Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

1. What is the limiting factor for the Loroi (point-defense) laser cannons' damage output? Focusing, materials, power conversion, emitter strength, or just the unwillingness to invest too much effort into a largely obsolete technology? Then, why not switch to blasters?

If you mean: what prevents scaling up laser weapons? Well, nothing. You can build laser main batteries, and some lower-tech factions like humanity do. Heavy lasers are also still in use as ground-based batteries. The total limitation of the number and power of weapons mounts on your ship is going to be a combination of physical size, weight, power transmission infrastructure and cost. The logic behind having separate main batteries and point-defense weaponry is that you can usually have several point-defense mounts for the same cost and ship infrastructure as a single main battery, and when the goal is to engage a larger number of smaller targets, that's a practical benefit.

If you mean: what prevents endlessly dialing up the power setting of point-defense lasers by pumping more power into them? A laser emitter is not an unlimited energy spigot. Any mechanism is going to going to have a maximum rated power past which components will start to fail. I'm not a mechanical engineer from 2202, so I'm wary of speculating on exactly which components will fail at what power loads, but I think it's reasonable to suppose that higher power will require a larger and more robust (and more expensive) mechanism.

The reason why lasers see limited use among the major combatants as ship-to-ship weapons is that they are relatively easy to defeat with reflective or ablative armor layers. The reasons why the Loroi still use them are mainly that a) they're a flexible utility weapon, able to strike through atmosphere or through deflector screens at unarmored vulnerable points, and b) they're a home-grown technology that the Loroi have a lot of experience with and confidence in, unlike the foreign technologies of particle blasters and plasma foci. The Loroi laser autocannons are very efficient and a bit overpowered for what they do (so that they can still penetrate small targets with anti-laser armor), which the Loroi like because it gives them extra range to be used offensively against hypothetical weak points on larger targets or against ground targets. If you could somehow double or triple laser autocannon power, that would be nice, but I doubt it would be a game-changer.

2. A similar case, do other factors, aside from the "uncertainty of hyperspace", limit jump range ? Maybe there's an upper limit to jump field generator power intake or output as well? Or is the hyperspace itself the limiting factor? What's the longest jump that was ever attempted, by Humans or Loroi?

The fundamental limitation on jump accuracy is that for the TL10-11 combatants, ships are blind in hyperspace and so can't make course corrections. This means that even if the curvature of hyperspacetime was perfectly smooth, there would be a fundamental limit to effective range because everything depends on the initial conditions. There will be a limit to how accurately you can measure your ship's course and position relative to all the nearby masses, and that uncertainty will govern the probability of success. The fact that hyperspacetime is not perfectly smooth only adds to this uncertainty... like shooting a billiards ball on a fabric-surface pool table versus a hard tabletop. The maximum safe range between two points will vary depending on the number, location and size of other masses in the vicinity, so it will be different for each circumstance, and what probability of failure you consider "safe."

If you're looking for a technology to extend jump range, some kind of sensor system that can operate while in hyperspace is what's needed. That's what's meant by the "hyperspace metrics" entry in the tech level chart.

3. How well do the Loroi understand the Hierarchy's technology, especially the plastron field? Or is that nothing that would benefit their ship design, so it's not a priority?

Being able to understand a foreign technology and being able to reproduce it on an industrial scale are not necessarily the same thing. As a general rule, the Umiak are a little bit ahead of the Loroi in their materials technologies, and so there are Umiak systems that the Loroi can't reproduce exactly, but also vice-versa. In this case, the Floater Drive outperforms the Plastron Drive in terms of maximum output, which is what the Loroi want, while the Plastron drive is more efficient, which is what the Umiak want. The compact, blob shapes of Umiak vessels are suited to a field that covers the whole ship, while the lanky Loroi ship designs are not. The large vanes that stick out the back of Floater Drives are (comparatively) fragile, which the Umiak don't like, especially since the Loroi have accurate screen-piercing secondary batteries.

[Cthulhu]

The Loroi laser autocannons are very efficient and a bit overpowered for what they do (so that they can still penetrate small targets with anti-laser armor), which the Loroi like because it gives them extra range to be used offensively against hypothetical weak points on larger targets or against ground targets. If you could somehow double or triple laser autocannon power, that would be nice, but I doubt it would be a game-changer.

