Page 220: Clearing the Path

[Arioch]

Reminded me "ancient" scifi book of humans entering another moon/planet covered by ice/water. One of the scientist was attacked and being eated by alien shark. To surprise for most, especially to the sharklien, our biochemistry was so alien, that humans were actually poisonous to them and it died hours later for stomach ache, well, it did died and rise belly up.

I think this would probably be the norm rather than the exception. Carnivory is a very specific adaptation that assumes that the target organisms is made out of familiar substances that are nourishing or at least non-toxic, and there's no guarantee of that with an alien organism.

There are lots of Earth carnivores that will get sick if they eat any animal that's outside their normal prey list, much less something alien.

[raistlin34]

Reminded me "ancient" scifi book of humans entering another moon/planet covered by ice/water. One of the scientist was attacked and being eated by alien shark. To surprise for most, especially to the sharklien, our biochemistry was so alien, that humans were actually poisonous to them and it died hours later for stomach ache, well, it did died and rise belly up.

I think this would probably be the norm rather than the exception. Carnivory is a very specific adaptation that assumes that the target organisms is made out of familiar substances that are nourishing or at least non-toxic, and there's no guarantee of that with an alien organism.

There are lots of Earth carnivores that will get sick if they eat any animal that's outside their normal prey list, much less something alien.

Just like Alex could barely digest Lori's food, whatever it was?

[Jagged]

Just like Alex could barely digest Lori's food, whatever it was?

If we take Earth as a pattern, then just drinking the water from a few hundred miles from where you normally reside can be enough to make you ill (even when you just assume non-harmful bateria).

[Krulle]

In Fallen Dragon by Peter F. Hamilton this is touched upon.
(By alien insects dieing when trying to "eat" the meat of a fallen Human fighter - the protagonist sees this and the story goes on.)
It's just not a very relevant part of the story, besides the protagonist dieing anyway due to the fights, and having the additional problem of being contaminated.

Further I loved the ending of this Hamilton story, in that the Aliens are there, and right "among us".... We were just looking in the wrong direction...
Most other Hamilton stories feel like a Gordian's Knot... Far too complex to be solved in the last 100 pages, and then Hamilton pulls out the deus ex machina to solve it all and mend even more.

[avatar576]

Well, if Fireblade does not understand what is going on, in spite of the fact that she was apparently ordered to connect to him, then Alex may be more powerful than she is mentally, and could even be in control of the process, even though he isn't consciously aware of it.

I don't think that's true. If it were true, Fireblade would get quite violent, with unfortunate consequences for Alex.

I'm of a similar opinion. Teidar are supposed to be trained against telepathic intrusion/attacks, and Fireblade is among the more powerful telepaths. If she were aware of any sign of telepathic ability from him, the Loroi would have put more effort into figuring out what's going on. They would probably keep a much tighter leash on him rather than giving him pretty much unrestricted access around the shuttle. And if Fireblade perceived it as a deliberate attack or intrusion attempt, it would definitely be dangerous for Alex.

I've also noticed that each of Alex's telepathic experiences (with the exception of his direct interrogation/torture in the medbay) came when he was in some altered state of consciousness -- a meditative state, asleep, a hypnotic trance, etc. -- which apparently increases his receptivity to Loroi telepathy. And that's what I think is going on. He's just picking up the telepathic signals from the strongest telepath present. I think of it this way: if we say something aloud in a room full of people, we can't know for sure who heard it until they respond. I think sanzai works the same way. He may be beginning to "hear" them, but can't "speak" to them as yet. Sort of like a one-way radio. If he keeps quiet about it and avoids any further slips, the Loroi should be none the wiser.

[Demarquis]

Not sure if that makes sense. When Alex was experiencing the dream sequence, he was interacting with the "people" there. That sounds more participatory than merely passively receiving.

[avatar576]

Not sure if that makes sense. When Alex was experiencing the dream sequence, he was interacting with the "people" there. That sounds more participatory than merely passively receiving.

I think there are two possibilities about what's going on in that dream sequence:

1. Fireblade is known to "talk" in her sleep. Seren was/is clearly a traumatic experience for her. One possibility is that she was reliving a particular experience from the time she was on Seren. We know Fireblade had an injury to her eye at some point in the past. My first impression about the dream sequence was that the young Loroi was a young Fireblade, and the dream served to show how she was injured. I noticed that after Alex woke up, he seemed to be looking at Fireblade (although this is a bit ambiguous), which is what led me to believe it was her in the dream, and that it was, in fact, her dream that Alex was receiving.

