Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

GURPS (3e) Space, chapter 10 “Stars & Worlds”, pp146-164, is a decent guide for world-building, and chapter 11 is a useful guide for constructing civilizations.

The version I own is first edition and it's in storage somewhere; I don't recall whether it had such a system, but I can see one in the PDF for the fourth edition version, both for planets and for solar systems. That's nice.

[Werra]

Wild animals are NOT domesticated even when you try to.

Some animals are more suited for domestication whereas others are more... wild and unpredictable.

Look no further than chimpanzees that go berserk even after living with humans for years.

That is why laws are against even trying to domesticate.

Wild animals cannot be fully trusted.

Just because an animal has lived with humans for years does not mean it is domesticated. You would have to purposefully breed chimpanzees to be more friendly and docile. Which nobody has done, since if we wanted a friendly ape, we could just call up a friend. But it's totally possible and the general principle has been proven.

An example that's often brought up is the question of why zebras were never domesticated in Africa, even though they're very closely related to horses; there are probably multiple reasons, but the most obvious one is that they're extremely skittish, ornery animals.

So are horses. The main reason zebras weren't domesticated is that we had domesticated the horse first. Some people have actually tamed zebras, but by and large since they did not have had the thousands of generations of selective breeding with humans empirically attempting to create a race more useful to them, the only reason one could have to want to ride a zebra instead of a horse is eccentricity or a love of challenge.

From what I understand, Neolithic Eurasian nomads herded horses primarily for food alongside cattle and sheep for a long time before they learned to ride them, and I think it's quite likely that selective breeding over that time helped make that possible. But as far as I'm aware, no African tribes were able to do the same with zebras, and you can't selectively breed animals if they won't breed for you, so you have to be able to get to the first stage before you can move farther down the road to domestication. There's a big difference between having a pet zebra and having a captive breeding population of zebras.

Page 60 (64 in the pdf) I wish the critiques of Guns, Germs and Steel had as much reach as the book.

[Keklas Rekobah]

@Arioch: How are those who fail their diral “cadre trials” usually treated by their peers and relatives? Are they shunned or merely disdained? Does it depend on caste and whether it is military our civilian?

Thanx!

[Arioch]

How are those who fail their diral “cadre trials” usually treated by their peers and relatives? Are they shunned or merely disdained? Does it depend on caste and whether it is military our civilian?

I'm not sure what you mean by "cadre trials." I you mean the ritual trials that are part of the diral graduation, failure is fairly serious, as it means either quitting or having alienated one's diral-mates to the point of them refusing to help her. A warrior candidate who drops from the diral program is expelled from warrior society, and that includes her friends and family.

A civilian is someone who failed or quit the warrior diral, so there's no such thing as a "civilian diral."

If you're referring to regular training exercises in the diral period and afterward, these are more conventional and less ritual. Some degree of failure is a normal part of the learning process.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Thanx again, Arioch! You answered my question with the first two paragraphs. The third provided new data.

(I had forgotten the word ‘diral’, used ‘cadre trials’ as a place filler, submitted the post, looked for ‘diral’, added ‘diral’ to the post, and forgot to delete ‘cadre trials’.)

[Bamax]

Just curious what the Loroi education is like.

Like no doubt they learn reading, writing and math, but how far do they take it?

In the USA how far one goes into reading, writing, or math is up to him/her and how much they wanna repay in student loans or pay in tuition.


I have a sneaking feeling that Loroi training is more focused than the average freshman at a community college or college university.

Like I doubt a Listel with an interest in the arts will be given a lot of options to explore them at her main school.

If anything... skills not related to the military would be hobbies they could take classes on during their free time I presume.

I am going to guess that ironically as much as some warriors deride civillians, civillians might have more freedom as to which career and interests they pursue.

Last... how skilled are the average Loroi warriors at reading, writing, and math?

On par with average human soldiers or worse?

I would laugh hard if Alex gave the Loroi a few math problems and they got it wrong.

