wouldnt struggle to outproduce Umiak.

I am honestly not sure how exactly loroi industry as it is described (some sort of Medieval guild and caste system combination) can produce complex machinery, it requires millions of individuals and huge amount R&D even for relatively minor things today, on their tech level situation should get even worse.
Even if some guild will be able to accumulate enough recources for that, that would be essentially state inside a state, which appears to be absolute no for the warrior caste.

[Arioch]

I am honestly not sure how exactly loroi industry as it is described (some sort of Medieval guild and caste system combination) can produce complex machinery, it requires millions of individuals and huge amount R&D even for relatively minor things today, on their tech level situation should get even worse.
Even if some guild will be able to accumulate enough recources for that, that would be essentially state inside a state, which appears to be absolute no for the warrior caste.

A Loroi guild is an association of companies in a particular trade which have banded together to operate as a single entity. They have had a tendency to grow over time, assimilating all businesses in a similar field and extending to other types of businesses outside that field; in that sense they are not very different from large conglomerate corporations. The chief difference is that they often operate as de-facto monopolies, and that they are self-contained communities with a great deal of pseudo-legal control over their own workers and properties, with very little interference from the military government. This does not imply a limitation on size or how a guild may collaborate with other companies to produce goods; a guild may produce specialized parts as a subcontractor to a larger product, just like any other business. There is an inherent inefficiency to monopolistic behavior and the added overhead of the guild's social responsibilities, but otherwise there isn't a limitation on the kinds, complexity, or amounts of goods they can produce.

Not all Loroi companies operate as guilds. Deinar and to a lesser extent Perrein are still dominated by the guild system, but guilds have had difficulty extending along with the proliferation of new colonies, and it's much harder to maintain monopolistic control over dozens of worlds with different local governments. The Loroi also gained the benefit of observing the examples of the economic systems of their alien neighbors (with whom they still have a lot of business interactions). One of the reasons Seren became an economic powerhouse was that it adopted a less restrictive economic system.

[Hālian]

I note that Taben isn't listed as dominated by the guild system; what's their economy like?

[Arioch]

I note that Taben isn't listed as dominated by the guild system; what's their economy like?

A few Deinar guilds set up shop in Beleri to help modernize the locals after contact, as they were in a fairly primitive state, but the Taben Loroi were and are fiercely independent, and refused to grant the guilds the status as monopolies that they were accustomed to, so their expansion was limited. Taben doesn't have much industrial capacity, with a small population and land area, and limited access to mineral resources. The main exports from the North are marine goods, harvested and exported by a few guilds, a bunch of diverse local companies, and a community of independent ship operators.

Taben has a major fleet base and shipyard facilities, as well as the main Tenoin academy, but these are operated by the government, and the shipyards are mostly supplied from outside the system. There are also a few interstellar shipping companies headquartered here.

The southern Amenal islands had a long tradition of cooperation and free trade before contact, and this continued afterward. Amenal is a center for technology and research & development, and one of the Listel academies is based here. The Pipolsid also have a science academy in the shallow southern waters; there are nearly as many Pipolsid living on Taben as there are Loroi.

[Quickdraw101]

Do the Loroi ever do joint training with any of their various vassals or allies, or military exchange programs where a few officers go to attend various institutions or otherwise observe the performance of their allies? Would they ever allow anyone to do such exercises or would they automatically refuse them?

[Arioch]

Do the Loroi ever do joint training with any of their various vassals or allies, or military exchange programs where a few officers go to attend various institutions or otherwise observe the performance of their allies?

Not so much training, but since they're in a hot war, the Loroi conduct a variety of joint operations with other Union members. However, the Loroi are the only Union member with an offensive military star fleet, so joint operations are mainly limited to supply convoys, patrol, courier and scout work, and base defense. The Loroi fleet does not have an officer exchange program as such, but there are a variety of situations in which Loroi personnel might be aboard an alien vessel or vice versa, as a liaison or advisor, etc. In particular, much of the Neridi frontier is defended by joint Loroi-Neridi forces, so there are a lot of space stations and ground bases in the area with both Loroi and Neridi crews.

