Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by sunphoenix »

Ok... this is sort of off subject.. a math question...

I'm trying to convert some of Arioch's ships stats tot he BESM game system.. its abstract enough for it to work. I got a handle on converting starship weapons.. not sure if my armor conversion is accurate.. but thats another mater for later. but whats baking my noodle is the Drive G's of acceleration.

I'm trying to figure out har far will a ship at 1 G of acceleration move in say a unit of time of 1 minute...compared to how far a ship at 20 G's or a Torpedo at 400 Gs!

I'm calculating it this way...

1 G = 10meters/sec/sec

Example -
Given: Ship with 30 Gs of thrust.
Question: how far will it move in 1 minute of time?

30 Gs x 10meters/sec x 10meters/sec {G's of thrust is an acceleration not a constant speed} x 60sec {Time unit} = 180,000meters/minute/minute or 180km/minute/minute {its an constant acceleration not a consistent speed}

...is this correct or am I screwed in the head?

This seems like a calculus problem.. but I never got the chance to take calculus in Hight School or Trade school. :(

Feel free to chime in here Arioch. :)
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by bunnyboy »

After 1 minute

With 1 G acceleration object has speed of 600 m/s and the distance is 18 km
With 20 G acceleration object has speed of 12 km/s and the distance is 360 km
With 30 G acceleration object has speed of 18 km/s and the distance is 540 km
With 400 G acceleration object has speed of 240 km/s and the distance is 7200 km
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by sunphoenix »

bunnyboy wrote:After 1 minute

With 1 G acceleration object has speed of 600 m/s and the distance is 18 km
With 20 G acceleration object has speed of 12 km/s and the distance is 360 km
With 30 G acceleration object has speed of 18 km/s and the distance is 540 km
With 400 G acceleration object has speed of 240 km/s and the distance is 7200 km
Could you post your formulas for the calculations or PM them to me? I'd really like to know how it is calculated... so I can do it on my own... :)

...And Thank you!
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by sunphoenix »

sunphoenix wrote:Ok... this is sort of off subject.. a math question...

I'm trying to convert some of Arioch's ships stats tot he BESM game system.. its abstract enough for it to work. I got a handle on converting starship weapons.. not sure if my armor conversion is accurate.. but thats another mater for later. but whats baking my noodle is the Drive G's of acceleration.

I'm trying to figure out har far will a ship at 1 G of acceleration move in say a unit of time of 1 minute...compared to how far a ship at 20 G's or a Torpedo at 400 Gs!

I'm calculating it this way...

1 G = 10meters/sec/sec

Example -
Given: Ship with 30 Gs of thrust.
Question: how far will it move in 1 minute of time?

30 Gs x 10meters/sec x 10meters/sec {G's of thrust is an acceleration not a constant speed} x 60sec {Time unit} = 180,000meters/minute/minute or 180km/minute/minute {its an constant acceleration not a consistent speed}

...is this correct or am I screwed in the head?

This seems like a calculus problem.. but I never got the chance to take calculus in Hight School or Trade school. :(

Feel free to chime in here Arioch. :)
Hmmm... Suederwind pointed me at this link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerati ... celeration

I think that would make my above example more like this...

1 G = 9.806 meters/sec^2

Example -
Given: Ship with 30 Gs of thrust.
Question: how far will it move in 1 minute of time?

30 Gs x 9.806 meters x 60sec^2 {Time unit} [3,600] = 1,059,048 meters in 1 minute or 1,059.048km in 1 minute {its an constant acceleration not a consistent speed}

...Is THIS correct?!?
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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sunphoenix wrote:Could you post your formulas for the calculations or PM them to me? I'd really like to know how it is calculated... so I can do it on my own... :)


...And Thank you!
It is some basic physics. This is not taking into account any Einsteinian time-dilation relativity nastiness, but it is a good approximation (as in no difference for a ton of decimal places) if you aren't close to the speed of light.

