Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Cthulhu]

Ah, yes, gagh! Give it to us raw and wriggling!

Anyway, let's get back on topic:

1. The weapon charts provide a measure of the torpedoes damage potential, but how many "hitpoints" do the torpedoes themselves have? Will the weak Terran point-defense laser destroy them every time it can score a hit?

2. How far away are the Humans from making an antimatter/taimat warhead for a torpedo, perhaps even without a proper reactor and drive powered by such means (and relying on a standard fusion torpedo drive for the delivery instead)?

[Tamri]

1) Judging by the tables - 1. Otherwise, the radius of point defense is generally ridiculous.

2) The people at Outsider have clearly not yet reached the possibility of industrial production of AM. In addition, such a rocket will be much more cumbersome and not necessarily more effective - after all, in its current form, the warhead of the rocket is also its reactor and engine. In your own version, the warheads based on AM are separate, which will lead to a sharp increase in mass and, accordingly, to a drop in specific thrust, what in terran missiles already not very good against the background of the main combatants.

[Cthulhu]

1. If it's indeed just one, then why are the smallest Loroi AMMs in the range of 200 kg? They could've made smaller ones especially for anti-torpedo duty, like the Umiak do, or tip them with cluster munitions.

2. I'm referring to a stopgap measure, not something that is meant to be a long-term solution.

[Tamri]

1) I meant that the conditional "hitpoint" is one.

It's just that if we look at the tables, the close-range weapons inflict sustained damage at a distance of ~ 20 Mm, AMM have an even smaller effective interception range.

If the conditional "hitpoint" is even equal to two, then the effective range of any means of countermeasures drops to 10-15 Mm, which is completely inadequate, given the speed of the missiles in the final phase of the attack.


If the question is that the conditional "damage" of AMM is equal to 10-15 units, they are kinetic projectiles, which are accelerated to tremendous speeds in the final section of the trajectory.

And according to Jim, "the ball remains the ball."

2) Well, just assembling a bomb on AM\M isn't difficult. We just make a retention container, which is turned off by a sensor signal or by command, and attaching it to the delivery vehicle is generally a matter of minutes.

Another thing is that the Terran missile in the Outsider weighs 30 tons in its loaded form, and the size of the AM\M charge itself from the weight of the torpedoes is poorly calculated, but let's assume at least a ton or two of the AM-M pair, if you leave only the strike load.

Considering the characteristics of the aforementioned missile, the difference is such itself, but let it be.

[Cthulhu]

1. The Loroi point-defense turrets have three lasers for sustained fire, so I guess that the chances are good enough even at max. ranges.

2. Assembling a container might be feasible, but how about generating enough AM/taimat to fill it? That's the question.

[Tamri]

1) Given the RoF of single gun, this is very small. Calculating the rate of fire of an individual cluster is generally a thankless task, it is completely ridiculous, by modern standards, when the RoF of missile defense weapons is measured in HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of rounds per second with comparable reaction time and accuracy.

The ROF of most ships of the 51st SG, except for the Tempes, Swift Vanguard and Rapier, is less than one, i.e. they fire less than a shot per second. Well, also and Cutlass it is one, but otherwise everything.

Reducing the effective distance of fire by five thousand km with such input is fatal.

2) Humans don't have AM production tech for industrial level.

[Bamax]

You do not need antimatter if you can fire really fast lethal rounds.


I am speaking of magnetically accelerated pellets you could easily hold in your hand.

A high rate of fire could be achieved if the accelerator is long, but it is definitely a spinal mount kind of weapon if you want high ROF.

Circular accelerators would have a lower rate a fire to prevent pellets inside from colliding.


Remember.... you have inertial dampeners.... which means ALL of our modern weapons can be upgraded by them.

A pellet does not need inertial dampeners, only the accelerator does. Once it leaves the barrel it will be on it's way at some absurd velocity much higher than it woukd normally have with magnetic power only.

All because it's inertial mass was less during acceleration so it could be fired harder and faster.


If inertial dampeners can be made small enough then normal handguns equipped with them could hit harder and have longer ranges too.

They make armor a thing of the past and not getting shot king.

[Arioch]

Unfortunately the other half of the ship profiles (the ship systems) is incomplete, so I don't have hitpoint ratings for the missile types, but it would vary a lot, especially with the Umiak. Presumably the Loroi/Umiak missiles can resist more damage than their Terran counterparts, so it might take multiple hits from Terran point defense lasers, or they may have to use their main batteries on them (especially the armored blisters/scatter packs).

Humans can make antimatter today; it's just very expensive. The shortcoming of Terran torpedoes compared to Loroi/Umiak torpedoes isn't the warhead, it's the acceleration. You don't need antimatter to seriously damage a ship; a fusion explosion will do just fine. But with a maximum acceleration of 12g, a Terran torpedo can barely catch a Loroi or Umiak cargo transport, much less a 30g warship.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Could any of those Umiak missiles be strictly "kinetic-kill" types?  A 1000 kg mass striking an object at 17,000 kph could do a lot of damage, even if it carries no explosives.

