My Theory On How Loroi Sanzai Began...

[Bamax]

I think it was a really good move on Arioch's part to have the Loroi have an origin they actually agree on more or less... even if some of the details are fuzzy.

What we know:

1. Loroi speak a single language for the most part called Trade... handed down to them from their past... possibly all the way down from their creators. If not, then I presume at the very least that Trade evolved or was developed from whatever original spoken language the Loroi spoke after being created.

2. The main form of communication is telepathy... which ALSO uses the same words taken from Trade I presume.


Therefore here are theories of mine.

1. Trade... or at least the language Trade was developed from, preexisted the Loroi themselves

2. The makers of the Loroi taught the first batch of Loroi how to speak Trade or their original spoken language.

3. This was the language that Loroi babies in the womb would "hear" telepathically.

4. Loroi telepathy is designed to mimic the physical nature of the Loroi's actual body in it's undamaged state.... and therefore replicates EXACTLY as if the individual were speaking with their real voice.... I presume? At least assuming their voice was undamaged. Meaning even the preserved ancient brain in a jar Loroi can still "speak" clearly, through telepathy since real speech is impossible for them.

5. Baby Loroi "speak" a bunch of gibberish telepathically initially until they finally start to understand and speak normally, not unlike how human babies learn audible speech.



These are theories of mine only... which Arioch may correct or may choose not to if any of this goes into spoiler territory.

Good day!

[Snoofman]

@Bamax
I think that theory checks out. Since it has been established according to Outsider lore that sanzai is not a genetic construct, but rather how the brain is configured, I am convinced that sanzai is both produced consciously and subconsciously. Since some scientists are convinced that human babies dream in the womb and can receive sensory experiences like the mother's heartbeat or being rocked, who is to say that Loroi babies in the womb don't receive telepathic imagery from their mothers? Perhaps that is how telepathy is passed on from generation to generation. Through subconscious activity.

[QuakeIV]

Would be handy if a baby could come out already having a head start on how to talk and read and so-on

[Arioch]

Telepathy is non-verbal; it doesn't use words. There is no relationship between Trade and telepathy. Telepathy is not just "mental speaking." If that were the case, then telepathy would be useless for reading the thoughts of aliens who don't speak Trade. Loroi babies do start to learn telepathy in the womb as their minds develop and they communicate unconsciously with their mothers, but they have to learn to read and write and speak language the same way we do.

It is well known where Trade came from... it was developed from the language spoken in the Soia empire (inscriptions of which are all over the Soia-era ruins).

[Bamax]

Telepathy is non-verbal; it doesn't use words. There is no relationship between Trade and telepathy. Telepathy is not just "mental speaking." If that were the case, then telepathy would be useless for reading the thoughts of aliens who don't speak Trade. Loroi babies do start to learn telepathy in the womb as their minds develop and they communicate unconsciously with their mothers, but they have to learn to read and write and speak language the same way we do.

It is well known where Trade came from... it was developed from the language spoken in the Soia empire (inscriptions of which are all over the Soia-era ruins).

Although I suspected what you said may be the case, given my human experience of using language to express myself, I cannot fathom how anyons can use telepathy to express complex subjects coherently without using any sort of language.

Even computer programming has it's own language, without it you cannot program anything

[QuakeIV]

In my defense I assumed if it can convey thoughts and ideas it could probably also do symbology and words.

[Arioch]

Even computer programming has it's own language, without it you cannot program anything

Computer code isn't the best example, since it consists of instructions to a computer rather than what linguists would call a language for communicating information. The machine code that's executed on a computer is meaningless outside of the context of that specific hardware... it doesn't even really have symbols, just instructions and addresses. But I digress...

It seems logical that telepathy has some kind of symbology and "grammar," so to speak, but this is unrelated to any particular spoken or written language, and in order for the established parameters of telepathy to work, these symbols have to be mostly universal. This implies qualities of mind that are somewhat metaphysical, and not easily explained. This is part of why the workings of telepathy mostly have to be poorly understood within the setting, as these properties defy easy explanation. This is true of almost any setting that includes telepathy, by its very nature.

Our brains are structured to process language, and so we tend to "think" in language; it's hard for us to imagine thought in any other terms. But the vast majority of Earth organisms have no language of any kind, and yet they also think, and with very similar brains to ours.

[QuakeIV]

Instructions are technically symbols in the linguistic sense. Usually its kindof opaque to a human since it tends to unroll into an excessively long sequence compared to the 'code' but its not a total abortion of a translation from one to the other, you can comprehend machine code. Its kindof limited as a language since its just a todo list but it still is one.

[Arioch]

Instructions are technically symbols in the linguistic sense. Usually its kindof opaque to a human since it tends to unroll into an excessively long sequence compared to the 'code' but its not a total abortion of a translation from one to the other, you can comprehend machine code. Its kindof limited as a language since its just a todo list but it still is one.

By that definition, the protein sequences encoded in genetic material represents a "language," since it's giving "instructions" to the organism's systems. I'm not sure that's really a meaningful definition, for our purposes, since there's no mind of any sort behind it.

[QuakeIV]

I guess that depends on what the purpose is, but yes thats absolutely a language in a technical sense and it can represent information. Nobody actually knows what exactly, obviously this is not related to protein chain encodings but for instance beavers seemingly are born knowing that they want to chop trees down and construct a dam to live in (they will do it even if born and raised in a vacuum separated from past generations of beavers) so there are probably concepts encoded into it in some cases.

e: I don't know how else they would figure out how to do that, anyhow.