The general kinematic equations (v = (ds)/(dt) and a = (dv)/(dt)) are calculus based but a common derivation (found by integrating) of them are the equations for constant acceleration which only require some algebra to use.

s is position.
s_0 is initial position.
v is velocity.
v_0 is initial velocity.
a is acceleration (must be constant).
t is time.

v = v_0 + at
s = s_0 + (v_0)t + 0.5at^2
v^2 = (v_0)^2 + 2a(s - s_0)

As an example using the first two:
s_0 = 0 m.
v_0 = 0 m/s.
a = g = 9.80665 m/s^2 (9.81 is a commonly used rounding off, but I felt like being annoyingly precise).
t = 60 s.

v = (0 m/s) + (9.80665 m/s^2)(60 s) = 588.399 m/s.
s = (0 m) + (0 m/s)(60 s) + 0.5(9.80665 m/s^2)(60 s)^2 = 17651.97 m = 17.65197 km.

Now I need to go do my structural mechanics homework. Oh the joys of college.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by sunphoenix »

Random Person wrote:
sunphoenix wrote:Could you post your formulas for the calculations or PM them to me? I'd really like to know how it is calculated... so I can do it on my own... :)


...And Thank you!
It is some basic physics. This is not taking into account any Einsteinian time-dilation relativity nastiness, but it is a good approximation (as in no difference for a ton of decimal places) if you aren't close to the speed of light.

The general kinematic equations (v = (ds)/(dt) and a = (dv)/(dt)) are calculus based but a common derivation (found by integrating) of them are the equations for constant acceleration which only require some algebra to use.

s is position.
s_0 is initial position.
v is velocity.
v_0 is initial velocity.
a is acceleration (must be constant).
t is time.

v = v_0 + at
s = s_0 + (v_0)t + 0.5at^2
v^2 = (v_0)^2 + 2a(s - s_0)

As an example using the first two:
s_0 = 0 m.
v_0 = 0 m/s.
a = g = 9.80665 m/s^2 (9.81 is a commonly used rounding off, but I felt like being annoyingly precise).
t = 60 s.

v = (0 m/s) + (9.80665 m/s^2)(60 s) = 588.399 m/s.
s = (0 m) + (0 m/s)(60 s) + 0.5(9.80665 m/s^2)(60 s)^2 = 17651.97 m = 17.65197 km.

Now I need to go do my structural mechanics homework. Oh the joys of college.
OMG! You're certainly brighter than I! Thank you, this helps A LOT! Now I'm trying to think of how I could possibly commit this to memory... I don't think I'm that bright... but I can do the math! Thank you!
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

There's a much simpler formula.

S = ½at²

Displacement = 1/2 acceleration x (time squared)
= 1/2 * 30*9.8m/s/s * 60²
= 529.2 km

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by sunphoenix »

Arioch wrote:There's a much simpler formula.

S = ½at²

Displacement = 1/2 acceleration x (time squared)
= 1/2 * 30*9.8m/s/s * 60²
= 529.2 km
WOOT! Thanks Arioch! That's A LOT easier to remember...{for a Lord of Chaos you're sure nice!} :)

But I'll try to keep both in mind... I like to improve my knowledge and understanding with each day!
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Random Person »

sunphoenix wrote:OMG! You're certainly brighter than I! Thank you, this helps A LOT! Now I'm trying to think of how I could possibly commit this to memory... I don't think I'm that bright... but I can do the math! Thank you!
No problem. What you did in the post you ninjaed me with was almost right, you just forgot to multiply the term by 0.5.

The equations on the page Suederwind linked to use displacement rather than position. Displacement means change in position. Using my earlier variables (Delta)s = s - s_0.

(Delta) is for the upper-case Greek letter Delta (looks like a triangle) which I am to lazy to dig up a character of. It is used to mean "change in" or "(new value) - (old value)" in case you didn't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_of_motion has versions closer to what I used, and it also shows most of the derivation.