This could explain the typical zerg rush of Umiak missiles.

[Werra]

Unlikely. A small percentage of AM torpedoes gets close enough to do real damage. A kinetic torpedo would have no chance of hitting anything.
There may be a certain amount of torpedo duds per wave if those duds are cheaper and indistinguishable to the Loroi from the real ones.

[Cthulhu]

1) Given the RoF of single gun, this is very small. Calculating the rate of fire of an individual cluster is generally a thankless task, it is completely ridiculous, by modern standards, when the RoF of missile defense weapons is measured in HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of rounds per second with comparable reaction time and accuracy.

The ROF of most ships of the 51st SG, except for the Tempes, Swift Vanguard and Rapier, is less than one, i.e. they fire less than a shot per second. Well, also and Cutlass it is one, but otherwise everything.

I tried to calculate the fire density of the 51st, but since not every weapon is actually front-facing, it didn't work. Anyway, since it worked in the comic, it was effective enough.

You do not need antimatter if you can fire really fast lethal rounds.


I am speaking of magnetically accelerated pellets you could easily hold in your hand.

A high rate of fire could be achieved if the accelerator is long, but it is definitely a spinal mount kind of weapon if you want high ROF.

Really fast matter accelerators exist already, they are called blasters. No solid pellet could hope to withstand such forces after it exits the barrel, and a dampener is far too big and expensive to fit inside the bullet.

Unfortunately the other half of the ship profiles (the ship systems) is incomplete, so I don't have hitpoint ratings for the missile types, but it would vary a lot, especially with the Umiak. Presumably the Loroi/Umiak missiles can resist more damage than their Terran counterparts, so it might take multiple hits from Terran point defense lasers, or they may have to use their main batteries on them (especially the armored blisters/scatter packs).

Humans can make antimatter today; it's just very expensive. The shortcoming of Terran torpedoes compared to Loroi/Umiak torpedoes isn't the warhead, it's the acceleration. You don't need antimatter to seriously damage a ship; a fusion explosion will do just fine. But with a maximum acceleration of 12g, a Terran torpedo can barely catch a Loroi or Umiak cargo transport, much less a 30g warship.

The Loroi point-defense lasers are not that powerful either, so would those need several hits as well? On second though, since it's not fleshed out yet, let's shelve the matter for now.

Could any of those Umiak missiles be strictly "kinetic-kill" types? A 1000 kg mass striking an object at 17,000 kph could do a lot of damage, even if it carries no explosives.

This could explain the typical zerg rush of Umiak missiles.

They would still need the taimat power-plant and drive system, so it makes no sense.

Unlikely. A small percentage of AM torpedoes gets close enough to do real damage. A kinetic torpedo would have no chance of hitting anything.
There may be a certain amount of torpedo duds per wave if those duds are cheaper and indistinguishable to the Loroi from the real ones.

Again, a dud would be what, the same torpedo, but with a slightly reduced fuel load? That doesn't make any sense. A torpedo requires a reactor and a starship-class drive system, or it won't have the necessary acceleration.

[Bamax]

It's your fanfic, but a metal slug can undergo thousands of gees and remain intact.

That is IRL by the way.


Sure it may be yellow glowing tungsten on leaving the barrel but it would still be intact and wreck anything it hits.

[Tamri]

I tried to calculate the fire density of the 51st, but since not every weapon is actually front-facing, it didn't work. Anyway, since it worked in the comic, it was effective enough.

Yes, the resulting rate of fire of close-range defense will be less than the calculated one - because the rate of fire of individual clusters, and even more so for guns, is very low.

But TOTAL resistance to enemy salvo does not consist of only one close defense. As you can see from the comics, Loroi fired at missiles and gunboats with blasters, plus, along with lasers, including fighters, anti-missiles were also firing.

Of course, I did not see the model on which this particular battle was drawn by Jim, but in general, the missile defense of both the Union and the Hierarchy (especially the Hierarchy), even by modern military standards, looks like sheer slag.

But - it somehow works ...

===

The problem of ANY kinetics mentioned in the Insider is that at the specified energy, in any case, these will not be balls. At the indicated speeds and energies, any metal behaves like a liquid - i.e. the space railgun actually behaves like a cumulative projectile when hit.

Yes, it has incomparable penetrating properties in comparison with lasers or blasters based on light ions, which are here as the main weapon of the Union, while transferring a lot of energy to the target through interaction, but they are still seriously inferior in damage to plasma weapons, which are still the same most, they only transfer MUCH more energy to the target simply because of the nature of the beam.

[Cthulhu]

It's your fanfic, but a metal slug can undergo thousands of gees and remain intact.

That is IRL by the way.


Sure it may be yellow glowing tungsten on leaving the barrel but it would still be intact and wreck anything it hits.