2. Tempo is in control of the dream. This seems to be the consensus, based on what I've read in the forum and elsewhere: That Tempo is implanting these visions into Alex's mind deliberately, in order to sway his opinion in favor of the Loroi. If this is the case, it really strikes me as an odd way of persuading him, and risky, too. If Alex were to discover she was behind it, it would severely jeopardize relations. One wonders why she couldn't just ask Alex's permission to try it, the way Beryl did. On the other hand, the Loroi might just see things differently. We, as humans, would consider it an invasion of privacy, whereas the Loroi are used to communicating telepathically.

Time will tell. But in either case, it still fits the pattern of Alex having increased receptivity when not fully alert/conscious.

[Bamax]

Not sure if that makes sense. When Alex was experiencing the dream sequence, he was interacting with the "people" there. That sounds more participatory than merely passively receiving.

I think there are two possibilities about what's going on in that dream sequence:

1. Fireblade is known to "talk" in her sleep. Seren was/is clearly a traumatic experience for her. One possibility is that she was reliving a particular experience from the time she was on Seren. We know Fireblade had an injury to her eye at some point in the past. My first impression about the dream sequence was that the young Loroi was a young Fireblade, and the dream served to show how she was injured. I noticed that after Alex woke up, he seemed to be looking at Fireblade (although this is a bit ambiguous), which is what led me to believe it was her in the dream, and that it was, in fact, her dream that Alex was receiving.

2. Tempo is in control of the dream. This seems to be the consensus, based on what I've read in the forum and elsewhere: That Tempo is implanting these visions into Alex's mind deliberately, in order to sway his opinion in favor of the Loroi. If this is the case, it really strikes me as an odd way of persuading him, and risky, too. If Alex were to discover she was behind it, it would severely jeopardize relations. One wonders why she couldn't just ask Alex's permission to try it, the way Beryl did. On the other hand, the Loroi might just see things differently. We, as humans, would consider it an invasion of privacy, whereas the Loroi are used to communicating telepathically.

Time will tell. But in either case, it still fits the pattern of Alex having increased receptivity when not fully alert/conscious.

Don't forget that the Loroi as a civilization is desperate to win the war, and has and is willingly to commit essentially crimes against humanity/war crimes to that end.

By now everything is fair game... because the Loroi are on the verge of losing their stalemate and I reckon Tempo knows that.

Like Joker said... the thing about anarchy is... it's fair.

Not really... might makes right essentially... but so long you get the drop on folks before they do it to you it works... and that is all the Loroi care about at this point

[Dromond]

I think this speculation about Tempo being in control is a red herring. My speculation is, only a Teidar has telepathy powerful enough to crack the Human lotai, and it requires the Human's cooperation to get anything at all. If Alex and Fireblade were to consciously work together (hah), they might uncover something really big. While Tempo is strong, she's not Teidar strong.

[avatar576]

Don't forget that the Loroi as a civilization is desperate to win the war, and has and is willingly to commit essentially crimes against humanity/war crimes to that end.

By now everything is fair game... because the Loroi are on the verge of losing their stalemate and I reckon Tempo knows that.

Like Joker said... the thing about anarchy is... it's fair.

Not really... might makes right essentially... but so long you get the drop on folks before they do it to you it works... and that is all the Loroi care about at this point

I agree, but at this point, the last thing the Loroi need is another enemy. I am reminded a little bit of the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight" (which is easily one of the best episodes of the series). Sisko lied to the Romulans to get them to enter the war against the Dominion. If it weren't for Garak committing an even worse crime (killing the Romulan senator before he could expose the lie), things would have gone very, very badly for the Federation. The difference, however, is that the Romulans and Federation know each other, and they can reasonably predict how the other will act given a certain set of circumstances. To the Loroi, Humanity is a complete unknown.

But the Loroi do have many flaws -- their innate distrust of anyone who isn't telepathic (i.e., everyone who isn't them) and their superiority complex. Perhaps it's a little of both that led to Tempo opting for the mind trick instead of seeking to gain his trust through diplomacy. Or maybe she thought seeking forgiveness was easier than seeking permission. Time will tell, I suppose.

