Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[entity2636]

I think you very much underestimate the amount of information still on paper or preserved elsewhere. You won't get a perfect snapshot of all life but we can see enough surviving artifacts, made of wood and other perishable materials, from our own history that've lasted hundreds of thousands of years that it's fully reasonable to assume that even if humanity was violently killed to a man tomorrow half a million years later an alien archaeologist would in fact find surviving books, magazines, and newspapers if they looked hard enough.

True, and I'm not implying that there will not be anything left for the future by the present day "us". I seconded that a fully digital recycling culture will probably not leave much useful data and that we as a culture are moving in that direction. I'm also not implying that we should stop moving towards a digital culture, because that would be a stupid and illogical thing to say. I meant that for a future space alien archaeologist there would probably be loads of study material available up to a certain point in our history, from when onward the amount of data would decline until becoming non-existent or sporadic the further we advance. That is the problem the Soia-Liron species were having.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Check out these cool human signs that represent "punch," and "hug," and are neat archeological finds.

SpoilerShow

As an anthropologist friend of mine is fond of saying, it is really, really hard not to bring your own contemporary conceptions to an artifact. You can make a lot of educated guesses, but knowing what was happening thousands of years ago based on scattered clues, to any serious degree of confidence, is exceedingly difficult.

I guarantee that if humankind disappeared tomorrow, there would be no paper artifacts a half a million years later that weren't either sealed in an inert gas filled vault that could withstand tectonic action and corrosion while maintaining its airtight seal for that time, or blasted into space in a tomb of lead.

[Mr.Tucker]

True, and I'm not implying that there will not be anything left for the future by the present day "us". I seconded that a fully digital recycling culture will probably not leave much useful data and that we as a culture are moving in that direction.

Actually, that's just our current tech. There is no reason why future tech could not be more robust:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_data_storage
https://newatlas.com/eternal-data-stora ... ass/41951/

Though reading them might be tricky unless someone created pictographic instructions.

5 star comment right here.

If you're gonna do shameless speculation, at least make sure it's GOOD shameless speculation

[Krulle]

Check out these cool human signs that represent "punch," and "hug," and are neat archeological finds. ;)

SpoilerShow

Your friend is right. I never saw the "Ampelmännchen" as a permission to hit pedestrians walking in my path, or to hug other pedestrians who are also waiting at the crossing.
#metoo would otherwise be all about me groping unknown women at large crossings. ;)

[Walter]

Re: Mr.Tucker's speculation that the Soia are/were digital beings.

If that were the case, it makes the Historians, and the AIs they hide behind, absolutely fascinating.

[CF2]

What happens psychically or telepathically when a Loroi goes to sleep? Doesn't the communications of their fellow Loroi keep them up or rouse them, like a group speaking nearby to someone attempting to rest would? Are telepathic sensations simply not alarming or disturbing to Loroi because only other Loroi are capable of creating such sensations in their natural environment, unlike sound and touch sensations which could warn of a dangerous animal's approach?

[entity2636]

Essentially, it's like children learning to speak - the Loroi learn at an early age how to control their telepathy, talk telepathically to others, not consciously or unconsciously "broadcast", as well as shield their minds from unwanted "reception". An inability to control one's telepathy would be considered a mental disability that would require treatment or termination.

Receiving unwanted telepathy when you're trying to sleep would be similar to someone talking in your ear while, but with more accompanying data like emotions, mood, etc. Imagine someone talking in your ear while sitting on your chest, tickling your feet and and waving your most/least favorite food item under your nose, all while you try to fall asleep

There are a couple Insider entries on the workings of telepathy, like this general one http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_telepathy.html

By the way, our Fireblade tends to have nightmares and telepathically talk in her sleep.

[Mr.Tucker]

Re: Mr.Tucker's speculation that the Soia are/were digital beings.

If that were the case, it makes the Historians, and the AIs they hide behind, absolutely fascinating.

The Historians are an interesting bunch. Of all the races, they are probably the only ones that have VIVID historic recollection of who the Soia were and what they did (though something tells me those are not pleasant memories). One would think the best way to learn of the Soia would be to ask these dudes (though, there's no reason the Historians would answer). I do see something of a mistrust they have against Soia-Liron species, and that may be due to.... old stories .

As for the AI's, those are merely constructs. There probably would be levels to artificial intelligence, and the Soia were most likely a lot more advanced in that regard. Think less holographic AI, and more mind uploading. (ofc, this, is, and I stress, shameless speculation, but otherwise I simply don't see anyone in a meatbag having a firm controlling grasp on space elves that can mangle a sedan, read minds, communicate undetected over FTL distances, etc).

[Victor_D]

If the Historians were around, physically, at the time of the Soia collapse, that would make them what, 275,000 years old spacefaring civilization? I'd think they'd be far, far, faaaaar ahead of the other races technologically if that were the case. Unless they've been in some sort of a cultural and technological stasis for all this time, which I don't consider terribly likely.

