Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Hālian]

Arioch: The Insider index does not properly show the “Loroi Warrior Castes: Rank Structure” update date of June 28th. You may wish to check and see whether there are any other such discrepancies.

Also, why does a promotion from Torrai Sorimi to Torret entail a jump from O4 to O6? and the same with Teidar Pallan > Rozerrei?

Also also, FADM is O11 and the Azerein's equivalent would be O12 AN if anything would be the President of the United States, in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief. If.

[Sweforce]

Comparing Fireblade, Stillstorm and Beryl is a crapshoot, since they're all different Castes. Compare Fireblade's armor with that of [url=http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider022.html]Mothwing and Razorthorn

The sickbay scene are excellent for what I am after. Apart from the chest piece and shoulder pads Stillstorm and her flanking guards have identical armours, ignoring color and rank insignias. Thus they largely seem to have been manufactured as the same model. Then there are those that are very dissimilar in a apperance, ignoring things like missing pieces. This is why I was thinking about an ongoing shift in models. Different casts can have the same armor, just different colours and such and miss pieces other have. Then there are those wearing totally different armours (ignoring the combat armours). This is why I was thinking of two distinct different lines of armour.

Real world comparison: When WWII started some German soldiers where issued WWI leftover helmets, these are somewhat larger then the later produced models. An example of an ongoing shift of models. Rank does not really comes into it.

[Hālian]

How many tibos in a Deinar tozon?

Roughly 8,000; I don't seem to have a firm value for the length of the Deinar year.

One solon is 1.092 seconds. One tibos is 21*64*64 solon, or 93,929.472 seconds. (One nanapi is 9.271978022 digel.)

One Deinar tozon is about the same size as one Earth year, which averages 31,556,952 seconds, so it would seem to me that there should be about 400.6254 tibos in one Deinar tozon. So either that post is obsolete or my math screwed up. :s

(Also, why is the bima rarely used?)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Arioch: The Insider index does not properly show the “Loroi Warrior Castes: Rank Structure” update date of June 28th. You may wish to check and see whether there are any other such discrepancies.

Also, why does a promotion from Torrai Sorimi to Torret entail a jump from O4 to O6? and the same with Teidar Pallan > Rozerrei?

Also also, FADM is O11 and the Azerein's equivalent would be O12 AN.

I'm pretty sure that bloody Emperor's rank doesn't have a real-world equivalent in the modern-day United States Armed Forces hierarchy.
Because she's literally an emperor. Not only is she the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, she is, effectively an autocratic ruler whose word is law, and from whom, for all practical intents and purposes, all authority is derived.

The closest real-world equivalent I can think of off the top of my head would be Napoleon Bonaparte.

Comparing Fireblade, Stillstorm and Beryl is a crapshoot, since they're all different Castes. Compare Fireblade's armor with that of Mothwing and Razorthorn.

The sickbay scene are excellent for what I am after. Apart from the chest piece and shoulder pads Stillstorm and her flanking guards have identical armours, ignoring color and rank insignias. Thus they largely seem to have been manufactured as the same model. Then there are those that are very dissimilar in a apperance, ignoring things like missing pieces. This is why I was thinking about an ongoing shift in models. Different casts can have the same armor, just different colours and such and miss pieces other have. Then there are those wearing totally different armours (ignoring the combat armours). This is why I was thinking of two distinct different lines of armour.

Real world comparison: When WWII started some German soldiers where issued WWI leftover helmets, these are somewhat larger then the later produced models. An example of an ongoing shift of models. Rank does not really comes into it.

Stillstorm's armor and that of her Teidar are not even remotely identical.

Stillstorm's armor has a main band across the top of the chest, the Teidar armor has interlocking plates.
Stillstorm's armor has a much larger "sternum window" of soft material, while that of her guards is much smaller.
Stillstorm's armor has only one band of armor over her lower abdomen, the Tiedar's armor has two.
Stillstorm's codpiece is smaller, with less chunky hip-hugging bands.
Stillstorm's armor does not have the additional armored plates on the outside of her thighs.
Stillstorm's armor's neck leaves quite a bit more throat exposed.
Stillstorm's upper-arm protection has more attached plates of metal.
The greaves and bracers, however, do seem to be highly similar.

