Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Cthulhu]

But that's exactly what our species has been doing since forever. We do retain information across the lifespan of our nervous cells by passing the knowledge on to the next generation. That we can cup our hands to drink comfortably from a stream is likely an extremely old example of such knowledge.

Our system of retaining memories is not perfect and those errors will accumulate to significant problems. You see, something like cupping our hands can be re-invented on the spot, but more complex memories will be forgotten or, even worse, distorted. I've also studied history, and said distortion is a particularly troublesome issue for eyewitnesses, for example.
Finally, the brain may have an upper limit to storage capacity, extending it could create a whole new set of problems. An "astral backup" may be more reliable and less troublesome.

The body just needs to restore brain cells as they fail due to age. Perfect memory is not a requirement for eternal youth.

It's not a requirement, but it's one of the few advantages to outweigh the demerits, like disabling evolution or the issues with overpopulation. I doubt that the Soia would care about vanity, but prefer practical gains instead.

[Dan Wyatt]

A Blue Smeagol???

Probably a blue God-Emperor of Mankind on the Golden Throne, withered limbs, empty eye-sockets, and a few gorillion tubes sticking out of every part of a half-decayed body and everything.

SpoilerShow

It certainly is my fetish

I see yer a nobz of kultur as well as I !!!

[Dan Wyatt]

It may be safe to assume that the Loroi equivalent of a "Zombie" might apply to the senzai-driven takeover of another being's thoughts and actions ... like a certain Mizol did recently ...

Good point, this also might explain why the swamp-witches have such a bad image among the other Loroi. Although I doubt that those techniques are exclusive to the Mizol.

It might be only exclusive to Perein Mizols.
It certainly adds to the mystery.

[Dan Wyatt]

Past about 400, the telomeres are exhausted and they body's systems start to break down; a Loroi can be kept alive past this point with increasingly invasive ultra-tech medicine, but she certainly won't grow any further.

There are ways around telomere exhaustion or alternatively, lifeforms that don't seem to suffer from it naturally. The question is, why wouldn't the Soia implement any of those?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)

There's a large difference between an asexual clonal plant organism and an endothermic sapient animal.
Loroi are not orks from 40K.
You can bring the example of Greenland sharks, perhaps these are similar to the pol.
The Loroi might be a chimeric organism born from the pol and archaic humans. The pols might be highly psychic in nature.

[Cthulhu]

It might be only exclusive to Perein Mizols.
It certainly adds to the mystery.

Even if it were, I doubt thait it stayed that way. New caste members are recruited from all worlds. But yes, this technique would certainly fit, especially given the poisonous nature of Perreins biosphere.

A Blue Smeagol???

Probably a blue God-Emperor of Mankind on the Golden Throne, withered limbs, empty eye-sockets, and a few gorillion tubes sticking out of every part of a half-decayed body and everything.

SpoilerShow

It certainly is my fetish

I see yer a nobz of kultur as well as I !!!

[Dan Wyatt]

It's also worth nothing that the organism you linked is a bit of a cheating in the fashion of Theseus' ship - it's not a single extremely old organism, it's a colony of interlinked clones, in which old individual organisms continuoisly keep dying off and being replaced by younger clones.

Yes, it's highly unlikely that something similar can be done with a central nervous system. Or at least if you wish to preserve memories. However, if telepathy is not an "emergent property of the mind", but its reversal, a limited link to an extradimensional "soul", then the personalty may be stored there, if the link is upgraded. The body is then merely a vessel, an avatar meant to act in this dimension.

But that's a level of super-science the Soia would've reserved for themselves. Or maybe they did, and instead of destroying themselves, they merely "ascended". But before that, they tried to get rid of their toys for whatever reason or maybe a faction disagreed with this transcendence, started a civil war and lost.

If we're bringing in the Warp, the Soia may have been extradimensional entities, coming to this dimension within massive starships and Proto-Loroi psychic hosts, acting as Queens and kings.
See Yu'vath from 40K lores.
The mythical well of souls might be their dimensional Gate.

[Werra]

But that's exactly what our species has been doing since forever. We do retain information across the lifespan of our nervous cells by passing the knowledge on to the next generation. That we can cup our hands to drink comfortably from a stream is likely an extremely old example of such knowledge.