[Mr.Tucker]

If the Historians were around, physically, at the time of the Soia collapse, that would make them what, 275,000 years old spacefaring civilization? I'd think they'd be far, far, faaaaar ahead of the other races technologically if that were the case. Unless they've been in some sort of a cultural and technological stasis for all this time, which I don't consider terribly likely.

To quote the insider: "Further, it is speculated that the Historians never lost much of their Soia-era technology or history."

[cacambo43]

To quote the insider: "Further, it is speculated that the Historians never lost much of their Soia-era technology or history."

Which makes it very likely the Historians are holding all the cards and that this conflict is contrived or at least heavily manipulated. I think I like the hypothesis that Humanity shows up well before they might be expected to, and the Historians tried to prevent contact, as it might disrupt their plans. Even with access to higher technology, it could be that their ability doesn't quite reach their knowledge yet.

CJSF

[Victor_D]

To quote the insider: "Further, it is speculated that the Historians never lost much of their Soia-era technology or history."

"Speculated" being the operative word. They may as well be some newly emergent race which just stumbled on more preserved Soia-era artefacts or ruins. This would give them a clear technological edge over their neighbours, which they decided not to exercise for some reason (perhaps they're not naturally militaristic and expansionist and pursue other, more obscure goals). Or did they...

Which makes it very likely the Historians are holding all the cards and that this conflict is contrived or at least heavily manipulated. I think I like the hypothesis that Humanity shows up well before they might be expected to, and the Historians tried to prevent contact, as it might disrupt their plans. Even with access to higher technology, it could be that their ability doesn't quite reach their knowledge yet.

As I mentioned before, I suspect the conflict was orchestrated by the Historians, in some capacity. According to the official history of the war, nobody knows what triggered the incident. The Historians could have been feeding the Umiak's natural paranoia and then lit the fire by using a "stealth" ship or a ship disguised as a Loroi ship to trigger a full scale conflict. I am not sure why they'd do that, but I suspect them nevertheless.

[Mr.Tucker]

Dude, speculation is what we do here in between updates. As you can imagine, we do quite a bit of it .....

Yes, I tend to think the conflict was orchestrated by the Historians. I think they helped the Umiak arm and then launch a war. Only I think the Umiak realized there was little to gain for them due to fierce Loroi resistance, so they turned on the Historians, who then proceeded to arm the Union (they themselves being quite benign militarily despite their tech). I think this because the plasma focus is not something civ's at this tech level possess, at least not in refined form like the Umiak. They got it from somewhere, and the only ones with access to it were the Historians.

And the fact that the Well of Souls in Historian territory is no coincidence I think...

[Victor_D]

Dude, speculation is what we do here in between updates. As you can imagine, we do quite a bit of it .....

I meant "in-universe speculation"

Yes, I tend to think the conflict was orchestrated by the Historians. I think they helped the Umiak arm and then launch a war. Only I think the Umiak realized there was little to gain for them due to fierce Loroi resistance, so they turned on the Historians, who then proceeded to arm the Union (they themselves being quite benign militarily despite their tech). I think this because the plasma focus is not something civ's at this tech level possess, at least not in refined form like the Umiak. They got it from somewhere, and the only ones with access to it were the Historians.

And the fact that the Well of Souls in Historian territory is no coincidence I think...

Indeed. The only thing I am not sure is the motive. But perhaps they got bored with the existing balance of power and decided to start a war to have something to write histories about. Perhaps the whole thing is their little social experiment that somehow got out of hand (if you give your lab rats guns and the ability to use them on you, well...).

[dex drako]

"Speculated" being the operative word. They may as well be some newly emergent race which just stumbled on more preserved Soia-era artefacts or ruins. This would give them a clear technological edge over their neighbours, which they decided not to exercise for some reason (perhaps they're not naturally militaristic and expansionist and pursue other, more obscure goals). Or did they...

what you have to remember is at that level of tech you're on the back end of the tech growth bell curve.

endless exponential growth is a lie, the universe has a lot of hard limits that means a lot of tech has an upper limit that can't be passed. so tech growth tends to slow to a crawl and then stop after awhile. it also means time scales in the hundreds of thousands of year become doable for single species if not single characters to live through.

the game this comic is loosely based on had more then one group that would seed world with life then sit around and do nothing but wait and watch for hundreds of thousands of year to see what came from it. ( one Soia like and the other was the main enemy of the game that was coming back to wipe out the left over races)

[Victor_D]

BTW Arioch (sorry if this was discussed before), but do Loroi have the concept of a "dissident"? As in a person who opposes the ruling regime and wishes to change it, for example civilians or even warriors opposing the caste system and the "leading role" of the Torrai caste, these sort of things. How do the Loroi treat them? (Or rather used to treat them before the war; I understand that in wartime, any subversive activities will likely be punished harshly). Do they mostly let them prattle on, knowing that they are completely marginal and nobody listens to them, or do they actively suppress dissent, in the way totalitarian/authoritarian regimes do here on Earth?

what you have to remember is at that level of tech you're on the back end of the tech growth bell curve.

endless exponential growth is a lie, the universe has a lot of hard limits that means a lot of tech has an upper limit that can't be passed. so tech growth tends to slow to a crawl and then stop after awhile. it also means time scales in the hundreds of thousands of year become doable for single species if not single characters to live through.