Physics comes pretty easily to me, but I know I'm lucky in that regard. Calculus itself isn't all that hard, but the algebra you have to do to get to the calculus can be. On the topic of memorizing them, don't sweat it. Even though I probably could recite them, I grabbed a textbook and looked them up since I still don't trust myself on them, and I've been using them for several years. Just remember how to use them and where to find them and you'll be good.
Arioch wrote:There's a much simpler formula.

S = ½at²

Displacement = 1/2 acceleration x (time squared)
= 1/2 * 30*9.8m/s/s * 60²
= 529.2 km
Bah, that's just one of the equations I wrote with a term dropped off and another two combined, and it has more conditions for its use due to the dropped term. Can't use it if you have a non-zero initial velocity, which big-honking-spaceships with pew-pew lasers frequently have.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Random Person wrote:Bah, that's just one of the equations I wrote with a term dropped off and another two combined, and it has more conditions for its use due to the dropped term. Can't use it if you have a non-zero initial velocity, which big-honking-spaceships with pew-pew lasers frequently have.
In that case, just use:

S = ½at² + vt

where v is initial velocity.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Random Person »

Arioch wrote: In that case, just use:

S = ½at² + vt

where v is initial velocity.
Which is what I wrote only with displacement instead of position. :mrgreen:

One may be slightly more efficient than the other in some situations, but only slightly.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Grayhome »

Quick question for Arioch, will we seen any Loroi twins in this comic? I would be interested in seeing how they interact in a telepathic society.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Grayhome wrote:Quick question for Arioch, will we seen any Loroi twins in this comic?
I don't currently have any plans for characters that are twins. I think that Loroi twins would be even more rare than Human twins, and most would be identical rather than fraternal. I do like the idea of a set of male twins making lots of trouble; I can see that being an interesting historical or mythical reference.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Random Person »

Arioch wrote:The Loroi had large reserves of military personnel during peacetime; for every warrior standing on the deck of an actual starship there were probably two or three more at desk jobs training and competing for the opportunity to take her place. Once that pool was exhausted, they would use warriors retrained from other specialties. There was also a small number of new warrior graduates every year -- population growth would have been low in peacetime, but never at zero. And finally, when that bucket was empty, they would have to use civilians for some positions. I think for the majority of the war, the critical shortage would have been ships rather than people, but in 2140-41, things were probably pretty bad.
Okay, that makes sense. As I am sure has been discussed before, the war is mainly a naval one. Even pivotal naval battles with major losses tend to have small losses of life when compared to contempory ground battles. Ships tend to either have most of the crew make it home (even if the ship doesn't), or almost the entire crew get wiped out.

Before the war, did the Loroi regularly rotate crews between line and staff positions? Not as punishment but as a way to get as many experienced and trained crews (and staff) as they could. For example, in the US military, officers basically do a tour in a line position, then a tour in a staff position, then a tour in a line position, and so on and so forth.

Do the Loroi pull successful people off the line to train replacements? You can't really do this at the upper levels (flag officers and such) since the turnover rate is pretty low with them, but at the mid or lower levels this is crucially important. In some areas it seems the Loroi are on the edge of an attritional death spiral, where experienced people are lost, so replacements don't get training and shared wisdom they need and are then lost before they can gain and spread experience.
Arioch wrote:The Loroi military has low ranks, but they don't have a class distinction between enlisted and officer; even the lowest-ranking Loroi warrior has been through a training regimen that gives her significant social status. There are always menial tasks required in any combat unit, and wherever these can't be pawned off to some civilian contractors, they will be performed by the lower-ranking warriors (or those who have pissed off their commander in some way). These won't be popular duties, but warriors shouldn't be afraid to get their hands dirty.
The rank list provided concentrates on shipboard titles; ground-based infantry will probably have a greater variety of low-ranking titles, and many menial functions may be provided by civilian personnel. On board a starship, however, civilians are not allowed, and the cost of operating such a unit is so extreme that it doesn't make much sense to put anyone but your best available people at every position. Sometimes this will mean that a person with the equivalent of a college education is turning a wrench or cleaning a toilet, but you don't have to look any farther than our own space program to see that principle already in action today.
Also, at this technology level there is a significant amount of automation, so there will be some non-humanoid robots to help with some of the most difficult and menial tasks.
Okay, I think there are some better questions that would explain the reasons.