Our system of retaining memories is not perfect and those errors will accumulate to significant problems. You see, something like cupping our hands can be re-invented on the spot, but more complex memories will be forgotten or, even worse, distorted. I've also studied history, and said distortion is a particularly troublesome issue for eyewitnesses, for example.
Finally, the brain may have an upper limit to storage capacity, extending it could create a whole new set of problems. An "astral backup" may be more reliable and less troublesome.

I fail to see why ageless organisms would need to have perfect memory or why errors would accumulate in any significance. Brain cells that die off would need to get replaced in a continuous process. Like any other tissue. It's not like you'll lose all brain cells responsible for remembering how to whipe your butt at once. You'll lose a couple, but the brain can still do the task and makes new connections.

There's a large difference between an asexual clonal plant organism and an endothermic sapient animal.

I know. There is no law of nature that says stem cells have to shut down after a while. It just evolved this way because, well, evolution is a bitch and frontloading fertile years generally beats longer lifespans as an ageless organism can still die from wounds, starvation or disease.
Pando is just proof that an organism can remain youthful indefinitely by replacing it's parts.

[Cthulhu]

If we're bringing in the Warp, the Soia may have been extradimensional entities, coming to this dimension within massive starships and Proto-Loroi psychic hosts, acting as Queens and kings.
See Yu'vath from 40K lores.
The mythical well of souls might be their dimensional Gate.

Well, the Barsam religion is actually somewhat close to that, except that the Gods are the Gatherers who were exerting their influence through the Well of Souls. The Soia were merely their agents, who failed in their tasks and were punished.

I fail to see why ageless organisms would need to have perfect memory or why errors would accumulate in any significance. Brain cells that die off would need to get replaced in a continuous process. Like any other tissue. It's not like you'll lose all brain cells responsible for remembering how to whipe your butt at once. You'll lose a couple, but the brain can still do the task and makes new connections.

Our brain is a storage medium as well as its data processor at the same time. This is imperfect, because the stored data is being constantly altered, and our memory is a very fluctuating thing. You may forget why you have walked into a room or how you met your childhood friend.

We do not have any checks on how the cells that store memories pass their information on, because it is stored in the interlinking of those cells. Losing data is normal, but it is insignificant in the scope of what is required for everyday use since it is constantly renewed. For an ageless being, however, its biggest advantage would be remembering information from any point in its long life. This would be obviously something complex, not basic tasks. But if that information becomes inaccurate, it is actually a demerit, since it may confuse the mind or lead to false conclusions. It can even be observed for old people, who may stubbornly cling to what they consider right, even if that is obsolete or if they remember it wrong.

As I said, I've studied history and the alteration of memories is known as a significant problem for anyone trying to interview eyewitnesses. The longer ago something happened, the less accurate the memories become, as they are distorted by newer, subjective thoughts and reflections. Thus, written accounts of events even a couple of decades ago are often preferred over such direct information. Now imagine an eternity of such errors piling up? Maybe a fresh perspective of a new generation is preferable then?

[Werra]

For an ageless being, its biggest advantage would be remembering information from any point in its long life. This would be obviously something complex, not basic tasks. However, if that information becomes inaccurate, it is actually a demerit, since it may confuse the mind or lead to false conclusions.

Except an ageless being would have skills that they constantly used. Those would be kept up to date. Their job skills for example.They won't suddenly become bad at those just because they misremember something from centuries ago. What works would be constantly reinforced in their memory by them using those skills regularly.

It can even be observed for old people, who may stubbornly cling to what they consider right, even if that is obsolete or if they remember it wrong.

That's just old peoples brains being old. That issue would be markedly decreased in ageless beings.

[Cthulhu]

Except an ageless being would have skills that they constantly used. Those would be kept up to date. Their job skills for example.They won't suddenly become bad at those just because they misremember something from centuries ago. What works would be constantly reinforced in their memory by them using those skills regularly.

While this is true, it merely produces very skilled workers in a certain field. But how far can you improve your skills over a couple of millennia? Someone with a lifespan of 400 or even 1000 years may be enough for the task. Besides, once they perfect their craft, what's there to aspire to? Such a master will either become bored and move on to something else, or regress to a machine-like repetitive state of mind.

That's just old peoples brains being old. That issue would be markedly decreased in ageless beings.

