Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

[junk]

Would that even be possible? When the navy was formed were the colonies even capable of building their own warships?

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[/spoiler]
You know, I've always loved the human ships in Jupiter incident. Both the terran as well the Noah ones. INterestingly the progression is similar as between the omegas and warlock



rotating central section

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and just an example of one of the noan ones.

[Mr.Tucker]

Evening mates! After browsing this thread and with the annoying little man in the back of my head screaming at me to offer my opinion, I believe I may have a solution to the Terrans perceived inferiority. But I must know more. For instance, does the Mjolnir Canon fire charged particles or neutral particles (Insider seems to suggest particle beams are generally made up of charged particles, wrapped in ribbons and orbiting each other in order to prevent beam dissipation. Strange ideea. Love it ). If it's a charged particle beam, why not use the Mjolnir as a makeshift MagBeam system (perhaps at a lower power, longer beam duration setting)?

http://earthweb.ess.washington.edu/spac ... _final.pdf

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... nelist.php under Magbeam.

I've tried doing some napkin-edge calculations using your mas driver table. If we're only using your heavy slug, we get about 302 gigajoules per damage point. (also the table is wrong . The Hs-100 should do about 27 damage, the ms-100 should do 13 damage. Looks like they're switched). I plugged the numbers into a little equation from project rho:

4*Beam energy/beam speed*mass of slug= deltaV

If the beam travels at c, the beam energy is 14 points of damage (the high end from the particle beam table. 4228 Gigajoules) and slug mass is 200 kg, we can give the slug an extra 150km/sec. If the beam can fire continously, we can get the slug up to ferocious speeds, greatly increasing it's impact. We can make it split up in a pattern so it's probability of hitting an alien vessel is higher (higher speeds means less mass needed to do damage. Twice the speed means a quarter of the needed mass to do the same damage).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H0HPpzHpMo

Long first post. Light the pyres gentlemen .

EDIT: I've noticed someone posted a message about using laser to do something similar. While that may work, it's terribly inefficient to vaporize something with a laser (and get the vapors to actually travel fast enough to be useful ) whereas a plasma magnet/magsail slug is VERY efficient at converting beam power into kinetic energy.

[Arioch]

(also the table is wrong . The Hs-100 should do about 27 damage, the ms-100 should do 13 damage. Looks like they're switched).

That's true, the numbers were reversed. Doubling the mass of the projectile doubles the kinetic energy, but doubling the velocity quadruples it.

If a magbeam could double the velocity of a mass driver, it could quadruple the damage potential, but it wouldn't significantly improve effective range, which is the limiting factor on mass driver effectiveness. Also, it's not clear how you prevent the beam from destroying the projectile. If a plasma magnet was complete proof against damage from a charged beam, then such beams would be useless as weapons in the first place.

[Mr.Tucker]

Your replies honor me

Also, it's not clear how you prevent the beam from destroying the projectile. If a plasma magnet was complete proof against damage from a charged beam, then such beams would be useless as weapons in the first place.

True, which is why I'm pondering if the TCA could somehow decrease the intensity of the Mjolnir so that it would be as strong as possible for propulsion, without atomizing the mass driver projectile. Say allowing it to operate in 2 modes: boosting mode (a continous beam), and weapon mode.

If a magbeam could double the velocity of a mass driver, it could quadruple the damage potential, but it wouldn't significantly improve effective range, which is the limiting factor on mass driver effectiveness.

Actually, I'm thinking about how they would detect the firing. If the weapons were inside the vessel, it would take time for the heat from the weapon to reach the outer skin of the ship (by radiation, conduction and whatnot). By the time Loroi/Umiak sensors indicated that the craft was, say, 30Kelvins hotter, consistent with weapons discharge, the slug may already be well on it's way. Combined with some sort of pattern-launching submunitions (splitting the round into several projectiles) and a boosted rounds' high velocity, it makes hitting even the agile alien ships easier. I'm trying to think like a Terran tactician .

If they use radar, then one might use a plasma stealth system (say siphon an insignificant portion of the boosting beam's power to charge a thin sheath of radar absorbing plasma). Stealth material like today would not work because they're limited by how powerful the enemy radar's data processing computers are. The aliens are more advanced, therefore they have better computers to interpret the radar data (which is why the F-117 is not considered particularly stealthy by today's standards). A plasma system may work because the plasma tends to absorb a hefty chunk of radio waves (but it may not work for larger vessels due to energy constraints). And before someone mentions this, radar-absorbing plasma doesn't have to be very hot to do it''s job (plasmas ca actually be cold as hell), so it wouldn't give off a large signature by itself. The coupled electromagnetic fields from the round and the particle beam would mean very few stray electrons/protons/ions/whatever from the weapon would hit the enemy sensors (and tip them off). Of course this may not work forever
but may make an interesting plot device . The entire magbeam ideea is a brute force solution, but I'm thinking if it may have some value in a hypothetical conflict.