How expensive (in terms of percentage of GDP per unit of mass, anything without a boatload of decimal places counts) is it to get things into orbit? If it's expensive as hell you'll only pay to put your best and brightest up there. However, Outsider being rather soft it is probably not that much of an expense for them.

How expensive are spaceships to build and maintain in terms of GDP? This is actually rather unimportant compared to the next one.

How large is the pool of willing applicants compared to the need? If you have dozens or hundreds of people qualified and eager for every slot, then you can afford to pick and choose (example, astronauts and to a lesser extent very competative universities). However, if that isn't the case, than you have to make due (example, the US military, where we put multi-million dollar vehicles and helicopters in the hands of the enlisted, and we fill multi-billion dollar warships that cost massive amounts of resources to have with them too). The example you use of the space program isn't that applicable, since there aren't enough people up there to warrent or even enable that kind of specialisation. If we were to put a base on the moon with hundreds or more people on it, I guarantee you that there will be a few janitors. They would be highly skilled tradesmen or technicions though, rather than licensed engineers and doctors.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Random Person wrote: Before the war, did the Loroi regularly rotate crews between line and staff positions? Not as punishment but as a way to get as many experienced and trained crews (and staff) as they could. For example, in the US military, officers basically do a tour in a line position, then a tour in a staff position, then a tour in a line position, and so on and so forth.
In peacetime fleet units, groups or individuals would compete for available slots during workups, with the best-performing group earning the right to deploy, but then that group would normally have to sit out a tour afterwards before it could be deployed again.
Random Person wrote: Do the Loroi pull successful people off the line to train replacements? You can't really do this at the upper levels (flag officers and such) since the turnover rate is pretty low with them, but at the mid or lower levels this is crucially important. In some areas it seems the Loroi are on the edge of an attritional death spiral, where experienced people are lost, so replacements don't get training and shared wisdom they need and are then lost before they can gain and spread experience.
Ideally, they would rotate people home for time off the line and to better facilitate training, but that can be difficult in some units, particularly the interdiction groups. The main "battle lines" that stay in friendly territory are often near base and have some downtime between attacks, but the interdiction groups frequently go long periods in between visits to base, during which they are resupplied in the field. It's tough to send your best people home with the supply convoy when you have to return immediately to combat and you're already short on experiened crewmembers as it is.
Random Person wrote: How expensive (in terms of percentage of GDP per unit of mass, anything without a boatload of decimal places counts) is it to get things into orbit? If it's expensive as hell you'll only pay to put your best and brightest up there. However, Outsider being rather soft it is probably not that much of an expense for them. How expensive are spaceships to build and maintain in terms of GDP? This is actually rather unimportant compared to the next one.
Getting mass into orbit is relatively cheap at this tech level; what's more significant is the cost of moving it from one star system to another. The chief recurring cost associated with a crewwoman is going to be the cost of keeping her (and the ship carrying her) supplied.
Random Person wrote:How large is the pool of willing applicants compared to the need? If you have dozens or hundreds of people qualified and eager for every slot, then you can afford to pick and choose (example, astronauts and to a lesser extent very competative universities).
In our system, the civilian economy is paramount and individual workers are free agents; the military has a difficult time competing salary-wise with the private sector for educated workers. So a large number of military recruits are poorly educated, and the civilian class division between educated and uneducated workers is mirrored in the military division between officer and enlisted ranks. This has worked reasonably well for us, but there is a (largely artificial) barrier between enlisted personnel and officers; it’s very common that a junior officer has far less experience, training, and skill than the senior NCO who is his subordinate.