Ground forces might be a different situation, since the other Union members do maintain planetside military forces, and the Loroi ground forces do have more time on their hands than their fleet sisters at present.

The non-Union allies, specifically the Nissek and Historians, do not do much in the way of joint operations with the Union.

Would they ever allow anyone to do such exercises or would they automatically refuse them?

They would not "automatically refuse," but I think there would probably need to be a good argument in favor of the necessity for such exercises.

[Mithramuse]

I am honestly not sure how exactly loroi industry as it is described (some sort of Medieval guild and caste system combination) can produce complex machinery, it requires millions of individuals and huge amount R&D even for relatively minor things today, on their tech level situation should get even worse.
Even if some guild will be able to accumulate enough recources for that, that would be essentially state inside a state, which appears to be absolute no for the warrior caste.

A Loroi guild is an association of companies in a particular trade which have banded together to operate as a single entity. They have had a tendency to grow over time, assimilating all businesses in a similar field and extending to other types of businesses outside that field; in that sense they are not very different from large conglomerate corporations. The chief difference is that they often operate as de-facto monopolies, and that they are self-contained communities with a great deal of pseudo-legal control over their own workers and properties, with very little interference from the military government. This does not imply a limitation on size or how a guild may collaborate with other companies to produce goods; a guild may produce specialized parts as a subcontractor to a larger product, just like any other business. There is an inherent inefficiency to monopolistic behavior and the added overhead of the guild's social responsibilities, but otherwise there isn't a limitation on the kinds, complexity, or amounts of goods they can produce.

Sounds a lot like the South Korean Chaebol conglomerates, particularly if you take it back a couple of decades as far as providing social services.

Modern guilds would use modern technology; Zorg56's reference to Medieval guilds is reading too much into the name. Just because it's called a guild doesn't mean they produce goods in the same way (though that's not exactly what was said either, to be fair). And a huge amount of R&D, sure, but millions of individuals is an overstatement for the most part. When you get to the level of an entire product (say, an aircraft), there could be that many people who have been involved (especially if you drill back to e.g. raw material suppliers), but that is broken down into a lot of much smaller pieces, and many of those pieces can be improved upon, upgraded, or otherwise adjusted separately from other pieces in the final product.

--Mithramuse

[Demarquis]

"And if you run afoul of the rules, the folks investigating you will be -- yes, you guessed it -- the Mizol. That's an Internal Affairs unit you seriously don't want to mess with."

That sounds open to some serious abuse.

[Demarquis]

"Would they ever allow anyone to do such exercises or would they automatically refuse them?"

It might be hard, even impossible, to integrate oneself into a crew that relies on telepathy for communication.

[Arioch]

"And if you run afoul of the rules, the folks investigating you will be -- yes, you guessed it -- the Mizol. That's an Internal Affairs unit you seriously don't want to mess with."

That sounds open to some serious abuse.

Yes, and that's part of the reason why the Mizol are distrusted by the other services (though nobody ever likes Internal Affairs), but the Mizol have their own internal system of accountability. I'm reminded of the quote from the KGB director in Chernobyl:

"Yes, people are following you. People are following those people. And you see them? They follow me. The KGB is a circle of accountability. Nothing more."

Now of course, that's pure fiction (both in terms of the series and the real KGB), but it expresses the general idea.

"Would they ever allow anyone to do such exercises or would they automatically refuse them?"

It might be hard, even impossible, to integrate oneself into a crew that relies on telepathy for communication.

Yes... someone should write a webcomic about that subject. Oh wait...

[sasaforestecho]

With all of this discussion of the Mizol, I would like to know more about them. Specifically the training process. What sort of tests and missions do Mizol in training have? Is it more difficult than the other warrior castes? How does it differ from the training of, say, a Teidar.

Can you tell us anything more about Tempo's past? Like her military training and career?

Lastly, have any of our crew ever met Greywind? How common is it for civilians or warriors to see Greywind in person? What kinds of public appearances does she make?

