WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

[fredgiblet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlestar_Pegasus

[discord]

a telescope would not work very well if it is inside of hull plating, nor would a gun, or for that matter most other forms of sensors....

and for 'exposed superstructure' at times it can be very useful for simpler repairs, so you do not have to remove shit loads of armor and other plating to get to something which needs to be on the outside, a waste extraction port comes to mind....or a cooling system.

[Absalom]

There are some exceptions, though. Hull plating (if carefully selected) could actually be used to build radar dishes. For most things horrible, sure, but once in a while there's an exception.

Cooling systems are something completely different. Depending on the technologies & distances in play, cooling systems that can't be hidden behind armor might be nothing more than an effective way to be destroyed (e.g. Attack Vector:Tactical), in which case armor is more important than repair.

[NOMAD]

ellen is BACK, yeah. I hope we find out exactily how ellen and alex ended up in Damage Control duty.

I really missed her, i review ther comic and complete forgot about her . . . so i didn't see it coming . . . (brain fart)

[javcs]

Wasn't the Galactica being stripped of many of its weapons and armor for its decommissioning and transition into a museum ship?

[Tamren]

Nice to see Ellen again.

On a side note I was looking at the Terran Cruiser and noticed it only had 4 point defence turrets. The Tempest fights battles on a whole other scale than Terran ships. But even it only has 6. The Loroi's dedicated point defence ship has 8. Given that the energy use is negligible and the turrets are self contained units. What stops them from just festooning every ship with dozens of these?

On the other side of the picture, the Umiak ships seem to lack point defence. The small ships carry one or two PD plasma cannons, but the large ships carry very few. This makes them very vulnerable to cluster attacks like those blister torpedoes.

[javcs]

Nice to see Ellen again.

On a side note I was looking at the Terran Cruiser and noticed it only had 4 point defence turrets. The Tempest fights battles on a whole other scale than Terran ships. But even it only has 6. The Loroi's dedicated point defence ship has 8. Given that the energy use is negligible and the turrets are self contained units. What stops them from just festooning every ship with dozens of these?

On the other side of the picture, the Umiak ships seem to lack point defence. The small ships carry one or two PD plasma cannons, but the large ships carry very few. This makes them very vulnerable to cluster attacks like those blister torpedoes.

The problems are the (a) power requirements are not necessarily negligible, (b) the turrets are not self-contained units, and (c) the more resources allocated to turrets means fewer resources available for other purposes.
The point defense turrets require sensor systems and computer systems in order to coordinate the fire of a single ship; add in other ships, and you need a communications system as well, to integrate the point defense of the various units for best resource usage.
Also, you need space on the hull to allow for unobstructed fields of fire for your main weapons, you need free space on the hull for sensor arrays, you need space on the hull for shield generators, you need space on the hull for escape pods and small craft launch bays, you need space on the hull for airlocks, you need space on the hull to attach docking umbilicals, you need space on the hull for maneuvering thrusters, you need space on the hull for your drives, for heat radiation, etc.
You need space on the hull for a whole lot of things rather vital to a ship's operation. And under the exterior, you need space for control runs, power lines, all the supporting systems, power generation, computers, life support, etc.


Also, what Arioch said.

[Arioch]

On a side note I was looking at the Terran Cruiser and noticed it only had 4 point defence turrets. The Tempest fights battles on a whole other scale than Terran ships. But even it only has 6. The Loroi's dedicated point defence ship has 8. Given that the energy use is negligible and the turrets are self contained units. What stops them from just festooning every ship with dozens of these?

To begin with, the ships you mention have a lot more point defense turrets than you have listed. The Terran CA has 8, Tempest has 12, and the escort cruiser has 12. Note also that many ships (particularly the escort cruiser) have medium turrets that can also be used for point defense.

As javcs mentioned, there is usually more to a gun turret below the surface of the hull than above, so they're not things you can just bolt onto the deck. However, even in cases like the modern Phalanx CIWS, Sea Sparrow or SeaRAM missiles (which ARE things you can just bolt onto the deck), most ships have only have a few of them -- even carriers, which certainly have room for more. I can think of a number of reasons for this, but the most important one is probably that the weapons systems are very expensive.

On the other side of the picture, the Umiak ships seem to lack point defence. The small ships carry one or two PD plasma cannons, but the large ships carry very few. This makes them very vulnerable to cluster attacks like those blister torpedoes.