It's not my fanfic, but the comic universe's setting, as well as real-world physical constraints. Accelerating matter to speeds high enough to be viable for space combat (at least half light-speed for the blasters) will simply crush it, but the acceleration method itself will also disintegrate matter into a particle stream.

Yes, the resulting rate of fire of close-range defense will be less than the calculated one - because the rate of fire of individual clusters, and even more so for guns, is very low.

But TOTAL resistance to enemy salvo does not consist of only one close defense. As you can see from the comics, Loroi fired at missiles and gunboats with blasters, plus, along with lasers, including fighters, anti-missiles were also firing.

Of course, I did not see the model on which this particular battle was drawn by Jim, but in general, the missile defense of both the Union and the Hierarchy (especially the Hierarchy), even by modern military standards, looks like sheer slag.

But - it somehow works ...

Yes, the fire rate needs to be much higher, but I'm not masochistic enough to calculate what it should've been.

The problem of ANY kinetics mentioned in the Insider is that at the specified energy, in any case, these will not be balls. At the indicated speeds and energies, any metal behaves like a liquid - i.e. the space railgun actually behaves like a cumulative projectile when hit.

Yes, it has incomparable penetrating properties in comparison with lasers or blasters based on light ions, which are here as the main weapon of the Union, while transferring a lot of energy to the target through interaction, but they are still seriously inferior in damage to plasma weapons, which are still the same most, they only transfer MUCH more energy to the target simply because of the nature of the beam.

Multilayered, futuristic ceramics may behave differently if hit with kinetics. Anyway, the major issue is speed, the projectiles are just too slow to hit fast-moving targets at those ranges.

[Arioch]

Could any of those Umiak missiles be strictly "kinetic-kill" types?  A 1000 kg mass striking an object at 17,000 kph could do a lot of damage, even if it carries no explosives.

This could explain the typical zerg rush of Umiak missiles.

The standard "anti-missile missiles" use a kinetic penetrator instead of a warhead, but they can also be used against enemy ships at close range, and are often carried by fighters or used as submunitions in blister torpedoes.

https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/weap ... s.html#AMM

[Keklas Rekobah]

Could it then be said that the main reason that Umiak DEWs are inferior to those of the Loroi is that the Umiak rely more heavily on their easily-replaced missile volleys?

[Bamax]

Could it then be said that the main reason that Umiak DEWs are inferior to those of the Loroi is that the Umiak rely more heavily on their easily-replaced missile volleys?

I always assumed it was because an Elder Space God-lite NOT Vorlons race (Historians) gave their weapon designs away to the Loroi.

I do not doubt the Umiak could engineer Loroi weapons, the problem is their vessels are slower and probably underpowered.

Whereas. Loroi vessels are fast and overpowered.

Fortunately slow can overwhelm fast with numbers.... that's what the shells rely on anyway.

Umiak vessels are simply not designed the way Loroi vessels are. So much so that I doubt they could copy Loroi weapons without a total redesign.

[Arioch]

Could it then be said that the main reason that Umiak DEWs are inferior to those of the Loroi is that the Umiak rely more heavily on their easily-replaced missile volleys?

If you mean the plasma focus, they aren't inferior, strictly speaking; they have shorter range but do more damage. Umiak warships are optimized for close-range combat, and they use missile volleys primarily as cover to close range with the enemy. This tactic works very well when the Umiak get into Loroi lines and threaten infrastructure and planets, but less well out in no man's land where the Loroi can simply retreat.

If anything, the Umiak are slightly ahead of the Loroi in most technology areas. They just weren't given the blueprints to more advanced versions of the plasma focus. They have had plenty of wrecked examples to study, though, and they're working on that.

[Bamax]

Could it then be said that the main reason that Umiak DEWs are inferior to those of the Loroi is that the Umiak rely more heavily on their easily-replaced missile volleys?

If you mean the plasma focus, they aren't inferior, strictly speaking; they have shorter range but do more damage. Umiak warships are optimized for close-range combat, and they use missile volleys primarily as cover to close range with the enemy. This tactic works very well when the Umiak get into Loroi lines and threaten infrastructure and planets, but less well out in no man's land where the Loroi can simply retreat.

If anything, the Umiak are slightly ahead of the Loroi in most technology areas. They just weren't given the blueprints to more advanced versions of the plasma focus. They have had plenty of wrecked examples to study, though, and they're working on that.

Not trying to annoy you but unless every Umiak missile is shielded from radiation... a real world counter to them would be nuclear EM pulse.


Loroi may even be crafty enough to engneer a radiation em pulse beam that disables missiles without blowing them up.

Then after winning a battle, load up thw umiak missiles and take them back to base for study and or reengineering.

[Tamri]

The rockets of the Hierarchy are loaded with antimatter. "Disabling" will lead to their detonation, since first of all, the antimatter containment system will fail.