[Bamax]

Don't forget that the Loroi as a civilization is desperate to win the war, and has and is willingly to commit essentially crimes against humanity/war crimes to that end.

By now everything is fair game... because the Loroi are on the verge of losing their stalemate and I reckon Tempo knows that.

Like Joker said... the thing about anarchy is... it's fair.

Not really... might makes right essentially... but so long you get the drop on folks before they do it to you it works... and that is all the Loroi care about at this point

I agree, but at this point, the last thing the Loroi need is another enemy. I am reminded a little bit of the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight" (which is easily one of the best episodes of the series). Sisko lied to the Romulans to get them to enter the war against the Dominion. If it weren't for Garak committing an even worse crime (killing the Romulan senator before he could expose the lie), things would have gone very, very badly for the Federation. The difference, however, is that the Romulans and Federation know each other, and they can reasonably predict how the other will act given a certain set of circumstances. To the Loroi, Humanity is a complete unknown.

But the Loroi do have many flaws -- their innate distrust of anyone who isn't telepathic (i.e., everyone who isn't them) and their superiority complex. Perhaps it's a little of both that led to Tempo opting for the mind trick instead of seeking to gain his trust through diplomacy. Or maybe she thought seeking forgiveness was easier than seeking permission. Time will tell, I suppose.

Wartime is hardly the time to ask for permission.

[avatar576]

I think this speculation about Tempo being in control is a red herring. My speculation is, only a Teidar has telepathy powerful enough to crack the Human lotai, and it requires the Human's cooperation to get anything at all. If Alex and Fireblade were to consciously work together (hah), they might uncover something really big. While Tempo is strong, she's not Teidar strong.

Tempo vs. Fireblade is apples vs. oranges, I think. Fireblade's strength is in her psychokinetic abilities. She can crush the Umiak hardtroops like tin cans. Tempo can't do that, but she can do mind control on multiple Umiak simultaneously. There's no other way she could have left the shuttle unseen by all those Umiak. I am leaning towards Tempo being responsible for Alex's nightmare more than Fireblade, but it opens more questions about the wisdom of her methods.

[avatar576]

Wartime is hardly the time to ask for permission.

I'm just saying, if I were in Tempo's shoes, I'd play my cards differently. But I'm not Tempo, I'm not a Loroi, and I'm not in a life-or-death situation. It is all too easy sometimes to forget that the Loroi aren't blue-skinned, pointy-eared Humans. We as the readers, are as much the Outsiders as Alex.

[Bamax]

Humans are not strangers to the concepts of survival of the fittest and kill or be killed. Our civilization has evolved to make neither as important as it is in the wild without civilzation... but animals are in survival mode every day because they are not civilized nor can they be or else they would stop being animals.

My point being... Loroi I can relate to... and war is primal... so I can appreciate it's severity as well.

[Demarquis]

But there is a more fundamental problem with the "Tempo is in control" scenario (where are people discussing this, by the way?), which is, if a Loroi can exert that much control over Alex while he is unconscious, then what stopped them on board the Tempest? He was unconscious then too. The entire plot is being driven by the fact that the Loroi cannot even so much as detect Alex, let alone enter his thoughts. Tempo solving this problem single handed while off screen seems a little counter-dramatic, no?

[Dromond]

But there is a more fundamental problem with the "Tempo is in control" scenario (where are people discussing this, by the way?), which is, if a Loroi can exert that much control over Alex while he is unconscious, then what stopped them on board the Tempest? He was unconscious then too. The entire plot is being driven by the fact that the Loroi cannot even so much as detect Alex, let alone enter his thoughts. Tempo solving this problem single handed while off screen seems a little counter-dramatic, no?

Thank you for pointing this out. I totally agree with you.

[avatar576]

But there is a more fundamental problem with the "Tempo is in control" scenario (where are people discussing this, by the way?), which is, if a Loroi can exert that much control over Alex while he is unconscious, then what stopped them on board the Tempest? He was unconscious then too. The entire plot is being driven by the fact that the Loroi cannot even so much as detect Alex, let alone enter his thoughts. Tempo solving this problem single handed while off screen seems a little counter-dramatic, no?

