Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[discord]

you messed with a viking(technically old norse or a few other ethnic groups, but people just bunch'em up with the raiders, outcastes and pretty much criminals of the era and geography, because they are awesome and get lots of hollywood time) woman at your own peril.

to go back to beryls reaction, i'd say equal parts outrage at such public intimacy, professional frustration that someone else is finding out things before her, and the 'that is MY human you are playing around with'(which does not necessarily involve sexual implications, just a form of ownership.)

[Arioch]

Is there even such a thing as a "viking woman?" Are there any concrete examples of Norse women who went raiding?

Samurai women were expected fight to the death to defend the home, and often favored the long bow and the naginata.

I often hear this said, but I have never seen any historical backing for it. The most famous examples (Jingu, Tomoe-Gozen, and Hojo Masasko) are semi-historical at best, but even those are very few and far between. There are plenty of examples of samurai women committing suicide, and so they did have to be brave and prepared to die, but the cases of them actually fighting were very much the exception rather than the rule, as far as I am aware.

[Absalom]

I don't know. Amazons are a pretty persistent human literary trope. It might even be a Loroi equivalent of the attraction to tomboys. They have the sort of bits that (in this case) Loroi warrior's like, but he's also got more in common with them than the usual delicate beauties the Loroi ladies would be used to.

It depended on the culture when it came to warrior women.

The Greek Amazons were suppose to be a warning to the menfolk of what happens if they let their women do what they want (something Spartans and Stoics thought was awsome).

There is a bit of overstatement in this: the "Amazons" as I understand it weren't actually the women-warriors-only group that they're often portrayed as, but there is archaeological evidence of a cultural group in the right area (east-northeast of Turkey) and the right time (around the time of Troy, near the tail-end of the Bronze age) that did feature female warriors, and at least sometimes house-husbands. They got "repurposed" by the Hellenistic Greeks, some time after the Mycenean Greeks had collapsed.

Even the Bible has it with the Prophetess Deborah and her section in the Book of Judges.

I don't recall Deborah being a warrior per-say, so much as a general of some sort.

[Catoblepas]

Aye, Female warriors were something that did occur among the Norse and the Japanese. In the case of the former, I recall hearing of a battle between Vikings and Byzantines. After the battle, the Byzantines (presumably while looting the dead) discovered that a number of the dead Viking warriors were women.

As for the latter, onna-bugeisha were fighting as recently as the Boshin War. So their existence is pretty well established.

You can individual women warriors around to some extent or another pretty much everywhere throughout history if you look hard enough. It's finding societies where such wouldn't be discouraged or prohibited is somewhat more difficult, but they do pop up. The Dahomey, Scythians, Mongols and Timurids all fielded female warriors openly to some extent, either mixed in with the male troops or in groups of all-female soldiers.

[harlequin2262]

Historically speaking, they've almost entirely been novelties or rarities rather than a military/combative mainstay.

Point is, we have plenty of stories about attractive warrior women. Maybe the Loroi have something similar kicking around the backs of their minds, even if socially it's out of left field.

[novius]

Historically speaking, they've almost entirely been novelties or rarities rather than a military/combative mainstay.

Point is, we have plenty of stories about attractive warrior women. Maybe the Loroi have something similar kicking around the backs of their minds, even if socially it's out of left field.

They're hardwired to safeguard and protect their males, especially because there are only so few of them. So I'd rather think they'd find the prospect of a male serving in a fighting position - or maybe even in any position where there are occupational hazards - rather vexing and abhorrent. And the very idea of a male doing such a job willingly or a female letting him do that job socially deviant.

Maybe they could accustom themselves to such an idea. But the oft-cited farseers are not exactly frontline positions, more like surveillance and overwatch, something that could be done from the rear. So maybe the idea of males serving in the Forces becomes more bearable as they're more removed from the actual fighting. Desk jobs, yes. Logistics, yes. Surveillance and recon, maybe. But fighting? Hell, no!

[harlequin2262]

You could say the same thing about human females in the military, and yet that doesn't stop all sorts of say, sci-fi or fantasy soldier women being held up as attractive.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I don't know if any information we have about the viking era counts as "concrete." I mean, there are examples of fighting women in some of the sagas, the Byzantines wrote records of women fighting in battle along side the Kievan Rus Varangians, and there are some remains that archeologists dug up, including mitochondrial DNA evidence that suggests that women did at least sometimes travel with the men on longboat expeditions, but that's about as good as you're going to get from anything that far in the past.