Yes, I was looking for this explanation, looks like it's not an issue of technological limitations, but merely a design decision.

The fundamental limitation on jump accuracy is that for the TL10-11 combatants, ships are blind in hyperspace and so can't make course corrections. This means that even if the curvature of hyperspacetime was perfectly smooth, there would be a fundamental limit to effective range because everything depends on the initial conditions. There will be a limit to how accurately you can measure your ship's course and position relative to all the nearby masses, and that uncertainty will govern the probability of success. The fact that hyperspacetime is not perfectly smooth only adds to this uncertainty... like shooting a billiards ball on a fabric-surface pool table versus a hard tabletop. The maximum safe range between two points will vary depending on the number, location and size of other masses in the vicinity, so it will be different for each circumstance, and what probability of failure you consider "safe."

Okay, so the limiting factor is not "unable to jump far enough", but solely the "unlikely to arrive" part, got it.

Being able to understand a foreign technology and being able to reproduce it on an industrial scale are not necessarily the same thing. As a general rule, the Umiak are a little bit ahead of the Loroi in their materials technologies, and so there are Umiak systems that the Loroi can't reproduce exactly, but also vice-versa. In this case, the Floater Drive outperforms the Plastron Drive in terms of maximum output, which is what the Loroi want, while the Plastron drive is more efficient, which is what the Umiak want. The compact, blob shapes of Umiak vessels are suited to a field that covers the whole ship, while the lanky Loroi ship designs are not. The large vanes that stick out the back of Floater Drives are (comparatively) fragile, which the Umiak don't like, especially since the Loroi have accurate screen-piercing secondary batteries.

But wouldn't the Plastron system be more useful for support ships of the Union, where acceleration is secondary to efficiency? Or is the Floater drive better understood, and therefore, still preferred over a (probably) poorer copy of the Plastron?


Thank you for the answers, but I still have some questions left. Let's switch from physics to something else, have you fleshed out Deinars history? So for example, when was the Menelos Empire founded, ca. 4000 years before SYU? And when did it collapse? Also, where would be the western highlands on the map here? The sandy areas are deserts, so perhaps the brown patches between Adadis and Gondar? Where was Gondar when the Westfold fell?

[Bamax]

1. What is the limiting factor for the Loroi (point-defense) laser cannons' damage output? Focusing, materials, power conversion, emitter strength, or just the unwillingness to invest too much effort into a largely obsolete technology? Then, why not switch to blasters?

If you mean: what prevents scaling up laser weapons? Well, nothing. You can build laser main batteries, and some lower-tech factions like humanity do. Heavy lasers are also still in use as ground-based batteries. The total limitation of the number and power of weapons mounts on your ship is going to be a combination of physical size, weight, power transmission infrastructure and cost. The logic behind having separate main batteries and point-defense weaponry is that you can usually have several point-defense mounts for the same cost and ship infrastructure as a single main battery, and when the goal is to engage a larger number of smaller targets, that's a practical benefit.

If you mean: what prevents endlessly dialing up the power setting of point-defense lasers by pumping more power into them? A laser emitter is not an unlimited energy spigot. Any mechanism is going to going to have a maximum rated power past which components will start to fail. I'm not a mechanical engineer from 2202, so I'm wary of speculating on exactly which components will fail at what power loads, but I think it's reasonable to suppose that higher power will require a larger and more robust (and more expensive) mechanism.

The reason why lasers see limited use among the major combatants as ship-to-ship weapons is that they are relatively easy to defeat with reflective or ablative armor layers. The reasons why the Loroi still use them are mainly that a) they're a flexible utility weapon, able to strike through atmosphere or through deflector screens at unarmored vulnerable points, and b) they're a home-grown technology that the Loroi have a lot of experience with and confidence in, unlike the foreign technologies of particle blasters and plasma foci. The Loroi laser autocannons are very efficient and a bit overpowered for what they do (so that they can still penetrate small targets with anti-laser armor), which the Loroi like because it gives them extra range to be used offensively against hypothetical weak points on larger targets or against ground targets. If you could somehow double or triple laser autocannon power, that would be nice, but I doubt it would be a game-changer.

