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How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:20 am
by dragoongfa
In page 155 the pocket historian comments that humanity 'still have a few things to learn about power off intrusion prevention'. In layman terms the pocket historian admitted that everything that happened did so when all of the human devices were cut off from power, something that (as far as I know) is completely impossible for our current technological abilities and it's obviously something beyond humanity's tech level in the comic.
However I have come across a video about the 'single event upset' phenomenon that has been repeatedly observed in terrestrial computer systems. In short a SEU happens when a highly ionized stellar radiation particle strikes a sensitive part of a computer device resulting in the uncommanded flip of a bit. What's more, the computer is otherwise completely undamaged after such an event.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaZ_RSt0KP8
Theoretically speaking it should be possible to use this phenomenon to program a computer by a pinpoint rain of ionized particles which will flip the save states of a computer's memory system. This would require a mastery of particle physics that would not only allow the Historians to send said particles in a precise location and in a precise manner across vast distances but to also receive return signals that would allow them to read the memory states of even powered off systems.
One could say that even today we have measures that allow sensitive computer systems to avoid falling victim of a SEU but this would not be a single ionized particle flipping a random bit but an orchestrated and possible instantaneous wall of particles carefully aimed to bring forth a precise result.
The only way to properly defend against such an attack would be to somehow block stellar radiation level particles in their entirety. Computer systems used in the setting are undoubtedly hardened against stellar radiation but as I mentioned already the chances of them being able to detect, how much block, a deliberate attack of such a caliber would be extremely low.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:04 am
by VladimirSlavik
Presumably the historians would target the deepest sub-systems, so the computer at large would be unable to react anyway, because it wouldn't be all powered up?
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:31 am
by dragoongfa
If it's a SEU style intrusion a modern computer wouldn't even know the difference even if it was powered up, provided that the intrusion was precise. If it wasn't precise then it would probably crash with a blue screen of death.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:38 am
by Cthulhu
I think that reading the data could be done if the Prophet's reason had a complete set of Historian hardware on board.
Also, they might be able to "write" a malware of sorts into the powered-off devices. Upon starting it, the code would try to receive additional data, reconstruct itself and then take possession of the device. From there, it can read all the available data and interact with Alex.
However, this requires electronic computers, an optronic device would be safe.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:40 pm
by Bamax
dragoongfa wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:20 am
In page 155 the pocket historian comments that humanity 'still have a few things to learn about power off intrusion prevention'. In layman terms the pocket historian admitted that everything that happened did so when all of the human devices were cut off from power, something that (as far as I know) is completely impossible for our current technological abilities and it's obviously something beyond humanity's tech level in the comic.
However I have come across a video about the 'single event upset' phenomenon that has been repeatedly observed in terrestrial computer system. In short a SEU happens when a highly ionized stellar radiation particle strikes a sensitive part of a computer device resulting in the uncommanded flip of a bit. What's more, the computer is otherwise completely undamaged after such an event.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-event_upset
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaZ_RSt0KP8
Theoretically speaking it should be possible to use this phenomenon to program a computer by a pinpoint rain of ionized particles which will flip the save states of a computer's memory system. This would require a mastery of particle physics that would not only allow the Historians to send said particles in a precise location and in a precise manner across vast distances but to also receive return signals that would allow them to read the memory states of even powered off systems.
One could say that even today we have measures that allow sensitive computer systems to avoid falling victim of a SEU but this would not be a single ionized particle flipping a random bit but an orchestrated and possible instantaneous wall of particles carefully aimed to bring forth a precise result.
The only way to properly defend against such an attack would be to somehow block stellar radiation level particles in their entirety. Computer systems used in the setting are undoubtedly hardened against stellar radiation but as I mentioned already the chances of them being able to detect, how much block, a deliberate attack of such a caliber would be extremely low.
Not a bad hypothesis... yet I always thought the interaction was more... physical, since the comic shows the Historian container click closed as if it had let something out.
It would be quite possible to send out nanobots designed especially for hacking and powering on stuff to get inside and do their thing.
Granted, your method is more covert, but I do wonder about whether the radiation involved would be hazardous or not...
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:56 pm
by Dan Wyatt
It's science!
I ain't gonna explain a thing!
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:02 pm
by SVlad
It's possible to do kind of power off intrusion even with our current tech.
Take the storage unit from device, install it in your computer and do whatever you want. It's technically power off intrusion. It can be countered by full encryption, but it's not a case of onboard devices, as they must be accessible for all crew at any moment ant can't be locked by password.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:44 pm
by dragoongfa
Bamax wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:40 pm
Granted, your method is more covert, but I do wonder about whether the radiation involved would be hazardous or not...