Beryl would likely kick butt at math.... it's Talon and Spiral that give cause for concern lol. Nah... just Spiral. Then again for all I know Spiral may have a knack for math but has poor foreign language skills.... probably is a bit challenged in reading and writing too. Like many Americans she probably misspells stuff.... but is successful at life in spite of that.

I have had several bosses who literally misspelled messages they wrote on a board for employees to read.

Spelling is important, but not as important as I would have believed as a student since obviously my bosses made more money than me.

Such people do exist and are more common than those with a knack for both I presume

[Snoofman]

@Bamax
I imagine that, since loroi warriors have to understand manuals and labels plus press a lot of buttons on ships, reading and writing is a must and at least on par with common humans. Beryl definitely needs to be a math genius as a scientist and listel. Talon and Spural not so much. Though as pilots and navigators they might need to calculate ship trajectories and how much fuel their maneuvers will spend.

I guess in the end it all boils down to how relevant the knowledge is to their roles. One problem with human education, particularly American college, is that students are forced to study courses irrelevant to their desired choice of career. A real joy kill in education and terribly inefficient.

I’m sure loroi as a warrior race that want instant results don’t have the patience for tedious courses and would not appreciate humanity college.

[avatar576]

I'll take a stab at this one:

To start with, since Loroi children grow and mature at about twice the rate of human children, they simply don't have the time for an education as extensive as that of humans. They are entering active military service about the same time that a human child is entering 6th or 7th grade.

I would guess that there is not a very high emphasis on reading or writing beyond the fundamental ability to compose and comprehend written messages since there is little to no written literature in Loroi culture. Spelling would not be difficult. For the most part, it seems like spelling in Loroi Trade is pretty much phonetic, considering the concepts of silent e's and other peculiarities of written English were foreign concepts to Beryl.

Likewise, in terms of mathematics, they are probably not taught much beyond basic arithmetic until they arrive at their caste-specific academies. The support castes (Doranzer, Gallen, Listel) would probably have more mathematical training than a Soroin, but this would be limited to the types of math they might encounter in their respective roles in the fleet. The rest is handled by computers. As such, the Loroi in the story (Beryl in particular) may very well be quite impressed by (or else, highly suspicious of) Alex's mathematical abilities. At the very least, he should be competent in algebra, trig, and calculus; and being a pilot, he's probably taken some courses in spacecraft attitude dynamics and orbit mechanics, which, in turn, requires knowledge of linear and matrix algebra.

The average human soldier, sailor, airman or marine has had at least a high school education. In the US that's 13 years of formal education on top of what they have learned through experience from birth up until they enter school. By the time the average member of the armed forces enters active service, he or she has already outlived many Loroi warriors. I'd say the average human warrior has been taught far more in the way of reading, writing and mathematics than the average Loroi. But what the average human and Loroi warrior actually retains and remembers from school is another matter.

On the subject of art and hobbies, there probably isn't very much room in the average warrior's life for this, especially in the current state of affairs. While we don't know much about the personal lives of the Loroi characters yet, the Loroi in general don't really strike me as being "warrior bards" or "warrior poets" or really having much in the way of cultural refinement. I doubt you would find very many "elective" courses at a Loroi training academy as, again, they mature very rapidly, and so there is a serious time constraint to prepare them for life in the military. Any artistic pursuits or other personal endeavors would have to be done on their own free time.

[Snoofman]

@avatar576
You make a compelling argument. But it could be argued that, since loroi grow faster, perhaps they were designed to learn faster as well. Either that or the diral graduates have a follow up education.

I almost think it is the former. Take Talon and Spiral for instance. Talon is only, what… 13 years old? Spiral probably of similar age. If I understand correctly they were deployed almost immediately after their trials. If that is true then either they had a formal education before their trials… or they have been forced to study while serving in the fleet.

[Demarquis]

Or the war has forced Loroi society to make compromises. How long do you think our current system of education would last if we were fighting a generations long war of mutual extermination?

[Arioch]

Just curious what the Loroi education is like.
Like no doubt they learn reading, writing and math, but how far do they take it?
In the USA how far one goes into reading, writing, or math is up to him/her and how much they wanna repay in student loans or pay in tuition.
I have a sneaking feeling that Loroi training is more focused than the average freshman at a community college or college university.