[Bamax]

Even computer programming has it's own language, without it you cannot program anything

Computer code isn't the best example, since it consists of instructions to a computer rather than what linguists would call a language for communicating information. The machine code that's executed on a computer is meaningless outside of the context of that specific hardware... it doesn't even really have symbols, just instructions and addresses. But I digress...

It seems logical that telepathy has some kind of symbology and "grammar," so to speak, but this is unrelated to any particular spoken or written language, and in order for the established parameters of telepathy to work, these symbols have to be mostly universal. This implies qualities of mind that are somewhat metaphysical, and not easily explained. This is part of why the workings of telepathy mostly have to be poorly understood within the setting, as these properties defy easy explanation. This is true of almost any setting that includes telepathy, by its very nature.

Our brains are structured to process language, and so we tend to "think" in language; it's hard for us to imagine thought in any other terms. But the vast majority of Earth organisms have no language of any kind, and yet they also think, and with very similar brains to ours.

It is your story so ultimately it's up to you. Even so, if telepathy WAS language based I don't think it should stop Loroi from reading minds that do not speak trade, since telepathy is very meta to begin with, and translating what someone is thinking into your own native language naturally would seem a trivial additional ability in comparison with superhero stuff Teidar get up to.

I think to that overall... it's probably better animals don't talk, since they tend to have simplistic needs and wants in comparison to us, with little need for any lengthy elaboration of ideas. In fact on youtube therr are videos of dogs and cats pressing buttons to communicate with words, and for the most part all they ever do is request stuff or ask for stuff... animals act like homeless beggars and see us as the person handing out free treats and affection.

Good thing for them they are cute and fluffy... otherwise humans would not give them as much free stuff and attention as they do.

[QuakeIV]

No I am friends with my pets. They do get peevish if I don't feed them but also this whole contrivance of not letting them wander around in the wild was my idea in the first place so I can at least make sure they are fed. I also don't do cats because in their case I would agree with you that they dont usually like you.

[Jagged]

I cannot fathom how anyons can use telepathy to express complex subjects coherently without using any sort of language.

I believe there is a fair amount of evidence that when we think things in our heads, the words that frame the thought come last and aren't really needed at all.

[Bamax]

I cannot fathom how anyons can use telepathy to express complex subjects coherently without using any sort of language.

I believe there is a fair amount of evidence that when we think things in our heads, the words that frame the thought come last and aren't really needed at all.

I have good longterm memory and remember my days as a baby/toddler when my mom would talk on the phone saying outloud I could not understand who she was talking about (spoiler alert! If it was about me I usualky could, and if it wasabout anyobe else 9 times out if ten I could care less anyway).

We may think thoughts before words, but we are definitely wired for understanding thoughts as WORDS even BEFORE we understand it, since toddlers who speak their mother tongue definitely don't fully understand it until they take classes in school that explain it.

[Demarquis]

I cannot fathom how anyons can use telepathy to express complex subjects coherently without using any sort of language.

I believe there is a fair amount of evidence that when we think things in our heads, the words that frame the thought come last and aren't really needed at all.

Ooooh, if you have a reference you could share on that I would love to read it!

[Jagged]

Ooooh, if you have a reference you could share on that I would love to read it!

I shall try and find some. It mainly comes from very disturbing research that hints that our conscious awareness sits above our ego and kind of justifies its existence after the fact!

Not something I particularly want to believe but if you think about it, people without language function perfectly well (if primitively).

https://www.livescience.com/can-we-thin ... t-language

https://mcgovern.mit.edu/2019/05/02/ask ... -language/

[Jagged]

We may think thoughts before words, but we are definitely wired for understanding thoughts as WORDS even BEFORE we understand it, since toddlers who speak their mother tongue definitely don't fully understand it until they take classes in school that explain it.

The difficulty there is you are using words and the understanding of words to define thought. There are plenty of creatures on the planet without words who function fine without.
Humans have a large amount of brain dedicated to language, so of course we think words are important. But humans are weird
Plus, if you do any cognitive tasks (numerical, logical or spacial) that don't involve language an MRI scan will show that the language parts of your brain won't light up at all.

There are also people who think without an internal monologue, in the same way that some people are not capable of internal picturing.

[Demarquis]

Well, I am aware of research that indicates that when we decide to move our arm, the signal to do so originates outside of the pre-frontal cortex (where conscious thought takes place). The motor signal actually arrives at the arm a fraction of a second *before* we consciously think the decision to move it.

[Arioch]

Well, I am aware of research that indicates that when we decide to move our arm, the signal to do so originates outside of the pre-frontal cortex (where conscious thought takes place). The motor signal actually arrives at the arm a fraction of a second *before* we consciously think the decision to move it.

Unless you're talking about a subconscious movement like a flight response or a reflex action, that doesn't make any sense.

[Jagged]

Well, I am aware of research that indicates that when we decide to move our arm, the signal to do so originates outside of the pre-frontal cortex (where conscious thought takes place). The motor signal actually arrives at the arm a fraction of a second *before* we consciously think the decision to move it.

Unless you're talking about a subconscious movement like a flight response or a reflex action, that doesn't make any sense.

Still true though. Which is why some researchers make the (quite frankly scary) suggestion that our consciousness is just a charade that happens after the fact