[pinheadh78]

Good ideas but the projectile itself would still be hotter than the background void of space so a heat sensor would be able to pick it up as it left the ship. The cold plasma would help but it would have to be a very good match to background temps.

However the combatants would clearly see the TCA ship approaching as it entered the system and approached their fleets. They would simply need to make regular random course changes at high-Gs to avoid the projectiles. If the combatant viewed the TCA ship as hostile from the beginning they could simply skewer it with long-range plasma based weaponry while actively maneuvering.

[Arioch]

I don't think stealth is an option here; firing a mass driver (or any weapon) is a very energetic event, and the projectile will likely be red-hot from the inefficiencies of whatever acceleration method you use. Even if the enemy somehow missed that event, they're certainly going to notice when you fire your accelerating particle beam. And this is all taking place at very close range; the enemy can clearly observe everything you do.

The primary factor that limits the effectiveness of a projectile weapon is space combat is time to target vs. the target's ability to change velocity. To avoid projectile weapons, ships need only regularly alter their acceleration, which would be the contemporary equivalent of zig-zagging. A 300m target that can accelerate at 30G can alter its vector by a full ship length in just 1.4 seconds; at 400 km/s, a mass driver round can travel 571 km in that time. Even if you allow for a 1 or 2 second delay for the target's reaction time and halve the target's effective acceleration (as it won't always be able to use its full acceleration to dodge, and to allow for the projectile having some minimal guidance), you're still talking about an effective range on the order of 4-5 megameters. Even if post-launch mag-beam acceleration could double that range, it's still knife-fight-inside-a-phone-booth range for the major Outsider combatants, having weapons that can strike at 300 Mm. I think a Terran commander would be much better off firing his particle beams at the enemy rather than using them trying to enhance his mass drivers.

[Absalom]

It could be useful for combat against Battlestations, but even that would require better engines.

Looking at the Atomic Rockets page, has noone really suggested an AM Solid/(Gas or Plasma) hybrid?

[Mr.Tucker]

Well after stubbornly calculating the power of a continous Mjolnir beam (4228 Gj every 4 minutes means about 17.6 Gj per second or 17.6 GW) and assuming the beam can accelerate the projectile out to about 40Mm (taken from the table) I got a final speed of about 1100Km/s, which is.... awful. Too slow, even if the projectile splits into submunitions to increase hit chance, it still takes 5 minutes to reach one light second!

I think a Terran commander would be much better off firing his particle beams at the enemy rather than using them trying to enhance his mass drivers.

Too bad they seem pretty awful in range and practicality aswell (better than railguns but not enough).

However the combatants would clearly see the TCA ship approaching as it entered the system and approached their fleets. They would simply need to make regular random course changes at high-Gs to avoid the projectiles. If the combatant viewed the TCA ship as hostile from the beginning they could simply skewer it with long-range plasma based weaponry while actively maneuvering.

I was thinking the Terran ships could lurk around the jump points in defensive formation and launch the projectiles from outside plasma-weapon range. I don't see us going on the offensive and jumping into their systems any time soon..... but all of that is moot now . The promising math has let me down .

Looking at the Atomic Rockets page, has noone really suggested an AM Solid/(Gas or Plasma) hybrid?

My understanding is that while the Terrans know about antimatter, and can probably produce antimatter in lower quantities (harvest it from the magnetosphere or create it in large and inefficient factories), we are nowhere near using it in mass like the Loroi or Umiak, so I avoided AM possibilities. Also, those engines are pretty theoretical for now, and my experience tells me only the AM:Solid may have high thrust (and even then, it's hard to say if they can reach 20-30G of acceleration). I'm not even sure if we have a practical way of storing said antimatter, even in 2160. It may be worth considering, and here are some links if you're interested :

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=19198
http://news.discovery.com/space/private ... 120523.htm

Alright, before I throw in the towel , the last two solutions I propose are NSWR-driven missiles or bomb-pumped lasers (X-ray or gamma-ray) used as specialized warheads. May not even be missiles but specialized railgun projectiles (as you don't need to strap an engine to the atomic/laser warhead in order to propel it, and is much easier to harden as projectile weight is less of an issue since the battleship propels it instead of it propelling itself). Blow it outside the range of alien ships, and try to fry them (if one light sec is their limit, then try blowing them at 1.2 or 1.1). Spam missiles (I assume such warheads would be easier to construct in mass 160 years from now; they're pretty low tech aswell) and try to give 'em hell.