It's not just being old. Once you think that you mastered a craft, you will become entrenched in your way of doing it. It may be very difficult to step aside and look at everything from another perspective, or to invent something new and different. That's the job of a young generation, to question the old ways and to come up with new ones as the old generation passes those skills on and makes way for the new. But with ageless beings, procreation will be too limited and there won't be a need to replace the existing specialists.

The only advantage of an ageless being would be having a vast multitude of skills, experiences and memories if it can preserve them. This could set it above a mere mortal, who would be barely able to amass a tiny fraction of those, before dying and taking most of that pitiful amount to its grave.

The Loroi are a well-thought-out compromise on that front. They live long enough to amass a modest fortune of knowledge, but have the telepathic ability to pass that onto a new generation, which may interpret it anew.

[Werra]

While this is true, it merely produces very skilled workers in a certain field. But how far can you improve your skills over a couple of millennia? Someone with a lifespan of 400 or even 1000 years may be enough for the task. Besides, once they perfect their craft, what's there to aspire to? Such a master will either become bored and move on to something else, or regress to a machine-like repetitive state of mind.

Nothing stops these people from having interests, hobbies and social connections outside of their work. They also wouldn't be limited to one field, if their field is such that it is limiting to them. They could either apply their skills to something new, such as an academic switching his focus from biology to geology. Or they could find a new field to work in. It's totally feasible for those who remain at peak physical performance indefinitely.

It's not just being old. Once you think that you mastered a craft, you will become entrenched in your way of doing it. It may be very difficult to step aside and look at everything from another perspective, or to invent something new and different. That's the job of a young generation, to question the old ways and to come up with new ones as the old generation passes those skills on and makes way for the new. But with ageless beings, procreation will be too limited and there won't be a need to replace the existing specialists.

What you are describing are the effects of the inverse relationship between fluid intelligence and age. Ageless beings wouldn't suffer a decrease in their learning ability with age. This would severely lessen the need to replace them with fresh, unspend bodies.

The only advantage of an ageless being would be having a vast multitude of skills, experiences and memories if it can preserve them.

What if these ageless beings are the likes of Goethe, Marc Aurel or Wu Zetian?

I didn't bring up this topic to talk about whether it's possible to achieve eternal youth. That's not a question, life constantly refreshes itself all around us. What I do want to discuss is, what are the reasons the Soia didn't give this to the species they created?

[Cthulhu]

Nothing stops these people from having interests, hobbies and social connections outside of their work. They also wouldn't be limited to one field, if their field is such that it is limiting to them. They could either apply their skills to something new, such as an academic switching his focus from biology to geology. Or they could find a new field to work in. It's totally feasible for those who remain at peak physical performance indefinitely.

Once they switch a couple of times, they will forget the intricacies of a field they studied centuries ago. They need to remember all the things they learned in detail in order to apply them across several fields. Or have superhuman intellect to pursue several things at once.

What you are describing are the effects of the inverse relationship between fluid intelligence and age. Ageless beings wouldn't suffer a decrease in their learning ability with age. This would severely lessen the need to replace them with fresh, unspend bodies.

While they won't suffer in a physical sense, it won't work in a psychical one. This would require a completely different mindset and superior mental abilities. Imagine having the strength of character to question your own mastery in great detail and succeed by coming up with a new perspective?

What if these ageless beings are the likes of Goethe, Marc Aurel or Wu Zetian?

Then what about all the more mundane people? You'd have to cull them all according to some quite horrifying principles. Otherwise, who decides which person should be given the elixir of eternal life?

I didn't bring up this topic to talk about whether it's possible to achieve eternal youth. That's not a question, life constantly refreshes itself all around us. What I do want to discuss is, what are the reasons the Soia didn't give this to the species they created?

Well, it depends on why they created them or whether they were the true Soia (as the Loroi claim for themselves) or merely some sort of bio-tools.

As tools:
1. If they were tools, why should they give them so much power? Besides, even mortal Loroi experience explosive growth, imagine if they were to be immortal. That would require too much micromanagement.
2. They may have tried, and it failed, at least on the scale of a tool. Perhaps it is impossible or impractical on such a scale.
3. It was intentional, as I said, they may have seen this as a good compromise between renewal and longevity.
4. Why put so much effort in a tool if a simpler one is good enough? Just improve them a bit over their templates and that's it.