How far Loroi education goes depends heavily on the aptitudes and role of the individual. Because Loroi have short childhoods but (potentially) very long adult livespans, elementary education is compressed and focused, but "higher" education can extend for many decades into adult life, rather than being limited to a few years at university.

Loroi warrior education can be divided into four phases: elementary education, diral training, military academy training, and post-graduate education.

Elementary education is very short but focused. This are partially aided by the effectiveness of telepathic teaching techniques -- a Loroi teacher can deliver more information in the same time than a verbal lecture, and she can efficiently determine through telepathic feedback which students understand the material and to what degree without spending a lot of time on testing or relying on the students to ask questions. The creche system also means that most Loroi students are living at the school, so that helps with the intensity of the education. They cover similar subjects as our modern Western elementary education (basic language, math and very basic science), though maybe less finger-painting and literature analysis. (I have the feeling that about 80% of our K-6 education is essentially day care, just filling time to keep the kids socialized and occupied while their parents are at work.)

The diral phase is mostly extended basic military training, and so there is relatively little classroom teaching going on, though specialist dirals like Tenoin or Listel focus more on specific professional skills than a generalized Soroin diral.

The academy training phase is most directly analogous to a modern university education, with the distinction that it's a military academy, and so generally lacks many courses in advanced basketweaving or interpretive dance. The length and depth of this education depends heavily on the intended role of the student: courses for infantry may be very short, and some roles (like a Paset clerk like Cloud) may receive very little up-front training at all. However, many positions in an ultra-tech military are highly technical, and so typical academy stays are 2-4 years.

The first three phases of Loroi education are designed around getting a fast-maturing soldier into action as quickly as possible. Most of what we would consider "higher education" is part of Loroi post-graduate study. This is a combination of on the job training and intermittent course work and independent study over the course of a Loroi warrior's life. The advanced education required for roles like a starship design and research & development is accumulated over an extended period, rather than concentrated in dedicated time as a student. A scientist or engineer would usually start in some kind of basic role (such as Listel or Gallen or Soroin) and work her way up over time. This phase would also be where most elective study is done, such as in the arts, etc.

[Snoofman]

I think I understand how modern loroi trade with the Talent currency and can deduce how Guild contracts might work. But how did loroi trade during the Reign of Chaos when they were not fighting? What currency survived best through the ages? I've read in the lexicon that they had a copper coin called Beinzol, which suggests that they traded in metals like humans. Or did they have Trade agreements? For example, two city-states would trade (?) pounds of misesa grain in exchange for (?) slivers of iron.

In fact, what was considered the most valuable metal(s) during the Reign of Chaos? Iron perhaps? I can't imagine a warrior race placing a lot of value on gold since gold makes for a poor weapon. At best gold does not rust but mixing it with iron is like trying to get oil and water to merge.

[Arioch]

I think I understand how modern loroi trade with the Talent currency and can deduce how Guild contracts might work. But how did loroi trade during the Reign of Chaos when they were not fighting? What currency survived best through the ages? I've read in the lexicon that they had a copper coin called Beinzol, which suggests that they traded in metals like humans. Or did they have Trade agreements? For example, two city-states would trade (?) pounds of misesa grain in exchange for (?) slivers of iron.

In fact, what was considered the most valuable metal(s) during the Reign of Chaos? Iron perhaps? I can't imagine a warrior race placing a lot of value on gold since gold makes for a poor weapon. At best gold does not rust but mixing it with iron is like trying to get oil and water to merge.

Coinage is a product of civilization, which did not exist during the Reign of Chaos (or on Earth prior to around 4000 BC). Hunter gatherer cultures trade through barter, usually without a currency. Sometimes de facto currencies develop, like beads or shells or some other valuable commodity. This would vary by region and subculture, but the Loroi of this period were mostly not big into trading... they were more into killing you and taking your stuff.

Unsurprisingly, iron was very valuable during this period, but gold and other metals were also valuable. Historically on Earth, at least, warrior cultures valued ornamentation just as much as other cultures. If not more so, since that's often what they raided for.