NSWR (nuclear salt water rocket) would be a really desperate idea . Extreme thrust, extreme specific impulse.....and extreme danger if the fuel tanks get damaged by even a feather. Maybe some sort of self-sealing geometry and specialized catastrophe-proof design may alleviate this, but it's still risky I think. Also, since the enemy appears to have decent (Umiak) to excellent (Loroi) point defenses you'd need a good deal of them and I have trouble thinking how cheap they may be. Sure they're low tech enough for Terran industry to produce, but they're both big (I'd say about 35 tonnes for minimum sized missile) and use uranium as fuel, so they might be expensive. Hard to tell, but worth considering perhaps.

[Arioch]

Alright, before I throw in the towel , the last two solutions I propose are NSWR-driven missiles or bomb-pumped lasers (X-ray or gamma-ray) used as specialized warheads. May not even be missiles but specialized railgun projectiles (as you don't need to strap an engine to the atomic/laser warhead in order to propel it, and is much easier to harden as projectile weight is less of an issue since the battleship propels it instead of it propelling itself). Blow it outside the range of alien ships, and try to fry them (if one light sec is their limit, then try blowing them at 1.2 or 1.1). Spam missiles (I assume such warheads would be easier to construct in mass 160 years from now; they're pretty low tech aswell) and try to give 'em hell.

If it was possible to hit and damage at target with a bomb-pumped laser at 1.2 LS, then wouldn't the major combatants also be doing this?

It seems like you're trying to figure out how to give superior weaponry to a side with inferior technology. Unless you are willing to assume that the folks with the superior technology are somehow much stupider than the folks with the inferior technology (or you are willing to enter a realm of fantasy, like the ones in which nunchakus can defeat spears and swords), this simply isn't going to work.

[Absalom]

Looking at the Atomic Rockets page, has noone really suggested an AM Solid/(Gas or Plasma) hybrid?

My understanding is that while the Terrans know about antimatter, and can probably produce antimatter in lower quantities (harvest it from the magnetosphere or create it in large and inefficient factories), we are nowhere near using it in mass like the Loroi or Umiak, so I avoided AM possibilities.

I meant in real life. Wrapping the core of a AM Solid around the reactor chamber of an AM Gas/Plasma as a preheater seems like a straight-forward thing to consider, once you've already looked at the other two.

[Mr.Tucker]

Alright, before I throw in the towel , the last two solutions I propose are NSWR-driven missiles or bomb-pumped lasers (X-ray or gamma-ray) used as specialized warheads. May not even be missiles but specialized railgun projectiles (as you don't need to strap an engine to the atomic/laser warhead in order to propel it, and is much easier to harden as projectile weight is less of an issue since the battleship propels it instead of it propelling itself). Blow it outside the range of alien ships, and try to fry them (if one light sec is their limit, then try blowing them at 1.2 or 1.1). Spam missiles (I assume such warheads would be easier to construct in mass 160 years from now; they're pretty low tech aswell) and try to give 'em hell.

If it was possible to hit and damage at target with a bomb-pumped laser at 1.2 LS, then wouldn't the major combatants also be doing this?

It seems like you're trying to figure out how to give superior weaponry to a side with inferior technology. Unless you are willing to assume that the folks with the superior technology are somehow much stupider than the folks with the inferior technology (or you are willing to enter a realm of fantasy, like the ones in which nunchakus can defeat spears and swords), this simply isn't going to work.

I was thinking more along the lines of: "We don't have repeating Winchester rifles? Fine. We'll use repeating crossbows." I don't think the aliens have explored every technological avenue, because the development of an idea requiers that it also appear in a suitable environment and suitable time. The difference in tactics between the Umiak and Loroi (lots of armor vs average to less, longer range vs shorter range, stored fighters vs towed gunboats) seems to indicate there are different ways to achieve the same results, ways others may not consider (if the repeating crossbow had been introduced in Europe, the development of firearms would have taken longer, as they'd be less important. Or if the girandoni air rifle had been better designed and better advocated, it would have taken over 100 years for normal firearms to achieve similar results. If there had been no SDI, then there would be almost nothing on bomb-pumped lasers). There is a limit to how much one can develop a tech, but until then it's still usable.

But I don't want to be a bugger about this . Seems like the TCA is gonna have to find other ways to, you know.....avoid extinction. We'll see what rabbits they pull.

Looking at the Atomic Rockets page, has no one really suggested an AM Solid/(Gas or Plasma) hybrid?

My understanding is that while the Terrans know about antimatter, and can probably produce antimatter in lower quantities (harvest it from the magnetosphere or create it in large and inefficient factories), we are nowhere near using it in mass like the Loroi or Umiak, so I avoided AM possibilities.

I meant in real life. Wrapping the core of a AM Solid around the reactor chamber of an AM Gas/Plasma as a preheater seems like a straight-forward thing to consider, once you've already looked at the other two.