[Hālian]

Fixed.

[Suederwind]

The closest real-world equivalent I can think of off the top of my head would be Napoleon Bonaparte.

What comes to my mind would be the third Oberste Heeresleitung (OHL) under Hindenburg and Ludendorff, from late 1916 onwards. Yes, there was still an Emperor (the Kaiser), but he had no real power anymore.

When WWII started some German soldiers where issued WWI leftover helmets, these are somewhat larger then the later produced models

They were indeed wider and had a very prominent piece of ventilation cap on each side. Near the end of the war they were issued again for "Volkssturm" units.
And something completly off topic: Link
Read an article about that type of helmet a while ago and was somehow wondering if something like it was used by the Loroi in their world war on Deinar. It would have allow them to keep their long hair (and would look very creepy).

[ShadowDragon8685]

The closest real-world equivalent I can think of off the top of my head would be Napoleon Bonaparte.

What comes to my mind would be the third Oberste Heeresleitung (OHL) under Hindenburg and Ludendorff, from late 1916 onwards. Yes, there was still an Emperor (the Kaiser), but he had no real power anymore.

Yes, but the thing is - the Loroi Emperor does have power. Practically all of the power, in that the only way her any of her decisions not to be followed would be a military coup by her subordinates, because she is the absolute commander of all armed forces, and maintains a very tight state monopoly on force.

She's the overt and official ruler of the Union - in fact, not just in name - and commander of the military... And the only effective check on her power is the possibility that she might do something so out-of-line that her own subordinates attempt to assassinate her.


Holy shit. The closest equivalent is Adolf Hitler! That's a scary thought.

[Suederwind]

Holy shit. The closest equivalent is Adolf Hitler! That's a scary thought.

Scary thought, indeed. It was infact the second thing that came to my mind and is a closer fit.
Lets hope the Loroi emperor is not a megalomanic, drug addicted, evil person. But that would be an interesting plot twist, don't you think?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Holy shit. The closest equivalent is Adolf Hitler! That's a scary thought.

Scary thought, indeed. It was infact the second thing that came to my mind and is a closer fit.
Lets hope the Loroi emperor is not a megalomanic, drug addicted, evil person. But that would be an interesting plot twist, don't you think?

...

She already ordered an entire species basically exterminated.

...

[Tamri]

Scary thought, indeed. It was infact the second thing that came to my mind and is a closer fit.
Lets hope the Loroi emperor is not a megalomanic, drug addicted, evil person. But that would be an interesting plot twist, don't you think?

But it may well be blinkered, limited and conservative ass, strong enough that would keep the power, but not enough skillful / talented, that would use it effectively. And hell knows what's worse ...

[dragoongfa]

Judging from the Loroi war history Greywind is most probably a strict authoritarian. She centralized the industrial capacity of the Union by enacting the Total War economic measures necessary to combat the far stronger industrial capacity of the Hierarchy but this is exactly what the Union needed in order to survive.

However I don't think that she holds the absolute reigns like Hitler or Stalin held due to how openly politicized the Loroi are as a species, the Loroi warrior castes don't seem to tolerate people who limit their influence and as such I think that the Union political fields are perfectly encapsulated by the Byzantine analogy. In theory the Byzantine Emperors held absolute authority but in practice a lot of people held power that could rival the Emperor's if they banded together.

This is should be further compounded by the fact that Greywind ascended from the Mizol caste, the caste that all of the other castes distrust to the point of having their influential members being openly critical of the Emperor in the middle of the greatest war that the Loroi have ever fought.

In short I think that Greywind is juggling a LOT of balls at the same time and Alex is about to become one more of them.

[Krulle]

Loroi society seems to be very feudal.
The different castes have strong powers too, and I assume that no emperor will survive a decade if she tries to be megolomaniac....

heh, dragoongfa ninja'ed me...

[Tamri]

Loroi society seems to be very feudal.
The different castes have strong powers too, and I assume that no emperor will survive a decade if she tries to be megolomaniac....

heh, dragoongfa ninja'ed me...

About the feudal system it is still possible to argue - in the end, you know all degenerates, the crazy and just idiots in rule positions sat quite a considerable time in our own history?