2. A similar case, do other factors, aside from the "uncertainty of hyperspace", limit jump range ? Maybe there's an upper limit to jump field generator power intake or output as well? Or is the hyperspace itself the limiting factor? What's the longest jump that was ever attempted, by Humans or Loroi?

The fundamental limitation on jump accuracy is that for the TL10-11 combatants, ships are blind in hyperspace and so can't make course corrections. This means that even if the curvature of hyperspacetime was perfectly smooth, there would be a fundamental limit to effective range because everything depends on the initial conditions. There will be a limit to how accurately you can measure your ship's course and position relative to all the nearby masses, and that uncertainty will govern the probability of success. The fact that hyperspacetime is not perfectly smooth only adds to this uncertainty... like shooting a billiards ball on a fabric-surface pool table versus a hard tabletop. The maximum safe range between two points will vary depending on the number, location and size of other masses in the vicinity, so it will be different for each circumstance, and what probability of failure you consider "safe."

If you're looking for a technology to extend jump range, some kind of sensor system that can operate while in hyperspace is what's needed. That's what's meant by the "hyperspace metrics" entry in the tech level chart.

3. How well do the Loroi understand the Hierarchy's technology, especially the plastron field? Or is that nothing that would benefit their ship design, so it's not a priority?

Being able to understand a foreign technology and being able to reproduce it on an industrial scale are not necessarily the same thing. As a general rule, the Umiak are a little bit ahead of the Loroi in their materials technologies, and so there are Umiak systems that the Loroi can't reproduce exactly, but also vice-versa. In this case, the Floater Drive outperforms the Plastron Drive in terms of maximum output, which is what the Loroi want, while the Plastron drive is more efficient, which is what the Umiak want. The compact, blob shapes of Umiak vessels are suited to a field that covers the whole ship, while the lanky Loroi ship designs are not. The large vanes that stick out the back of Floater Drives are (comparatively) fragile, which the Umiak don't like, especially since the Loroi have accurate screen-piercing secondary batteries.

Neither am I an engineer of the 2200's, that said, I have frequented kerbal forums enough to know that lasers either must or may scale up in size if you either want farther range or to prevent overheating.... without using much active cooling.

The larger your laser lens the farther you can shoot/focus a beam before it spreads out into a fat cone doing zero damage. Thus using high powered numerous smaller laser PDC is indeed a viable tactic as far as science goes for the Loroi versus IRL. The engineering would require some efficient cooling though for the lasers. Loroi may use regenerative cooling for their lasers... pumping cold propellant through the lasing chamber walls to keep it from melting. Which is on par with how IRL rocket nozzles use it. This also means that a high powered laser shot hitting a laser cannon with said regnerative cooling may blow it up.... assuming it is being actively cooled and has propellant running through it.

Obviously the larger the laser the heavier it is, and a single big laser cannon ship would be both powerful and vulnerable at the same time. A giant but murderous glass cannon.

Umiak have so many ships they will be annoyed and just drown it in numbers though.

[Demarquis]

My understanding is that, if the targeting system is accurate enough, a ship (or even several different ships) can combine the output of several small lasers by aiming at the same precise point, thus increasing damage and extending range.

[Bamax]

Not sure if doing that increases range... if so some references you can cite would prove it.

It is true that the more the merrier damage output you gain by focusing multiple lasers on target... but that is rather obvious.

[Tamri]

My understanding is that, if the targeting system is accurate enough, a ship (or even several different ships) can combine the output of several small lasers by aiming at the same precise point, thus increasing damage and extending range.

Judging by this article, it hardly makes sense to talk about concentration on a point - the silhouette of the target will in any case be less than the scattering cone.

[Arioch]

But wouldn't the Plastron system be more useful for support ships of the Union, where acceleration is secondary to efficiency? Or is the Floater drive better understood, and therefore, still preferred over a (probably) poorer copy of the Plastron?

I doubt that a newly reverse-engineered drive system would be more cost-effective than the system that they have been using for centuries, but even if it were, I don't think it would be wise to halt production to redesign and retool all of your ship and engine manufacturing in the middle of a war. The plastron system requires radically different ship designs; the engines need to be within the main hull rather than out on pylons, which means a lot of extra internal shielding and heat management, and/or slowly fatal radiation doses for the crews.