Oh, in reality. Give it another 7 decades and it may become usable if the space businesses and agencies aren't cut to hell (storage of AM is still a problem. No use talking about how the reaction chamber would look like if we can't spray it in there, or even contain it without killing ourselves). Try the real aerospace thread, and there we can discuss in more detail .

[Karst45]

If it was possible to hit and damage at target with a bomb-pumped laser at 1.2 LS, then wouldn't the major combatants also be doing this?

It seems like you're trying to figure out how to give superior weaponry to a side with inferior technology. Unless you are willing to assume that the folks with the superior technology are somehow much stupider than the folks with the inferior technology (or you are willing to enter a realm of fantasy, like the ones in which nunchakus can defeat spears and swords), this simply isn't going to work.

what about "The road not taken"?

[Mr.Tucker]

If it was possible to hit and damage at target with a bomb-pumped laser at 1.2 LS, then wouldn't the major combatants also be doing this?

It seems like you're trying to figure out how to give superior weaponry to a side with inferior technology. Unless you are willing to assume that the folks with the superior technology are somehow much stupider than the folks with the inferior technology (or you are willing to enter a realm of fantasy, like the ones in which nunchakus can defeat spears and swords), this simply isn't going to work.

what about "The road not taken"?

Indeed, something like that. I'm not trying to find ways to beat the aliens (clearly we can't), but if we're a big enough thorn, we'll have a stronger leverage in any negociations with them (otherwise, the only people they seem eager to negociate with are dead people), For that we need to pull out all the tricks since Archimedes and his mirrors .

[Karst45]

Indeed, something like that. I'm not trying to find ways to beat the aliens (clearly we can't), but if we're a big enough thorn, we'll have a stronger leverage in any negociations with them (otherwise, the only people they seem eager to negociate with are dead people), For that we need to pull out all the tricks since Archimedes and his mirrors .

we will teach those blue elf chicks how lying work!

Alex: that never happened before! i swear!

[Kvlticon]

I've lurked some time, but figured I'd get around to posting eventually. Everything here looks neat so far.

I have been reading the ground warfare article in the Insider and I've gotten quite interested in envisioning the things described. Some day I'll start a thread for concept fanart for miscellaneous topics - I'd really like to try a visualization of the Umiak hardtroops.

[bunnyboy]

Unless you are willing to assume that the folks with the superior technology are somehow much stupider than the folks with the inferior technology

As much I like clever barbarian technology, what we had in our history in many times, I agree it is very unlike that we got something that nobody else has.
If I have to guess somethink, it will be a paper clip, which will revolutionarize loroi bureaucracy and doubles the effiency of any industry.

[Arioch]

Unless you are willing to assume that the folks with the superior technology are somehow much stupider than the folks with the inferior technology

As much I like clever barbarian technology, what we had in our history in many times, I agree it is very unlike that we got something that nobody else has.

I think the issue there is the misconception that the "barbarians" had inferior technology, which was usually not true. In addition to well-known superior weapons technologies (such as the composite bow and stirrup), when researching the horse cultures of ancient Eurasia, I was surprised to find that some of the tribes were renowned for superior metallurgy and craftsmanship with seemingly unlikely things such as jewelry.

Also, in the ancient world, it was possible to have excellent metallurgy and weapons technology, but not to know or care about the wheel or arch. In high technology, however, technologies are much more closely interdependent; it's hard to go very far down one disciplinary "branch" without running into a roadblock that requires a solution from another discipline.

[fredgiblet]

Or as in the case of the Romans, win against foes with superior skills and weapons by virtue of vastly superior tactics and strategy. Technology isn't everything.

[JQBogus]

Or as in the case of the Romans, win against foes with superior skills and weapons by virtue of vastly superior tactics and strategy. Technology isn't everything.

The Romans were probably only down one tech generation at most. Humanity in this story is down 2 or 3. And it is a naval war, rather than a land one, which means tech is all that much more important.

I think the difference is more like the modern US Navy vs the Imperial Japanese Navy of 1905. Sure, if the US navy stumbles within 10,000 yards it can get hurt, but odds are pretty stacked against that happening.

[fredgiblet]

The Romans were probably only down one tech generation at most. Humanity in this story is down 2 or 3. And it is a naval war, rather than a land one, which means tech is all that much more important.

I think the difference is more like the modern US Navy vs the Imperial Japanese Navy of 1905. Sure, if the US navy stumbles within 10,000 yards it can get hurt, but odds are pretty stacked against that happening.

Oh of course, I'm not suggesting that the hairless pink apes are going to conquer the universe through their own ships, I'm just making the point that technology isn't everything. Presumably at some point Alex is going to do something important for the war effort in the story,m and it's probably not going to be related to technology or fisticuffs.