Rather, the explanation dragoongfa looks much more logical. Yet, for what would be a complete insane remained in power how a long time, it would need a very large machine of suppression of dissent that are sure to arise. And it's demands loyalty of at least some of the population, and the preservation of this loyalty. As the saying goes: "Every crime permited is primarily of his observers".

Yet, the system, which self-regulation is possible only by means of a coup, maintaining at least a quarter of the population - it is, quite frankly, do not sample flexibility. Especially when you consider that ruling of the two out of three previous Loroi Emperors ending with two left feet forward position against their will.

[dragoongfa]

Remember that Loroi are telepaths and they cannot hide incompetence, weakness of character or plain simple stupidity from those around them, telepathy is also the reason why organized crime is practically non existent among the Loroi.

The Diadem which is the supreme military council of the Union and from whom the Emperor is both derived and elected from is practically sitting right next her at all times so an incompetent Emperor is not going to last long if she somehow got there at the first place.

My belief is that the Diadem and the Emperor are probably the most political savvy and capable Loroi alive and they are almost all relatively new members of them Diadem since most of the previous council must have been with the previous Emperor when she was killed in action. This doesn't mean that they are open to new ideas since the Loroi are almost universally hardcore traditionalists but they are bound to be more flexible than the previous council since Greywind has brought forth tangible results in regards to the war effort.

[Tamri]

Remember that Loroi are telepaths and they cannot hide incompetence, weakness of character or plain simple stupidity from those around them, telepathy is also the reason why organized crime is practically non existent among the Loroi.

The Diadem which is the supreme military council of the Union and from whom the Emperor is both derived and elected from is practically sitting right next her at all times so an incompetent Emperor is not going to last long if she somehow got there at the first place.

My belief is that the Diadem and the Emperor are probably the most political savvy and capable Loroi alive and they are almost all relatively new members of them Diadem since most of the previous council must have been with the previous Emperor when she was killed in action. This doesn't mean that they are open to new ideas since the Loroi are almost universally hardcore traditionalists but they are bound to be more flexible than the previous council since Greywind has brought forth tangible results in regards to the war effort.

Jim never said that crime in Lorai society "virtually non-existent." I believe much more in the "good hiding." Just the scale of tens of billions of even hundredths of a percent is enough skilled nonconformists - millions of people in absolute numbers.

We don't know their criteria of "normality". If they are more like Stillstorm, then we aren't very similar on the normally for our sight, especially in peacetime. Especially, if multiplied by chauvinism, militarism and imperialism. In such companies a simple radical in our eyes will look like a maniac.

Common sense is different. The main criterion for a control mechanism in my eyes is the flexibility. Other virtues are secondary, because the compensate of some "polar fox event" them has its own, very limited range. Moreover, Diadem, IIRC, elected from among the senior officers Torrai, which in itself virtually eliminates any influx of young common sense in their ranks, because Loroi, who in the future will become a member Diadem, she must elementary live up to this. Especially in times of peace, no matter how this strange. And those who still survive to this traditionalist structure of the Loroi fleet in the highly competitive hardly carry the necessary qualities. In the end, they are former Teidar, Soroin and Tennoin, while necessary, in my view, Mizol have greater needed qualities. Hit that even in the Diadem, judging by the stories - a great exception to the brink of a foul.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I think any aspirations of total authoritarian control are going to necessarily be limited by the fact that the Loroi Union is light years across, and it takes days, if not weeks for a ship to travel from one end to another. There has to be people in local sectors that can make short term decisions about things, and communication over long distances may not involve telepathy.

Telepathy is certainly going to make it harder to hide incompetence and lies, but not impossible. If the Loroi are anything like humans, an incompetent Loroi may have a whole slew of internal rationalizations for why it was someone else's fault, which they themselves would believe to be true, and would come across with telepathy that they believe it. And conversely, as is the case with humans when it legitimately is someone else's fault, I would imagine that such rationalizations could still make a scapegoat take the blame on account of their place in the social hierarchy.

The Loroi certainly don't always agree with each other, as the comic highlights repeatedly. And higher ups don't have to care what their subordinates believe.

[Tamri]

hi hi

I think any aspirations of total authoritarian control are going to necessarily be limited by the fact that the Loroi Union is light years across, and it takes days, if not weeks for a ship to travel from one end to another. There has to be people in local sectors that can make short term decisions about things, and communication over long distances may not involve telepathy.

