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WIP Discussion (Part 1!) 
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
And a lot of devices survived the fall, so they did not have to re-invent the wheel, and may have had "guidance" on some more sphisticateddesigns later on....

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Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:23 am
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
orion1836 wrote:
Can we just agree that the Loroi tech tree is weird and call it a day?


I am at home, and fighting off boredom. So no.

Werra wrote:
Have you heard of the Russian fox breeding program?

Werra wrote:
And it's not a massive feat to tame a wild Zebra. People with knowledge of horses do it today. You can find videos of ordinary people doing that all over youtube. There's also this book. https://archive.org/details/pointsofhor ... 9/mode/2up Starts on the bottom page. The Germans even used them for their African military.

Careful now. Foxes are a lot more manageable than a 400 kilogram animal. I can literally immobilize one with my bare hands (and be uscathed if I'm quick enough with a decent position). If I try to do that with a zebra, it's likely to take my head off with a kick. It's why early horses were smaller than even their wild cousins like the Tarpan.
All those examples are from the 19th century, when we had a body of institutionalized knowledge on breeding and genomics, and ample free manpower to devote to the process, brought on by industrialisation.Any civilisation that was still using animal power or (worse) manpower as it's primary motive force would find it impractical. Show me a medieval example of a domesticated zebra.

Also, note the difference between "tamed" and "domesticated". Domesticated implies breeding, whereas tamed animals are plucked from their environments. There are no domesticated elephants.

Werra wrote:
That sentence came out hilariously wrong. When did us humans stop living besides Zebras?

I was referring to stone age hunters. Once the horse was developed, why bother? Africa never had massive trade networks until the 17th century Arab slavers came about with their camels. The environment of Africa is very fragmented, and communities there have a slow natural rate of change. The Masai use oxen, but that is not comparable to a horse. Hell, the San basically never truly adopted bows.

Werra wrote:
Pre-farming, humans didn't toil for food much.

That...is a very idealized image of primitive life. You forget that for most of our history, we chased our prey down for hours in the sun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
Even with bows, arrows and dogs, there simply isn't time to think about genomics or trait genetics. Hell I would argue that a farmer has more time to think about advanced concepts than a hunter. Agriculture is high intensive labour, low intensive thinking, and allows for surplus production to feed people who can devote themselves to advancement (or to themselves, but that's inevitable). Dogs were not scientifically domesticated they "evolved" themselves because it was advantageous.

Also, what were we arguing about?....


Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:46 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Careful now. Foxes are a lot more manageable than a 400 kilogram animal. I can literally immobilize one with my bare hands (and be uscathed if I'm quick enough with a decent position). If I try to do that with a zebra, it's likely to take my head off with a kick. It's why early horses were smaller than even their wild cousins like the Tarpan. All those examples are from the 19th century, when we had a body of institutionalized knowledge on breeding and genomics, and ample free manpower to devote to the process, brought on by industrialisation.Any civilisation that was still using animal power or (worse) manpower as it's primary motive force would find it impractical. Show me a medieval example of a domesticated zebra.

We're tool users for a reason. And if domestication requires so much manpower and resources, how did Eurasian people do it so often?

Mr.Tucker wrote:
I was referring to stone age hunters. Once the horse was developed, why bother?
Why bother? The domesticated horse reached Black Africa only a few centuries ago. If you were a stone age man, would you rather have Zebras or no horse at all? Zebras don't have to measure up to modern horses or be easy to tame to be worth the initial effort. They just need to be better than not having them.

Mr.Tucker wrote:
That...is a very idealized image of primitive life. You forget that for most of our history, we chased our prey down for hours in the sun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
That's one method of hunting, in one particular environment. If these people lived in the wetlands of a river they could fish, catch fowl, collect eggs and harvest natural berries and roots. Even so, endurance hunting is very likely quite a lot more efficient, calorie wise, than farming.

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Even with bows, arrows and dogs, there simply isn't time to think about genomics or trait genetics. Hell I would argue that a farmer has more time to think about advanced concepts than a hunter. Agriculture is high intensive labour, low intensive thinking, and allows for surplus production to feed people who can devote themselves to advancement (or to themselves, but that's inevitable).
We have stopped talking about the Loroi entirely. While this discussion has been fun, getting into the details of caloric efficiency of food sources would go too far. Let's just say that there is a reason why agricultural societies always were of poorer health than hunter-gatherers. The food situation was kind of the reverse of what you claim it was. In nutrition, in diversity, in work required, in reliability. "Against the Grain" by J.C.Scott does a great job at explaining in detail.


Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:19 am
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Horses need special food grown for them for the winter, this is the reason why horses reached farms rather late in Europe,
Only cloisters had the surplus food to get that done early...

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Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:25 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
<-- takes care of horses for a living.

Horses don't really need much variety besides hay and small amounts of grain if they can't graze, especially if they aren't being worked at the time. In the modern day, the grain is usually in the form of pellets processed in a grain factory, but before the 20th century (where working horses were about to be supplanted by automobiles and farm tractors anyway), the occasional bag of oats or bran were sufficient. I suppose the hay would be special in the sense that humans can't eat it, but most livestock could eat that. If you don't know what hay is, it's just grass that has been allowed to grow, then is cut and dried for long term storage.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'rather late', though. Horse husbandry has been around since prehistoric times, and eastern Europe is in fact where it originated.


Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:06 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Incinerator wrote:
<-- takes care of horses for a living.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'rather late', though. Horse husbandry has been around since prehistoric times, and eastern Europe is in fact where it originated.


Let's just say... east of Europe, west of China, north of Persia and south of penguins :) .
But given your background: why do you think the zebra was never domesticated?

Werra wrote:
We're tool users for a reason. And if domestication requires so much manpower and resources, how did Eurasian people do it so often?

Dumb luck? Better suitability in a very particular subspecies that went extinct/domesticated in the meantime? A sudden stroke of innovative genius in some cave dweller chieftain?
Most animals we encountered we didn't domesticate. That means whatever the catalyst is, it's either very rare or requires some kind of insight and resources. And plenty of time, so it has to morph probably into some sort of community imperative. Domesticated animals are tools to non-modern peoples, domestication is a process to create them that takes time and multiple generations. Maintaining that process through thick and thin, for several generations and changes in conditions and leadership until the end result is usable on a large scale and easily is probably quite rare. See greek steam and clockwork technology, spaceflight (that changes priorities every administration), nuclear technology, etc...


Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:42 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
I have no personal experience with zebras, but an acquaintance of mine who works in the exotic animals industry tells me that a zebra can be broken just like a horse, and put under a saddle and bridle. The difference is that a zebra is more 'twitchy' (as she puts it) and prone to spook. I would guess this is because zebras have more natural predators in their native range.

In any case, that is probably why horses were preferred over zebras for domestication. Given a choice, a farmer is going to pick the calmer animal to work with.


Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:47 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Incinerator wrote:
I have no personal experience with zebras, but an acquaintance of mine who works in the exotic animals industry tells me that a zebra can be broken just like a horse, and put under a saddle and bridle. The difference is that a zebra is more 'twitchy' (as she puts it) and prone to spook. I would guess this is because zebras have more natural predators in their native range.

In any case, that is probably why horses were preferred over zebras for domestication. Given a choice, a farmer is going to pick the calmer animal to work with.

It's more likely that horses were domesticated because the people who domesticated animals weren't living in a place where zebras existed.
If they did, they'd have domesticated zebras.
If they lived in a place where both animals existed, they'd probably have domesticated the horse, but that relies on a lot of conjecture about how we believe horse-precursors acted, and that's based on the behavior of a broken and domesticated species of animal, so it could also in fact be the zebra.


Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:04 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Probably a better question: What animals were domesticated in Central and Southern Africa? The climate and social structure south the Nile Delta and Desert regions is a lot different than many of the other regions of this planet where domestication of animals seems to be more frequent. The cat, one of the later species that was domesticated, was in the Nile Delta region, but most other animals the humans domesticated were from other regions and migrated around with their humans.


Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:33 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
hehe... We have Cats!

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Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:05 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Humanity definitely has improved in the 22nd century. Two grassbots? ;)

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Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:59 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Our possession of "cat" technology clearly is a sign of a superior culture


Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:53 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
That scean could exist today, including the two lawnmower bots, they are getting cheaper nowadays so having two isn't much of a stretch. The area look rural thou, so those places apperantly still exist. Let's hope that the reason for that isn't a great plague that depopulated humanity. If that have happened then the expansion to the new colonies would be not due to overpopulation but as a mean to spread humanity out in case something horrible happens, again.


Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:58 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
GeoModder wrote:
Humanity definitely has improved in the 22nd century. Two grassbots? ;)

When I first imagined this scene as a teenager, lawnmower robots seemed more futuristic than they do today. :D

But revisiting the idea today, I expect that the lawnmower robots of the 22nd century will probably not look much different than they do today... it's a practical form. Being smaller isn't an advantage (it would just take longer), and I think something like a hovercraft lawnmower is overkill.