[gaerzi]

A civilian is someone who failed or quit the warrior diral, so there's no such thing as a "civilian diral."

Has there ever been instances of raising the metaphorical bar because there just weren't enough civilians to support the warriors, so trials were made harder to fail more people?

[Arioch]

A civilian is someone who failed or quit the warrior diral, so there's no such thing as a "civilian diral."

Has there ever been instances of raising the metaphorical bar because there just weren't enough civilians to support the warriors, so trials were made harder to fail more people?

This is not usual. In cases where there is a shortage of workers or support personnel, warriors can fill these roles.

[Snoofman]

A civilian is someone who failed or quit the warrior diral, so there's no such thing as a "civilian diral."

Has there ever been instances of raising the metaphorical bar because there just weren't enough civilians to support the warriors, so trials were made harder to fail more people?

This is not usual. In cases where there is a shortage of workers or support personnel, warriors can fill these roles.

I understand the warrior loroi must place emphasis on duty and flexibility and therefore be prepared to take on jobs not to their liking for the good of the group, but would't having warriors take over civilians' job en masse create instability (however temporary or long-lasting)? Since the warriors depend on civilians to supply them with their goods, if we ignore the warriors' eagerness to trade with aliens over inferior civilians, it would seem to me that many warriors would be unprepared to take on civilian tasks even if they are willing.

[Arioch]

Has there ever been instances of raising the metaphorical bar because there just weren't enough civilians to support the warriors, so trials were made harder to fail more people?

This is not usual. In cases where there is a shortage of workers or support personnel, warriors can fill these roles.

I understand the warrior loroi must place emphasis on duty and flexibility and therefore be prepared to take on jobs not to their liking for the good of the group, but would't having warriors take over civilians' job en masse create instability (however temporary or long-lasting)? Since the warriors depend on civilians to supply them with their goods, if we ignore the warriors' eagerness to trade with aliens over inferior civilians, it would seem to me that many warriors would be unprepared to take on civilian tasks even if they are willing.

Many jobs that we consider 'civilian' are normally done by warriors, including most civil, government and public services jobs, and like the Roman legions, it was common for Loroi infantry to engage in construction, public works labor and civil engineering. Even within the military proper, most jobs are support rather than front-line fighting. Warriors are prohibited from owning businesses or engaging in commerce for personal profit, but they are part of the work force.

It was very unusual for there to be a proportional shortage of civilian population, as civilians live longer than warriors, and population centers were off-limits as targets during wartime. If a shortage did occur, I think a more palatable long-term solution would be to let some of the civilians have children, rather than disrupt the traditional training regimen and deliberately flunk competent warrior candidates, condemning them to the shame of expulsion from warrior society.

[Snoofman]

What are the names of some of the political parties within the Diaderet? I’ve heard of the Traditionalists, but what about others? And what does each party represent?

[Arioch]

What are the names of some of the political parties within the Diaderet? I’ve heard of the Traditionalists, but what about others? And what does each party represent?

Within the larger Loroi bureaucracy, there are essentially only two political parties: the supporters of the current Azerein, and the opposition party, known as the Loroi Axis. The Axis are, in general, a group that desires a return to the decentralized republican government, preferring local rule to the imperial system.

The Diadem is essentially the Loroi cabinet, so it may not surprise you to learn that all the current Diadem members are supporters of Greywind, since those who are not were purged following the failed 2140 coup attempt.

[Snoofman]

What are the names of some of the political parties within the Diaderet? I’ve heard of the Traditionalists, but what about others? And what does each party represent?

Within the larger Loroi bureaucracy, there are essentially only two political parties: the supporters of the current Azerein, and the opposition party, known as the Loroi Axis. The Axis are, in general, a group that desires a return to the decentralized republican government, preferring local rule to the imperial system.

The Diadem is essentially the Loroi cabinet, so it may not surprise you to learn that all the current Diadem members are supporters of Greywind, since those who are not were purged following the failed 2140 coup attempt.

How many Council Members are there?