The different drive systems are just a fictional justification for why the Loroi and Umiak ships look very different. The real reason they look different should be obvious: so you can tell them apart even if all you see is a silhouette. So no, the Loroi won't be building Umiak-style ships anytime soon.

Let's switch from physics to something else, have you fleshed out Deinars history? So for example, when was the Menelos Empire founded, ca. 4000 years before SYU? And when did it collapse? Also, where would be the western highlands on the map here? The sandy areas are deserts, so perhaps the brown patches between Adadis and Gondar?

Yes, I have a timeline for Deinar history. The founding myth of Arran sets the founding date for the city of Menelos at 4462 BCE, when the semi-mythical figure "Lawbringer" (Lanzatamadi) brought the barbarian tribes out of the desert and established the Telabel Lanzaid, the Loroi system of caste and population control. (This is only semi-historical, as archaeology shows evidence of much earlier settlements in the area, and that the caste system had already been in use in a number of locations for centuries by that time). The Empire of Arran never "fell" exactly; the nation still exists in 2160, though most of its territory (including Menelos) was lost to Zaral in the World War from 835-842 CE.

The "western highlands" refer to the general region of Zaral and Deben.

[Cthulhu]

Yes, I have a timeline for Deinar history. The founding myth of Arran sets the founding date for the city of Menelos at 4462 BCE, when the semi-mythical figure "Lawbringer" (Lanzatamadi) brought the barbarian tribes out of the desert and established the Telabel Lanzaid, the Loroi system of caste and population control. (This is only semi-historical, as archaeology shows evidence of much earlier settlements in the area, and that the caste system had already been in use in a number of locations for centuries by that time). The Empire of Arran never "fell" exactly; the nation still exists in 2160, though most of its territory (including Menelos) was lost to Zaral in the World War from 835-842 CE.

The "western highlands" refer to the general region of Zaral and Deben.

Thanks, I didn't know that it was fleshed out to such a degree. Or is that merely something you remember, honored Nedathan? (or what rank does your avatar have?)

I thought about writing a "legend" kind of fanfic next, so it obviously needs to adhere to the timeline, as well as to historical and geographical data.

Did the Arran empire also had it share of this highland territory, since it's referred to as the "culture of Western Deinar" alongside Zaral? Also, where did the Barraid racial group live, the highlands of Zaral and Deben, but not Menelos, who were Tadan?

[Demarquis]

My understanding is that, if the targeting system is accurate enough, a ship (or even several different ships) can combine the output of several small lasers by aiming at the same precise point, thus increasing damage and extending range.

Judging by this article, it hardly makes sense to talk about concentration on a point - the silhouette of the target will in any case be less than the scattering cone.

I can only assume that the beam spread is exaggerated in that diagram for purposes of illustration. Given normal optics, there should be a center of greatest intensity even to a beam that has diverged for a considerable distance. By overlapping the centers of the beams, the energy delivered to the target is added together to a greater total than any one beam could have produced along.

[Bamax]

Is it frowned on for a Teidar to use her telekinesis in frivolous mundane ways?

Example? Instead of pulling a shelf out she uses TK. Instead of grabbing a fork she uses TK to hover food off her plate into her mouth.

Think of a Teidar who loves to show off simply to be the center of attention even when it is not necessary.

Obviously this is not one like Fireblade.

So... is a frivolous too haughty/lazy to pick up a fork and rather use TK to eat Teidar frowned on among Loroi or not?

[Arioch]

Thanks, I didn't know that it was fleshed out to such a degree. Or is that merely something you remember, honored Nedathan? (or what rank does your avatar have?)

I modeled early Deinar history using a playthrough of Civilization IV, so I have a somewhat detailed timeline. I'll see if I can work it into something presentable.

Did the Arran empire also had it share of this highland territory, since it's referred to as the "culture of Western Deinar" alongside Zaral? Also, where did the Barraid racial group live, the highlands of Zaral and Deben, but not Menelos, who were Tadan?

In general, the Barraid were in the western part of the continent (Deben), the Tadan were in the central region running from Malia to Arran, and the Login were in the east (Nesed) and far north (and on the western continent, not pictured). Each region had its own distinct subculture, but because they were all on the same continent, there were shared elements of culture, especially when it came to warfare and diplomacy.