It's true that Umiak ships have little in the way of dedicated point-defense weaponry; they use primary armament when engaging Loroi torpedoes. Some reasons for this are:

* Umiak forces usually travel in large packs and outnumber the enemy, allowing for defensive help from nearby vessels.
* If torpedo attacks are a concern, gunboats can be held in reserve to be used for point defense.
* The Loroi rarely use massed long-range torpedo attacks, but instead use them at close range as panic weapons. The Umiak have no problem losing a few ships to blisters if it means they can be at close range.
* Force protection is usually not the top Umiak concern.

[junk]

On a side note I was looking at the Terran Cruiser and noticed it only had 4 point defence turrets. The Tempest fights battles on a whole other scale than Terran ships. But even it only has 6. The Loroi's dedicated point defence ship has 8. Given that the energy use is negligible and the turrets are self contained units. What stops them from just festooning every ship with dozens of these?

To begin with, the ships you mention have a lot more point defense turrets than you have listed. The Terran CA has 8, Tempest has 12, and the escort cruiser has 12. Note also that many ships (particularly the escort cruiser) have medium turrets that can also be used for point defense.

As javcs mentioned, there is usually more to a gun turret below the surface of the hull than above, so they're not things you can just bolt onto the deck. However, even in cases like the modern Phalanx CIWS, Sea Sparrow or SeaRAM missiles (which ARE things you can just bolt onto the deck), most ships have only have a few of them -- even carriers, which certainly have room for more. I can think of a number of reasons for this, but the most important one is probably that the weapons systems are very expensive.

On the other side of the picture, the Umiak ships seem to lack point defence. The small ships carry one or two PD plasma cannons, but the large ships carry very few. This makes them very vulnerable to cluster attacks like those blister torpedoes.

It's true that Umiak ships have little in the way of dedicated point-defense weaponry; they use primary armament when engaging Loroi torpedoes. Some reasons for this are:

* Umiak forces usually travel in large packs and outnumber the enemy, allowing for defensive help from nearby vessels.
* If torpedo attacks are a concern, gunboats can be held in reserve to be used for point defense.
* The Loroi rarely use massed long-range torpedo attacks, but instead use them at close range as panic weapons. The Umiak have no problem losing a few ships to blisters if it means they can be at close range.
* Force protection is usually not the top Umiak concern.

Out of curiosity, considering just how effective blisters are, why don't the Loroi spam them essentially. Or have dedicated blister carriers.
Excessive cost? Or just goes against their combat doctrine.

Also out of curiosity, on a hypothetical scenario that human technology is on par with Loroi and Umiak, what would their combat doctrine be? For some reason I get the impression that humans would prefer to play battleship royale, trying to devastate opponents from longe range while having wolfpacks.

Though you obviously have a more concrete idea.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I think at some point in the production cycle, the Loroi have to say "With this many blisters, we could just build a whole ship instead."

In the old days of aerial dogfights, there was a saying: "Speed is life, altitude is life insurance." On a starship I might imagine a revised saying might be, "Power is life, heat management is life insurance." Even if the lens of a laser or the barrel of a blaster are small in size, the amount of energy required to fire them is pretty much directly proportional to the effectiveness of the weapon when it hits its target. No real getting around that, no matter how big or small the barrel size is.

Given the amount of power these ships put out, and the size of their radiator fins, I'm betting they have some kind of super science material that either stays solid at incredible temperatures, or a liquid/gas, that is suspended in electrical screen so that it can radiate more efficiently.

[Arioch]

Out of curiosity, considering just how effective blisters are, why don't the Loroi spam them essentially. Or have dedicated blister carriers.
Excessive cost? Or just goes against their combat doctrine.

Cost and availability. Torpedoes are expensive (and blisters even more so), and are expended quickly.

Also out of curiosity, on a hypothetical scenario that human technology is on par with Loroi and Umiak, what would their combat doctrine be? For some reason I get the impression that humans would prefer to play battleship royale, trying to devastate opponents from longe range while having wolfpacks.

There are a lot of unknowns in that hypothetical. But I think you're right that the current TCA planners seem to favor large ships.

[Trantor]

However, even in cases like the modern Phalanx CIWS, Sea Sparrow or SeaRAM missiles (which ARE things you can just bolt onto the deck), most ships have only have a few of them -- even carriers, which certainly have room for more. I can think of a number of reasons for this, but the most important one is probably that the weapons systems are very expensive.