Telepathy is certainly going to make it harder to hide incompetence and lies, but not impossible. If the Loroi are anything like humans, an incompetent Loroi may have a whole slew of internal rationalizations for why it was someone else's fault, which they themselves would believe to be true, and would come across with telepathy that they believe it. And conversely, as is the case with humans when it legitimately is someone else's fault, I would imagine that such rationalizations could still make a scapegoat take the blame on account of their place in the social hierarchy.

The Loroi certainly don't always agree with each other, as the comic highlights repeatedly. And higher ups don't have to care what their subordinates believe.

Generally speaking, if we remember about the communication problem, neither a Union, not to mention the Hierarchy, simply cannot exist IRL. For direct administration, particularly authoritarian, need cheap and reliable FTL communication, and, for such large formations it should be a general some hypercom. Otherwise, any administration simply not physically able to control such a territory in conditions when sending messages to one side takes weeks.

However, here we have the same spaceopera with space elves, so that such small things can nail up bolt.

[dragoongfa]

hi hi

I think any aspirations of total authoritarian control are going to necessarily be limited by the fact that the Loroi Union is light years across, and it takes days, if not weeks for a ship to travel from one end to another. There has to be people in local sectors that can make short term decisions about things, and communication over long distances may not involve telepathy.

Telepathy is certainly going to make it harder to hide incompetence and lies, but not impossible. If the Loroi are anything like humans, an incompetent Loroi may have a whole slew of internal rationalizations for why it was someone else's fault, which they themselves would believe to be true, and would come across with telepathy that they believe it. And conversely, as is the case with humans when it legitimately is someone else's fault, I would imagine that such rationalizations could still make a scapegoat take the blame on account of their place in the social hierarchy.

The Loroi certainly don't always agree with each other, as the comic highlights repeatedly. And higher ups don't have to care what their subordinates believe.

The problem for someone who tries to rationalize incompetense away is that she will always have political rivals who are trying to get ahead of the pack. How much can someone hide from a telepath who is actually looking for dirt to use against her rivals?

In such a situation someone who is proven to lie to themselves will actually be sidelined almost immediately for the rest of her long life.

[Arioch]

Some Loroi have one-word spoken names; Beryl, Tempo, Talon, Spiral, etc. Some have two-word spoken names that are concatenated into one word, like Ashrain, Redriver, and Stillstorm. And at least one has a two-word non-concatenated name, that being Rune Laurel.
(Fireblade is kind of a wildcard, since "Fire" and "Blade" are their own words, but her name is the singular word for "Blade-of-fire" in the Lexicon.)

I'm presuming this is probably partly due at least to the culture they were raised in. (Am I wrong about that?) But anyway, my question:

If you were vocally communicating with a Loroi who had a two-word name that did not concatenate, like Rune Laurel, and you achieved some degree of comfortable familiarity with them, would you abbreviate their name? IE, addressing Rune Laurel as "Rune," or "Laurel"?

Some longer names are written as two words, but this is sort of a highbrow affectation used by some higher-ranking females and a lot of high-ranking males. It doesn't have any impact on how the name is spoken or how names are conveyed telepathically.

Since close Loroi friends do not often speak each others' names, there isn't much need for shortened nicknames. But Alex will be abbreviating some longer names.

Each caste has its own armor/uniform design. They're similar, but not the same. Most castes have multiple versions of the armor (formal, duty, specialist duty), and some have variants for higher ranks (especially Torrai).

Arioch: The Insider index does not properly show the “Loroi Warrior Castes: Rank Structure” update date of June 28th. You may wish to check and see whether there are any other such discrepancies.

I edit the change date in the Insider list where there's a major change. The timestamp on each individual page updates automatically, even if the change was minor or cosmetic.

Also, why does a promotion from Torrai Sorimi to Torret entail a jump from O4 to O6? and the same with Teidar Pallan > Rozerrei?

I'm trying to approximate the equivalent US rank for each title, but there isn't always a Loroi equivalent to every US rank.

Also also, FADM is O11 and the Azerein's equivalent would be O12 AN if anything would be the President of the United States, in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief. If.

I think the US pay grade metaphor breaks down once you get to Emperors, but I didn't feel like leaving the cell blank.