[Bamax]

Does the Loroi Union use a universal money form exchange or do they use multiple?

Meaning depending where you go your dollar with the first Azerein on it will be worth more or less depending where to go in the union.

I can only assume Umiak surely do use a universal money exchange as they value efficiency highly.

[Arioch]

With all of this discussion of the Mizol, I would like to know more about them. Specifically the training process. What sort of tests and missions do Mizol in training have? Is it more difficult than the other warrior castes? How does it differ from the training of, say, a Teidar.

The diral (or "basic" training) for Mizol and Teidar is very similar. The chief difference is that while the Teidar adhere to a strict code of conduct and forgo speech in order to train their telepathic discipline, the Mizol encourage unconventional solutions to problems, and they encourage the cadets to develop their spoken language skills. Pitting diral bands against each other is a relatively common element of most castes, but it is especially emphasized in the Mizol dirals. And, since the main Mizol academy is on Perrein, the outdoor activities are especially hazardous due to the hostile flora and fauna.

The Mizol have a diverse variety of specialties, so even though some of the Mizol techniques can be very difficult and demanding, there are a lot of different possible roles for a Mizol to be assigned to that fit her aptitudes. Psionic training mainly focuses on telepathic abilities, with a secondary focus on niche uses of psychokinesis, especially doing sneaky things with it (and manipulating information and surveillance systems). Probably more than most of the castes, Mizol require much more advanced training in order to be considered ready for field work, even if it's just diplomatic or local intel assignments.

Can you tell us anything more about Tempo's past? Like her military training and career?

Tempo was born in 2106 in the city-state of Eishran on Perrein. Her family used to be part of the powerful Asha clan in the pre-Imperial era, and they are still affluent and have strong ties to the Mizol intelligence community. Tempo was raised in a family creche and enrolled in local Mizol diral. Since she was born before the war, Tempo was still involved in the usual prewar extended education that lasted for decades; in 2135 when the war began, Tempo was still assigned to advanced study at the Mizol academy, where her grandmother is a specialist instructor.

Tempo saw her first action on Perrein during the Bluecrest insurrection (when some old-school brass and civilian plutarchs tried to depose Greywind), and her exploits brought her to the attention of higher authorities. She was shortly after assigned to Section 6, essentially a Mizol special forces team. She spent a number of years performing direct-action missions in contested territory. Eventually she was promoted out of the unit and began being assigned as intelligence officer to various fleet units. Which ultimately led to her being assigned to Tempest.

Lastly, have any of our crew ever met Greywind? How common is it for civilians or warriors to see Greywind in person? What kinds of public appearances does she make?

Yes, Tempo has met Greywind. Greywind occasionally appears at public events, but since they have been at war for the entirety of her term of office, she doesn't have a lot of time for public appearances, and she has most often been near the frontier rather than at home. When she needs to address the public at large, she usually does so with a recorded verbal message.

Does the Loroi Union use a universal money form exchange or do they use multiple?

Meaning depending where you go your dollar with the first Azerein on it will be worth more or less depending where to go in the union.

I can only assume Umiak surely do use a universal money exchange as they value efficiency highly.

The Union uses a variety of different currencies, but it's relatively easy to convert between them. The official currency of the Loroi military government is the "talent," but they also use many different forms of credits and scrip that are only used in certain contexts (like at the local supply depot). The various alien members use their own currency (or currencies), as their economic systems tend to be more advanced than that of the Loroi.

The Umiak are decentralized and are not a "one size fits all" type of culture. They have a lot of diversity in how they address different economic challenges in different contexts and different locations. Efficiency doesn't necessarily mean simplicity, especially in the Umiak point of view.

[sasaforestecho]

Thanks for the quick and detailed response!

[Demarquis]

The currency situation sounds like a potentially lucrative opportunity for a more mercantile culture than the Loroi.

[Arioch]

The currency situation sounds like a potentially lucrative opportunity for a more mercantile culture than the Loroi.