The ethnic distribution of Mestirot looks something like this:

mestirot-ethnic-map.jpg (144.14 KiB) Viewed 19972 times

Is it frowned on for a Teidar to use her telekinesis in frivolous mundane ways?
Example? Instead of pulling a shelf out she uses TK. Instead of grabbing a fork she uses TK to hover food off her plate into her mouth.
Think of a Teidar who loves to show off simply to be the center of attention even when it is not necessary.
Obviously this is not one like Fireblade.
So... is a frivolous too haughty/lazy to pick up a fork and rather use TK to eat Teidar frowned on among Loroi or not?

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "frowned on," and who is doing the frowning. The Teidar caste considers its training to be serious and solemn, and Teidar elders would frown upon someone like Mothwing using her TK to fly around the corridors and juggling and playing keep-away with other people's objects, but that doesn't mean that stopped Mothwing from doing it, nor does it mean that all non-Teidar share this dour view.

[Bamax]

Cool... that would be fun to see.

So we have serious Teidar like Fireblade.... but practical jokers also exist.

I ilke it!

[Cthulhu]

I modeled early Deinar history using a playthrough of Civilization IV, so I have a somewhat detailed timeline.

Civilization IV with elves and magic? Sounds like this mod: Fall from Heaven II. Also, did Zaral win because you played them?

I'll see if I can work it into something presentable.

It would be very interesting to see more of your awesome background setting, but it's not exactly a priority. I'm still in the middle of my current fanfic, anyway. Just take your time.

In general, the Barraid were in the western part of the continent (Deben), the Tadan were in the central region running from Malia to Arran, and the Login were in the east (Nesed) and far north (and on the western continent, not pictured). Each region had its own distinct subculture, but because they were all on the same continent, there were shared elements of culture, especially when it came to warfare and diplomacy.

Does the nation of Deben still exist? Perhaps as a vassal or ally of Zaral? Also, were there any pirates operating from Somail?

[Arioch]

Also, did Zaral win because you played them?

More like the faction I played became Zaral because I won.

In general, the Barraid were in the western part of the continent (Deben), the Tadan were in the central region running from Malia to Arran, and the Login were in the east (Nesed) and far north (and on the western continent, not pictured). Each region had its own distinct subculture, but because they were all on the same continent, there were shared elements of culture, especially when it came to warfare and diplomacy.

Does the nation of Deben still exist? Perhaps as a vassal or ally of Zaral?

Deben and Nesed are just region names, meaning West and East, respectively.

[Zorg56]

Who is guarding the emperor, Teidar or Mizol?

[Arioch]

Who is guarding the emperor, Teidar or Mizol?

Both.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Who is guarding the emperor, Teidar or Mizol?

Both.

Teidar as the Honor Guard and Mizol as the Secret Police ... ?

[Zorg56]

Who is guarding the emperor, Teidar or Mizol?

Both.

Is unit that guards the emperor part of the "army" or separate branch on its own?
Are Teidar and Mizol in task put in one unit or separate?
Loroi have some problems with overpopulation i guess, does that affect their unit sizes?
Like is their "platoon" bigger then average platoon of the TCA?

[Werra]

I modeled early Deinar history using a playthrough of Civilization IV, so I have a somewhat detailed timeline. I'll see if I can work it into something presentable.

I take it the Perrein playthrough involved Ghandi?

[Arioch]

Is unit that guards the emperor part of the "army" or separate branch on its own?
Are Teidar and Mizol in task put in one unit or separate?

They're part of a special detachment, similar to the American Secret Service. They have special uniforms.

All Loroi military units are part of the same service; the warrior castes aren't services in the traditional sense, as they don't have independent command structures; infantry and fleet units are mixed in terms of caste. (The castes do have administrative hierarchies that deal with things like training, but they're not part of the command hierarchy of field units.)

Loroi have some problems with overpopulation i guess, does that affect their unit sizes?
Like is their "platoon" bigger then average platoon of the TCA?

Unit organization is discussed some here.

Loroi don't have problems with overpopulation as long as there are reproductive controls in place.

I modeled early Deinar history using a playthrough of Civilization IV, so I have a somewhat detailed timeline. I'll see if I can work it into something presentable.

I take it the Perrein playthrough involved Ghandi?

I didn't do a Perrein playthrough. I couldn't get a decent representation of Perrein geography. (And yeah, I got the joke. )