Also, it is my understanding that if no one else, Nakano Takeko was not a semi-historical figure. Her action against the Imperial Army in 1868 apparently is documented by different sources at the time. And while I couldn't find an english translation or navigate japanese academic articles, according to Stephen Richard Turnbull, University of Leeds, DNA studies of remains at three archeological digs at different battle sites found that some of the combatants were women. The dig at the Battle of Senbon Matsubaru, 1580, found that of 105 bodies, 35 were female, even though there were no historical documents mentioning women at all.

[novius]

You could say the same thing about human females in the military, and yet that doesn't stop all sorts of say, sci-fi or fantasy soldier women being held up as attractive.

Actually, it had been an issue with women on the front lines - her being injured often enough triggered protective instincts in the male squadmates. Now imagine that being multiplied by minus eight, and add the fact that the sexual dimorphism between Loroi females and males is even more pronounced.

So I do think that Loroi females would rarely think of their males to be even just capable of serving in a fighting position, because they usually aren't, and the thought of a fighting male is actually alien to them, many times more so than the thought of a warrior woman would be to us humans.

I'm pretty sure for each and every Loroi it would take lots of getting used to to even begin to consider the idea to be sort of attractive.

[Catoblepas]

There are a lot of things about ancient (and not so ancient) warfare that are poorly known. I imagine that for every famous or semi-famous female warrior we do know about, a lot more died unrecorded in battle-much like their male counterparts. A lot of the time Female warriors in history have fought disguised as men or as auxiliaries.

Either way, those aren't the sort of thing that gets celebrated much.

The Loroi gender ratio is pretty heavily skewed, which means they probably wouldn't be used as auxiliaries with any major frequency I imagine, and the telepathy thing is going to make disguises much less effective I imagine. A lot of famous female warriors were pirates/outlaws or mercenaries of some sort-so perhaps male Loroi warriors might be able to exist in professions that exist outside of societal norms like that.

I imagine most male loroi warriors that existed were telekinetics though. I seem to recall hearing Arioch talking about how effective Telekenesis was in dictating what Loroi warfare looked like pre-spaceflight. stopping arrows, nullifying heavy armor and tight formations etc. Loroi Telekenetics are really strong at that sort of technology level. I imagine that any sort of telekenetic male Loroi could have a very successful career as a warrior in Medieval(and beyond) Loroi society.

So it wouldn't surprise me if the Loroi had famous and mythological male loroi warriors.

[Imbrooge]

There are a lot of things about ancient (and not so ancient) warfare that are poorly known. I imagine that for every famous or semi-famous female warrior we do know about, a lot more died unrecorded in battle-much like their male counterparts. A lot of the time Female warriors in history have fought disguised as men or as auxiliaries.

Many historically known forces comprised predominately of females rarely fought, and when they did they tended to do poorly. Women who could fight well and did so disguised as men are the exception as a rule, I know some people don't like that fact but even the world's strongest woman lost 2 out of 3 arm wrestling matches on live television, with the guy who lost being exceptionally weak and one of the other two winners being some average looking joe shmoe.

[Catoblepas]

Jill Mills can also lift a car, which I suspect that the folks she was arm wrestling could not. Technique is important and probably had a lot more of a role in her loss than people who bring this up tend to consider.

As for Women soldiers doing worse in combat, well that depends. Some peasant women who grab a threshing flail and run out the cottage to defend their homes when the chevauchée comes knocking at their village are not likely going do so well. The more rare Professional female soldiers like those that have been mentioned earlier have a record of doing pretty well.

[Imbrooge]

Lifting a car means very little, and such a comment tells me you don't really appreciate the difference between a hard laborer and someone who only lifts weights.

As for Women soldiers doing worse in combat, well that depends.

All modern military standards had to be lowered to accomodate women and all attempts at mixing genders results in sex and a whole host of legal problems and real serious problems at the frontlines like every man breaking from what they're supposed to do to protect the majority of cowering women or carrying all the woman's load when not in combat and trecking through to their next destination, and many touted as actually being good is just propaganda. Only a small pool of those women are good soldiers and they are the exception, and the exception does not define the norm otherwise they wouldn't be the exception.