The 'particle' intrusion would have to be precisely directed and managed in which case any radiation would be confined within the small area that the particle beam passed through. If it was a high intensity beam then the radiation would be noticeable, however if it was a slow enough intrusion then the radiation could easily be masked as background cosmic radiation which is plentiful in space.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:40 pm
by GeoModder
dragoongfa wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:44 pm
[The 'particle' intrusion would have to be precisely directed and managed in which case any radiation would be confined within the small area that the particle beam passed through. If it was a high intensity beam then the radiation would be noticeable, however if it was a slow enough intrusion then the radiation could easily be masked as background cosmic radiation which is plentiful in space.
Modulated 'waves' from the Well of Souls...
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:46 pm
by Dan Wyatt
GeoModder wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:40 pm
dragoongfa wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:44 pm
[The 'particle' intrusion would have to be precisely directed and managed in which case any radiation would be confined within the small area that the particle beam passed through. If it was a high intensity beam then the radiation would be noticeable, however if it was a slow enough intrusion then the radiation could easily be masked as background cosmic radiation which is plentiful in space.
Modulated 'waves' from the Well of Souls...
What?
Do you have proof?
Aren't those gravity waves?
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:42 am
by Cthulhu
Dan Wyatt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:46 pm
What?
Do you have proof?
Aren't those gravity waves?
While I have no idea what Mr. GeoModder truly meant, the Well of Souls is known for gravitational disturbances.
Timeline from the
Insider pages:
SYU 833-854 wrote:Hyperspace instability caused by gravitational tides from Well of Souls stellar remnant makes jump drive unreliable.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:53 am
by Zarya
I always learn a lot from this forum and like to get back to Dragoon's original post and the reply on it by sVlad.
If the solid state memory of a tablet can be manipulated by carefully changing the stored information - by controlled bitflips - it would be possible to shoehorn an instance of the Historian software in. How to prevent that? I dunno, indeed by means of encryption
and by rad-hardening all components. Encryption may be standard, just like Android / iPhones have encrypted storage, but I think our 'encryption' may be a mere nuisance at the stories' tech-level.
The recent video by Veritasium that Dragoon posted, which is about bitflips / electronics in space is fantastic BTW
(
https://youtu.be/AaZ_RSt0KP8)
The consequence of what happened to Alex' tablet:
Any computing platform at our tech-level will be 100% suspect or unreliable when the Historians are around.
(added: at the end of the video it is also suggested that 'bits' in our DNA can be flipped - I hate to think about what Historians can do with that)
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:08 pm
by SVlad
Encryption would work only if part of the key is entered by user on device boot. And, as we see, there was no such case - Alex was not surprised, that pad didn't ask him to enter the password. The key, stored in CPU chip, that is usual for modern phones, can be extracted with high tech scanners.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:35 pm
by Krin
Makes me wounder if things like a biological computer would be resistant or impervious to radiation interference like this.
Like the Alien ships from Prometheus / Alien Covenant.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:41 am
by GeoModder
Its molecules certainly wouldn't be impervious to radiance.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 am
by Demarquis
Being able to send particles in a pattern is one (very hard) thing--being able to meaningfully recode something as complex as human DNA is something else entirely.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:20 am
by dragoongfa
Demarquis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 am
Being able to send particles in a pattern is one (very hard) thing--being able to meaningfully recode something as complex as human DNA is something else entirely.
Would require an in-depth genome mapping with comprehensive understanding of the purpose that each gene serves at the very least; that is if they wanted to make their targets viable. I doubt it would take a lot of fiddling to make a 'cancer ray' for assassination purposes, just a quick zap and now the target has to survive a few dozen metastasizing cancer hotspots at the same time.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:58 pm
by gaerzi
Demarquis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 am
Being able to send particles in a pattern is one (very hard) thing--being able to meaningfully recode something as complex as human DNA is something else entirely.
It generally wouldn't be useful as a weapon. It's not like you could turn someone into a frog by changing their DNA; their body is already built. And every single cell has its own DNA after all, so to rewrite fully someone's DNA you'd have to affect every cell at once. It would be useful in the medical field, as localized edits to the DNA could be used to restore failing organs or accelerate healing. But nothing dramatic.
Re: How the Historians did it
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:48 am
by Demarquis
[Historian]: And now I can rewrite your DNA! HA HA HA HA HA!
[Zap]
[Human]: Uh, I don't feel any different.
[Historian]: You used to be lactose intolerant. Here, have some milk.