In the Loroi system, the military is paramount, and the civilian economy exists almost solely to support the military. The warrior class is the “upper” class, and civilians are considered inferior and have a lower standard of living. Loroi workers are (usually) not free agents; they are educated by the state, but then become part of a caste or guild upon reaching adulthood. Low-ranking Loroi (both warrior and civilian) are a bit like interns; most are not paid a salary, but are trained and housed and fed by their employers. As a Loroi worker rises in position, she gains additional benefits and compensation (sometimes monetary, sometimes not). Guilds are often local monopolies (and the military is also a monopoly), so you can switch jobs, but it’s hard to find higher pay at the same job somewhere else.

Once a Loroi has completed warrior trials, she is part of the society’s elite, and enjoys a comparatively high standard of living, even if she never rises above the lowest rank. Unless she is dishonorably discharged for some reason, she will never "retire" into civilian life. As a warror, she may sometimes have to dig latrines and her life may frequently be in danger, but that is considered part of a warrior’s duty. If she doesn’t like it, she can choose to suffer the ignominy of demotion to the civilian class. Loroi culture is a warrior culture, instilled with warrior values from birth. Every billet on a starship is much coveted by a large number of available candidates.

Loroi warrior education does have different levels; many technical disciplines require a 4-year education similar to a college degree, and some less-technical disciplines (such as infantry) only require 2 years of training. For example, some of the Soroin you’ve seen in the comic who are wearing jumpsuits instead of armor (such as the “shoe-girl”) are 2-year-educated “Novice” Soroin, who perform mostly menial tasks. (When considering the length of Loroi secondary education, keep in mind that it begins at age 8, and so includes elements of what we would consider high school.) I haven’t classified these as “enlisted” ranks because the Loroi don’t share our concept of the class division between enlisted and officer; there is no barrier to promotion for a 2-year-educated Soroin to the same higher rank that a 4-year-educated Soroin would have, provided that she puts in the time and work and shows the appropriate aptitude. But if she does not, then like the midshipmen of the age of sail, she may stay a Novice for a very long time. (There are also specialties that require training equivalent to a postgraduate degree, but this is usually attained on the job.)
Random Person wrote: The example you use of the space program isn't that applicable, since there aren't enough people up there to warrent or even enable that kind of specialisation. If we were to put a base on the moon with hundreds or more people on it, I guarantee you that there will be a few janitors. They would be highly skilled tradesmen or technicions though, rather than licensed engineers and doctors.
The space program is an extreme example, but it’s the same basic principle. If there are a limited number of available spots, and every position is important (especially on a warship, which has large crews for the purpose of redundancy, it’s important to be able to do more than just mop floors) and very expensive to supply, and highly coveted, then it makes sense to fill that spot with the best available people. And for the Loroi, who have to pay for their warriors’ cost of living whether they are sitting at a desk or toiling aboard a starship, the crew’s “salary” is not really a significant concern. As we just discussed, in peacetime the Loroi maintained several extra crews for each starship.

And comparing the education of a midshipman to that of a doctor is a bit of a stretch.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by VictorValor »

Do the Loroi have paratroopers?

Also, what GURPS books would be necessary to run an Outsider campaign?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Grayhome »

Ultratech and Psionics, I would imagine.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

GURPS Space would help as well. If they still have that.

But I think you could probably do fine with just the basic rulebook.
VictorValor wrote:Do the Loroi have paratroopers?

Possibly, but with flying APC's I think there's limited use for parachute troops.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Absalom »

Arioch wrote:
VictorValor wrote:Do the Loroi have paratroopers?

Possibly, but with flying APC's I think there's limited use for parachute troops.
For that matter, if you have flying APCs, then those are your parachute troops. The main reason for paratroopers is the inconvenience of moving basically anything else by air.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Absalom wrote:For that matter, if you have flying APCs, then those are your parachute troops. The main reason for paratroopers is the inconvenience of moving basically anything else by air.
That's essentially what I meant. Air cav is used instead of paratroops.

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