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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Arioch wrote:
GeoModder wrote:
Humanity definitely has improved in the 22nd century. Two grassbots? ;)

When I first imagined this scene as a teenager, lawnmower robots seemed more futuristic than they do today. :D

But revisiting the idea today, I expect that the lawnmower robots of the 22nd century will probably not look much different than they do today... it's a practical form. Being smaller isn't an advantage (it would just take longer), and I think something like a hovercraft lawnmower is overkill.


Oh, I agree. I only thought it funny there's a second 'bot on the mow. I meant material (consumption) improvement instead of design improvement.
That said, I'm used to smaller grass lots attached to properties in my region. Less available space for housing.

sunphoenix wrote:
hehe... We have Cats!


Perhaps the Insider should have a registry of the Long-eared People. :D

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Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:17 am
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Master of the Domain with servant Jardin 11.


Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:24 am
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Arioch wrote:
GeoModder wrote:
Humanity definitely has improved in the 22nd century. Two grassbots? ;)

When I first imagined this scene as a teenager, lawnmower robots seemed more futuristic than they do today. :D

But revisiting the idea today, I expect that the lawnmower robots of the 22nd century will probably not look much different than they do today... it's a practical form. Being smaller isn't an advantage (it would just take longer), and I think something like a hovercraft lawnmower is overkill.


Hovercraft lawnmowers do exist thou and have for a very long time, I saw one in my teens actually. Let's just say they are for places where regular lawnmovers do not work that well like sharp inclinations and other places where wheels would be a liability. It is usually just better to avoid to have those in your garden. Anyway your original idea of the futurism of robotic lawn movers and the fact that they are common today is what TV tropes call "zeerust" and it can be pretty jarring when viewing old episodes of Star Trek.


Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:22 am
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Sweforce wrote:
Anyway your original idea of the futurism of robotic lawn movers and the fact that they are common today is what TV tropes call "zeerust" and it can be pretty jarring when viewing old episodes of Star Trek.

It's not "zeerust" when the prediction comes true. And these are just items in the background... no one is gaping about how futuristic they are.

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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Arioch wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
Anyway your original idea of the futurism of robotic lawn movers and the fact that they are common today is what TV tropes call "zeerust" and it can be pretty jarring when viewing old episodes of Star Trek.

It's not "zeerust" when the prediction comes true. And these are just items in the background... no one is gaping about how futuristic they are.


I thought about them arriving so early but then again this is Alex as a kid and those can be fascinated by something that adult take as common. It could have inspired him as well, I do not know how advanced his skills in electronics and/or programming are.


Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:11 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Arioch wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
Anyway your original idea of the futurism of robotic lawn movers and the fact that they are common today is what TV tropes call "zeerust" and it can be pretty jarring when viewing old episodes of Star Trek.

It's not "zeerust" when the prediction comes true. And these are just items in the background... no one is gaping about how futuristic they are.


I can see Roomba making one. The Tom Selleck film runaway had agriculture robots, and that was done near enoguh to our then present, why not this?


Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:35 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
How much to reveal? How much to withhold? because it's not just the Loroi, got the spy in the tablet.

In Jardin's spacesuit, I'd be very sad I couldn't pass these sort of decisions on as "That's way above my paygrade."


Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:17 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Let's just say... east of Europe, west of China, north of Persia and south of penguins :) .


I'll allow "south of penguins" if you can prove that you are from before the 19th century and therefore meant the birds that are called, nowadays, "auks". The animals called "penguins" remain in the southern hemisphere, the Galapagos being the furthest north they go. :P


Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:03 am
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
gaerzi wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Let's just say... east of Europe, west of China, north of Persia and south of penguins :) .


I'll allow "south of penguins" if you can prove that you are from before the 19th century and therefore meant the birds that are called, nowadays, "auks". The animals called "penguins" remain in the southern hemisphere, the Galapagos being the furthest north they go. :P


Rebuilding of the world by the Antarctic dome pioneers following the Second Great Depression, World War III, and the Fortnite vs Minecraft Cataclysm relocated penguins all over the place, just to be fair.


Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:26 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
gaerzi wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Let's just say... east of Europe, west of China, north of Persia and south of penguins :) .


I'll allow "south of penguins" if you can prove that you are from before the 19th century and therefore meant the birds that are called, nowadays, "auks". The animals called "penguins" remain in the southern hemisphere, the Galapagos being the furthest north they go. :P


Let"s consider the position of penguins. If I take said position, move further south to the south pole...then continue along the same south-facing direction, I will, eventually, reach central Asia, will I not? :P


Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:10 pm
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Post Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)
Today's episode of PBS Eons seems topical.


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