Sometimes, when something about the comic isn't quite clear to me, I search the forum for the particular page number and read the discussion on it. It can be insightful. I don't remember which thread posited the Tempo theory, but I do remember reading it, and going back to the comic to see if it made sense.

On one of those threads, Arioch confirmed that on page 192, after Alex gets up, he is looking at Fireblade as she sleeps, which implies that he thinks the dream has something to do with her (or vice versa).

On the other hand, another point for the Tempo theory is that Alex notes how vivid the imagery of Deinar is in his mind as Tempo is describing it on page 180. This could mean that Tempo was doing some probing as she told the story.

As for why they never tried it on board the Tempest (aside from Fireblade's attempt) I suppose I'd chalk it up to, "We were kind of busy fighting the Umiak at the moment." But also, not all Loroi have identical telepathic powers. It's like any other skill. Not just any Loroi can do the things Tempo can do, in the same way that most people can't play basketball like Lebron James.

[Demarquis]

I could buy that Tempo is beginning to find ways into Alex's subconscious, but not to the extent of scripting his dreams. I think something is happening between him and Fireblade that neither one of them fully understands, and maybe Tempo knows this and is trying to learn more. But against that I can't think of any indication from either Loroi that they are aware of what's going on.

My best guess is that Alex is subconsciously entering into Fireblade's mind when they are both in a relaxed state.

[Moon Moth]

I prefer the explanation that this is some unexplained phenomenon happening between Alex and Fireblade, and that Tempo is cluing in on it. Partly, it's because it matches up with my vague overarching theory, since we know very little about the mechanics of telepathy and lotai, and none of the Loroi have any experience in dealing with whatever capabilities humans have. But also it's because I like the version of Tempo who's being almost entirely straightforward and helpful with Alex, and yet everyone distrusts her because she's a Mizol and *could* manipulate people if she wanted to.

(My personal theory is that humans in the Outsider-verse have some low-level telepathic ability, but a much higher lotai ability, possibly due to aliens abducting all the strong telepathic senders 300,000 years ago. So the upshot is that humans never learn to use telepathy on other humans, and aren't even aware it exists. Maybe some rare cases with low lotai go insane, and maybe some people figure out how to use telepathy to better work with animals. But mostly we don't know. Meanwhile, the Soia decompiled the human genome, ran it through an optimizer, and recompiled into their preferred format, and then embarked on a breeding program to increase power and decrease lotai. So what we have is the first interaction between abnormally high sending and "normal" blocking.)

It would be hard to get a straight answer, and Alex probably won't ask because of the Pocket Historian, but it would be interesting to find out whether any other Loroi on the shuttle had that dream too. If so, then Fireblade is broadcasting nightmares again, and he's simply picking that up. If not, then he's got some sort of special bond with her.

But as an alternate theory, how about if the whole Tempo/Stillstorm antagonism is exactly as it seems? Stillstorm isolated the alien from the untrustworthy Mizol, and tried to use Teidar to break into his mind. Tempo's first meeting with Alex on the bridge was also what it seemed, working around Stillstorm to get Alex recognized as a diplomat by allies, so that he couldn't be made to "disappear". But when they were stuck together on the shuttle, Tempo had the time and proximity to start attempting to penetrate Alex's lotai. And she's had some results, just maybe not quite the ones she was hoping for?

[Demarquis]

Ok, that actually makes sense. And your two theories are compatible with each other: Stillstorm, because she doesn't get along with the Empress, kept Tempo out of the interrogation, which backfired on her when they made no progress, so she kicked him off the ship (and got rid of Tempo in the bargain! Happy day for her). Now, given their proximity and time, Tempo could indeed be cluing in on whatever it is that is happening between Firestorm and Alex. I like the version where Tempo is being reasonably straightforward as well, because that fully explains her behavior without adding in any secret agendas or unnecessary complications. I don't think Tempo could be causing the dream sequences and so forth, because that would seem like too much progress in too little time. Plus, it kinds of short circuits the story arc of Alex slowly discovering what he can do. Tempo isn't the protagonist of this story, Alex is, so any solutions to the story's overall source of tension should come from him. I also don't see her as an antagonist either, although that would be quite the twist!