A Phalanx CIWS block is ~6mio $ IIRC. That´d be not so much compared to the price of a carrier and definitely cheaper than losing one - IF they were the universal weapon of choice.
(but CIWS only helps against rockets, not rays, so they´re not that useful in space, see below)

...

On a side note I was looking at the Terran Cruiser and noticed it only had 4 point defence turrets. The Tempest fights battles on a whole other scale than Terran ships. But even it only has 6. The Loroi's dedicated point defence ship has 8. Given that the energy use is negligible and the turrets are self contained units. What stops them from just festooning every ship with dozens of these?

First off all: Naval tactis are obsolete in space.
No stealth, as mentioned numerous times.
3D manouvering.
But the most important difference for me is: Much higher distance. Distance, where effects like speed of light play a role (e.g. firing on a ship far away means firing on a position where that ship was when it sent out it´s light/image).
So speed/acceleration plays an important role; the quicker you can evade, the more area the enemy has to cover with their weapons, equally rays/guns and torpedos.

So there´s the competition between weapons (mass) and speed (acceleration) and that´s why you don´t want to bolt on too many systems on a ship. It´s not only the mass of the weapons itself, but you also have to calculate the supportstructure, spare parts (as there´s no pizzaservice for quick delivery in those huge distances), energy supply and so on. All this adds up pretty quick, so you better keep it simple.

[Tamren]

So to sum up everything you guys have said: Diminishing Returns. Gotcha.

You say the terran cruiser has 8 turrets. Are 4 of them hidden in the picture or are you referring to the mass drivers? I initially though the stats in the insider meant that each turret had 2 lasers on it. That's why I thought it only had 4 PD turrets.

[Arioch]

You say the terran cruiser has 8 turrets. Are 4 of them hidden in the picture or are you referring to the mass drivers? I initially though the stats in the insider meant that each turret had 2 lasers on it. That's why I thought it only had 4 PD turrets.

The Terran cruiser has 2 turrets on the top of the main fuselage, 2 underneath, and 2 under each "wing." They are not all visible in the image on page 95.

There is an existing list of all the Terran vessels and their armaments if you're curious.

[Wintermute]

Has anyone else noticed that there's some kind of image behind the Heavy Cruiser Wallpaper spread? I can't make it out because I can only see parts of it through the parts of the Heavy Cruiser .png that are transparent on my screen, but it looks like there's something there. You can see it move if you resize/scroll your browser window. It's probably nothing significant, but I feel like mentioning it anyway just to see if anyone else sees it and make sure I'm not crazy.

Link

[Count Casimir]

Has anyone else noticed that there's some kind of image behind the Heavy Cruiser Wallpaper spread? I can't make it out because I can only see parts of it through the parts of the Heavy Cruiser .png that are transparent on my screen, but it looks like there's something there. You can see it move if you resize/scroll your browser window. It's probably nothing significant, but I feel like mentioning it anyway just to see if anyone else sees it and make sure I'm not crazy.

Link

Uh...space?

I'm sure you mean something different, but I'm not seeing it.

Looking at it again made me realize (again) just how cool spaceships are. Ahhh...

[Wintermute]

Blast! Arioch changed it (maybe)!

No, I'm not talking about the obvious space background. There were parts of the picture which were clearly see-through, and behind it you could see something that (iirc) had a sky-blue background and something else of Yellow/Orange coloration if you re-sized the window/moved the image around. It was weird, but I swear to god it was there.

[Arioch]

I don't know what you're talking about, and I didn't change anything. I suspect that what you saw may have been some kind of glitch in your browser. The fact that the image is a PNG instead of a JPEG may have had something to do with it.

[Karst45]

I don't know what you're talking about, and I didn't change anything. I suspect that what you saw may have been some kind of glitch in your browser. The fact that the image is a PNG instead of a JPEG may have had something to do with it.

That what the Mizol would like you to believe, but i know better than to... *fall down after being Telepantyed*

But in all seriousness. i did look at the said image, tryed to zoom, enlarge, resize, Carbon 14 it. nothing weird seemed to appeard. on other world: Screen shot or it didnt happen!

[NOMAD]

Wintermute

if you see a little girl in black clothing, TUNR OFF THE screen

yeah I look as well and didn't see anything