[harlequin2262]

Yeesh, the 1850s called, they want their gender determinism back.

[thicket]

It's easy to interpret Beryl's reaction as one of jealousy (and that misinterpretation is, of course, a deliberate storytelling device on my part), but that's not really what's going on. Beryl is being protective; Alex is her responsibility, and he has been mistreated by other Loroi in the recent past. He doesn't understand the significance of touch-telepathy to the Loroi, nor the other nuances of his situation (which will be explained shortly).

fighter pilots are always the same?

[discord]

Arioch: just like the japanese it was mostly the 'protect the home' thing, but the difference in social expectation changes things a lot, norse mothers were the owners of the home, the ones carrying the keys, there are a few stories of what happens when you fucked with them, sometimes it was VERY bloody.

Harley: equality of opportunity does not equal equality of outcome, especially when it comes to sexual dimorphism, this is another of my pet peeves, because it is such a stupidly easy thing to disprove.

[Catoblepas]

Lifting a car means very little, and such a comment tells me you don't really appreciate the difference between a hard laborer and someone who only lifts weights.

You seemed to think that her status as a weightlifter was pretty significant when she was beaten at arm wrestling. I think you are unreasonably adverse to the idea that a woman can be physically stronger than a man.

All modern military standards had to be lowered to accomodate women

Those fitness tests have been changed how many times now?

and all attempts at mixing genders results in sex

Which male soldiers do too. With both civilians and each other.

and a whole host of legal problems and real serious problems at the frontlines like every man breaking from what they're supposed to do to protect the majority of cowering women[/quote]

That isn't even...remotely grounded in reality. I think your personal description of the modern female soldier as 'cowering women' really doesn't do you any favors if you are trying to appear impartial.

or carrying all the woman's load when not in combat and trecking through to their next destination

In the modern US military, they are expected to carry just as much as the male soldiers. Back injuries are a problem, but from what I recall, the military is working on new equipment designed to be better suited to the female physique and less likely to lead to injury.

, and many touted as actually being good is just propaganda.

This isn't something unique to female soldiers.

Only a small pool of those women are good soldiers and they are the exception, and the exception does not define the norm otherwise they wouldn't be the exception.

'small pool' being a relative term. Sure, it shrinks the more you go towards the 'elite' side of things, but the difference between the physical potential of your average man and average woman has a bit of overlap with each other and what would be considered an average soldier.

[icekatze]

hi hi

There's a hard truth that a lot of people are going to have a rude awakening about, but humans, male and female alike, are becoming obsolete. Even the nuclear bomb is about two generations past being the most terrifying doomsday weapon around, and that's just in the realm of warfare.

I suspect that if humans are still around in 100 years, all the pop culture involving space soldiers running around doing important things with future rifles is going to look as campy as the pop culture involving space knights running around doing important things with laser swords.

[NuclearIceCream]

I suspect that if humans are still around in 100 years, all the pop culture involving space soldiers running around doing important things with future rifles is going to look as campy as the pop culture involving space knights running around doing important things with laser swords.

I feel that this is only really going to be true if we can figure out better telecommunications systems that any potential enemies could not hack or jam. Because no sane military would shift to using hackable systems as their go to assets so long as people continue to be the better option.

I actually doubt that humans are going to ever be fully phased out of fighting, however you are probably right in that they are unlikely to be doing much running around or using space rifles.

[Arioch]

I suspect that if humans are still around in 100 years, all the pop culture involving space soldiers running around doing important things with future rifles is going to look as campy as the pop culture involving space knights running around doing important things with laser swords.

I feel that this is only really going to be true if we can figure out better telecommunications systems that any potential enemies could not hack or jam. Because no sane military would shift to using hackable systems as their go to assets so long as people continue to be the better option.

Automation and remote control is obviously attractive in the kind of asymmetric warfare that we're likely to face for the foreseeable future, But when you're facing an enemy whose technical capabilities rival your own, automation and remote control can be incredibly dangerous. Having humans in situ is a liability in some respects, but is a huge advantage in most others.

It's certainly true that Outsider is an adventure story rather than a prediction of the future. I think that the real humanity of 150 years from now will be very different in many aspects from the humanity of today, but in unpredictable ways; and I think that in many other ways humanity will be very much the same as it has always been. Individuals will still act according to their own interests and not some grand plan (which is what The Singularity and other such alt-human futures require).