But what I was trying to convey is the Emperor is a military officer who can and does actually command forces in the field, rather than a purely "civilian" leader.

[e2]Actually, how fast does Loroi hair grow? Human hair grows ~6 inches a year. I imagine their medical technology could accelerate this if so desired?

Loroi hair grows at a similar rate as human hair. Keep in mind that Greywind is several hundred years old.

How many tibos in a Deinar tozon?

Roughly 8,000; I don't seem to have a firm value for the length of the Deinar year.

One solon is 1.092 seconds. One tibos is 21*64*64 solon, or 93,929.472 seconds. (One nanapi is 9.271978022 digel.)

One Deinar tozon is about the same size as one Earth year, which averages 31,556,952 seconds, so it would seem to me that there should be about 400.6254 tibos in one Deinar tozon. So either that post is obsolete or my math screwed up. :s

Nah, it's my screw up. I must have been thinking digel or something else. The number would be around 340, but the tibos is a Perrein day, so the Deinar locals would use some other unit.

(Also, why is the bima rarely used?)

They mostly use solon instead. No reason needed.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Some longer names are written as two words, but this is sort of a highbrow affectation used by some higher-ranking females and a lot of high-ranking males. It doesn't have any impact on how the name is spoken or how names are conveyed telepathically.

Since close Loroi friends do not often speak each others' names, there isn't much need for shortened nicknames. But Alex will be abbreviating some longer names.

But they do need to speak when they're communicating beyond sanzai distance - say, two Loroi making a call to one another from opposite sides of the planet, or two fighter pilots. Wouldn't they need to use one another's spoken names in such cases, and in that case, a highbrow long-name like Rune Laurel might be cumbersome?

But okay - would they take such abbreviation well from a friend who's a complete psychic blank - IE, human? For example, if Rune Laurel and Alex somehow became good friends, would she be upset if he abbreviated it to "Rune," or take it in stride? Would that vary from individual to individual, or be general?

And how (or if?) would that change if you had Loroi who were assimilating into human culture? (Ex. Refugees who took shelter in human space, or shipwrecked castaways rescued by a Terran vessel?)

Each caste has its own armor/uniform design. They're similar, but not the same. Most castes have multiple versions of the armor (formal, duty, specialist duty), and some have variants for higher ranks (especially Torrai).

Honestly, the uniforms are in the top-five most boss-awesome thing in a comic chock-full of awesome. I really hope to see a Gallen using augmented reality to command a swarm of drones at some point.
--- Alex: "Oooh, can I try that?"

I think the US pay grade metaphor breaks down once you get to Emperors, but I didn't feel like leaving the cell blank.

But what I was trying to convey is the Emperor is a military officer who can and does actually command forces in the field, rather than a purely "civilian" leader.

So, more like Napoleon Bonaparte than Adolf Hitler, then - Hitler may have commanded from the rear, but it was a great detriment to Nazi Germany that he was able to do so instead of just telling his generals what he wanted done and then letting them sort it out themselves; whereas Napoleon was an experienced - and most importantly, competent - military officer who led his armies in the field.

Hang on, though - the Emperor's Flagship is also the Imperial Capitol. Does the Diadem Council cruise around with her? If so, if her ship gets destroyed - as happened with Eighth Dawn and Skymaster when the Emperor was forced to lead her personal squadron directly into the Umiak guns to prevent a breakthrough into undefended heartlands - wouldn't that take the Council out with her, and decapitate the government?

That would be a bit like the POTUS and every single member of congress and the Joint Chiefs sailing around on a Nimitz-class carrier. Sure, they're arguably better defended than they are on Capitol Hill, but if the ship goes down, it's a decapitation blow.

Loroi hair grows at a similar rate as human hair. Keep in mind that Greywind is several hundred years old.

Sure, though it wasn't actually Greywind I was referring to. But can they accelerate the growth rate if so desired - say, if something urgent enough that Greywind has to personally flee on foot from comes up, and she just hacks her hair off to make escape practical, and after the danger is past, she doesn't feel like waiting another 90 years (which she may not have) to get her hair back?



[e]Also, a question regarding Loroi ships:
Did Eye of Heaven have an intentional (from a Doylist point of view) design flaw in that she has no point-defense cannons?