As full members:
1. Perhaps it is impossible to create an immortal being that is actually better than a long-lived one. Memory leaks, personality breakdowns, world-weariness, maybe a biological mind is simply unable to face eternity?
2. This was merely a step on the path to transcendence, and putting too much effort into limited immortality would be futile.
3. It may have been against their morals, religion or philosophy.
4. It was attempted, but their Empire was destroyed (or it self-destructed) before they succeed.

[MBehave]

Can the Loroi have a negative/positive effects when in massive populations due to their abilities?
From if they all "think" something if it can happen good/bad due to latent seepage to Warhammer40k level can effect jump points or even create creatures(demons)?

[Cthulhu]

Can the Loroi have a negative/positive effects when in massive populations due to their abilities?
From if they all "think" something if it can happen good/bad due to latent seepage to Warhammer40k level can effect jump points or even create creatures(demons)?

HERESY!Show

Yeah, this is not Warhammer, so no. Otherwise, they would've created a mix of Khorne and Tzeench long ago.

[MBehave]

Actually if using 40k as an example, the Loroi population is no where near large enough to create Chaos gods yet...
It was only when the Elves and Humans populated large part of the entire galaxy and had populations in the quadrillions that it became a problem.
I also didn't think it would be 40k, but there being some effects seems plausible.

Can the Loroi have a negative/positive effects when in massive populations due to their abilities?
From if they all "think" something if it can happen good/bad due to latent seepage to Warhammer40k level can effect jump points or even create creatures(demons)?

HERESY!Show

Yeah, this is not Warhammer, so no. Otherwise, they would've created a mix of Khorne and Tzeench long ago.

[Cthulhu]

Actually if using 40k as an example, the Loroi population is no where near large enough to create Chaos gods yet...
It was only when the Elves and Humans populated large part of the entire galaxy and had populations in the quadrillions that it became a problem.
I also didn't think it would be 40k, but there being some effects seems plausible.

The Chaos gods were born quite early in the history of Mankind and besides, they feed upon the emotions of all sentients. Thus, we can't quantify the amount of spiritual influence their emergence required anyway.

This comic is a distinct universe which is mostly inspired by Master of Orion, Star Control and old-school anime like Space Battleship Yamato. I would detest the very idea of any significant WH40 influence in there, because it would break the established lore and its very essence. Let's keep it in the "Space Amazon" archetype, instead of warhammering it into the grimdark abyss.
Besides, since GW kind of killed the fan-art community, let's not go there on principle.

[inxsi]

The section on Perrein in the Insider mentions: "Many telepathic technique schools are still based here, as is the Mizol academy."

Are there any other Mizol academies on other planets? Or do all mizol candidates have to go to Perrein? If there are academy's on other worlds, do Perrein mizol look down on mizol trained elsewhere?

Is there any other information on the telepathic technique schools mentioned here? I'm not sure how they fit into the training of a mizol.

[Arioch]

Are there any other Mizol academies on other planets? Or do all mizol candidates have to go to Perrein? If there are academy's on other worlds, do Perrein mizol look down on mizol trained elsewhere?

Is there any other information on the telepathic technique schools mentioned here? I'm not sure how they fit into the training of a mizol.

The Mizol and Teidar academies are a bit like the US military academies; there is some prestige to graduating from West Point or Annapolis, but the majority of Army and Navy officers are trained in ROTC programs in regular colleges. So a Loroi doesn't have to attend the Mizol academy to become a Mizol; there are many other qualified academies, including on Perrein. Most notably there is a prestigious training center for Mizol on Deinar, which is where Greywind would have trained.

There are a number of different schools on Perrein for a variety of telepathic techniques, this includes various specialties for Mizol, Teidar, Nedatan and other castes and orders, but also specialties within castes. The various Perrein city-states had local "schools" with different techniques and training methods (like the various schools for different martials arts styles). These specialized schools can do normal "undergraduate" training for baseline Mizol, but you can also go there for "postgraduate" training in specific techniques.

[GeoModder]

Is it possible for a Loroi with the telepathic ability to attain techniques by herself? Or are those techniques that make a Teidar or Mizol 'top of her caste' only to be discovered/trained by specialized academies?

[Arioch]

Is it possible for a Loroi with the telepathic ability to attain techniques by herself? Or are those techniques that make a Teidar or Mizol 'top of her caste' only to be discovered/trained by specialized academies?

Loroi can learn techniques on their own (somebody had to be first to use any given technique), but it's a large advantage to utilize the many centuries of learning by your ancestors.