The Neridi in particular agree.

[Moon Moth]

Eventually she was promoted out of the unit and began being assigned as intelligence officer to various fleet units. Which ultimately led to her being assigned to Tempest.

Now I'm wondering about the political implications of this assignment. Tempo sounds unusually senior and skilled; is that accurate? Why would they need to assign such a skilled operative as intelligence officer for a high-fatality raider unit? I'm guessing it's partly to make sure that Stillstorm doesn't start developing a base of support that could be used for a coup. (Which sounds unlikely given what we know of Stillstorm's personality, but why take the chance?) And maybe partly to watch out for signs of mental instability. Or is it simply that someone needed to be the political officer for the unit, and her name was up, and she was either too dutiful a warrior to weasel out or there wasn't a plausibly deniable way to, and the risk would look good on her record?

[Arioch]

Eventually she was promoted out of the unit and began being assigned as intelligence officer to various fleet units. Which ultimately led to her being assigned to Tempest.

Now I'm wondering about the political implications of this assignment. Tempo sounds unusually senior and skilled; is that accurate? Why would they need to assign such a skilled operative as intelligence officer for a high-fatality raider unit? I'm guessing it's partly to make sure that Stillstorm doesn't start developing a base of support that could be used for a coup. (Which sounds unlikely given what we know of Stillstorm's personality, but why take the chance?) And maybe partly to watch out for signs of mental instability. Or is it simply that someone needed to be the political officer for the unit, and her name was up, and she was either too dutiful a warrior to weasel out or there wasn't a plausibly deniable way to, and the risk would look good on her record?

It's a mixed bag... it's obviously not a desirable assignment, but it included a promotion, and it's a job that needs to be done by someone with the skills to do it. Stillstorm is a formidable telepath, so it's not as if they can send just anybody to snoop on her without giving away more than they get.

Raider duty is hazardous, but no less so than the kinds of missions Tempo was performing with Section 6. Tempo is part of the in-group that has favor with Greywind's administration, and they promoted her out of there so that she would be able to continue to climb the ladder (rather than burn out and be killed in direct-action duty), but she's still very young and junior in the eyes of leadership, so her influence is limited. It's not as if she's Greywind's grand-niece or anything. But I can't imagine that Tempo would even try to get out of it.

[Bamax]

Reaction to specific styles will vary according to the musical traditions of the subculture and the tastes of the individual Loroi. Even within a culture, there are Americans who love a particular style of American music and others who hate it.

Also, I think that being able to appreciate the beauty of a particular style of music is not the same as wanting to listen to it on a regular basis. As an example, there are some regional music clips in the Civilization games like Polynesian and Native American vocals and Chinese opera (with its shrieking vocals and relentless hammering cymbals) which I can appreciate in small doses, but after listening to for hours really start to grate on my nerves. Even some Western traditional styles like Gregorian chants, which I find very beautiful, get really old after extended listening (especially those pieces with shrill falsetto solo parts can decalcify the spinal column).

Most Loroi have been exposed to alien music with vocals, so it's not a completely new concept to them. Some like it, some don't.

I think many of the Union cultures would be amused by our pop music's obsession with pair bonding and mating.

I already am amused and I'm human. I find it odd even! That is why among other reasons I mostly listen to instrumental and classical music. It means whatever you want it to mean, but with lyrics? There is only so much INDOCTRINATION I can take... because frankly that's what it is in my opinion. Trying to sell your point of view through music. Maybe I am stubborn, but I have never liked salesmen trying to sell me something I never was looking or asking for.

[Demarquis]

"It's a mixed bag... it's obviously not a desirable assignment, but it included a promotion, and it's a job that needs to be done by someone with the skills to do it. Stillstorm is a formidable telepath, so it's not as if they can send just anybody to snoop on her without giving away more than they get."

And then Alex showed up! One day, Arioch, I may attempt to bribe you to reveal exactly what Tempo and Stillstorm were saying to each other in their heads with Alex on the bridge. That had to have been a master class in deft psychological maneuver.