I actually subscribe to this view, too. But still, almost 0.3 million years should give the Historians an immense edge over anyone else in this corner of the Galaxy. They could easily have colonised every world while the other races were still running around the savannas with stone-tipped spears. They could have constructed megastructures like Dyson swarms, ringworlds, amazing wonders. Instead, they appear to be territorially smaller than the Loroi/Umiak and, given the success of the Umiak incursion into their territory, their military isn't particularly strong by superpower standards. If they had amazing powers, they would have used them by now (unless this is all for show and they're just having fun).

the game this comic is loosely based on had more then one group that would seed world with life then sit around and do nothing but wait and watch for hundreds of thousands of year to see what came from it. ( one Soia like and the other was the main enemy of the game that was coming back to wipe out the left over races)

I know, but Master of Orion is more of a space fantasy, while Outsider takes a "harder" sci-fi approach to things.

[dex drako]

I actually subscribe to this view, too. But still, almost 0.3 million years should give the Historians an immense edge over anyone else in this corner of the Galaxy. They could easily have colonised every world while the other races were still running around the savannas with stone-tipped spears. They could have constructed megastructures like Dyson swarms, ringworlds, amazing wonders. Instead, they appear to be territorially smaller than the Loroi/Umiak and, given the success of the Umiak incursion into their territory, their military isn't particularly strong by superpower standards. If they had amazing powers, they would have used them by now (unless this is all for show and they're just having fun).

or they simply locked themselves away into giant computer sims and washed their hands of the outside world all together. they do seem the type and it would explain a lot of the as they wouldn't need to expand as the sim would give them all the room they could need. they likely could stop the umiak by themselves but would be leaving there sims and coming back to the real world which any gamer will tell you is no fun. lol

i really just don't see the historians as the bad guys as its far to early into the story, i expect the true villeins of the story to be a group we haven't meet just yet

[Arioch]

BTW Arioch (sorry if this was discussed before), but do Loroi have the concept of a "dissident"? As in a person who opposes the ruling regime and wishes to change it, for example civilians or even warriors opposing the caste system and the "leading role" of the Torrai caste, these sort of things. How do the Loroi treat them? (Or rather used to treat them before the war; I understand that in wartime, any subversive activities will likely be punished harshly). Do they mostly let them prattle on, knowing that they are completely marginal and nobody listens to them, or do they actively suppress dissent, in the way totalitarian/authoritarian regimes do here on Earth?

It depends on how one expresses one's opposition. One the one hand, Loroi society is one that values honesty and having the courage of one's own convictions; if a person disagrees with something, she is expected to say so. On the other hand, Loroi society has rigid customs and a clear hierarchy of authority; once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply. Questioning authority is acceptable, but disobeying authority is not. Insubordination is a crime, even in peacetime. If you announce that you intend to overthrow the government, that threat will be taken seriously and you will be treated as a criminal.

There is open debate and "loyal opposition" parties in Loroi political life. The chief opposition party is the Loroi Axis, which is essentially a republican faction that desires to reduce the power of the imperial central government in favor of regional assemblies. Members voice objection to policies which they disagree with, but then are expected to support whatever decisions are made. Opposition is considered a civic duty, and it is also a well-respected act of courage (because when the inevitable occasional internal conflict arises, your opponents know who you are, and while they respect your courage that doesn't mean they won't kill you). Stillstorm is a supporter of the republican movement, which is part of the reason why she is where she is.

Greywind was a vocal opponent of the policies of the previous emperor before she herself acceded to the position, and this is an example of how change can come to a system like this: if you voice disagreement to a policy and that policy fails, others may be more likely to listen to you in the future. (But that doesn't mean you won't have to bump off some opponents at some point along the road.)

[Jayngfet]

hi hi

Check out these cool human signs that represent "punch," and "hug," and are neat archeological finds.

SpoilerShow

As an anthropologist friend of mine is fond of saying, it is really, really hard not to bring your own contemporary conceptions to an artifact. You can make a lot of educated guesses, but knowing what was happening thousands of years ago based on scattered clues, to any serious degree of confidence, is exceedingly difficult.

I guarantee that if humankind disappeared tomorrow, there would be no paper artifacts a half a million years later that weren't either sealed in an inert gas filled vault that could withstand tectonic action and corrosion while maintaining its airtight seal for that time, or blasted into space in a tomb of lead.

Except again, we have wooden artifacts that old. Hell as an extreme example food from both the civil war and egyptian tombs is occasionally still edible.

The thing you aren't getting is that the difficulties are largely conjecture because we've never had a hundreds of thousands of years old advanced civilization to pick through. We have smaller and more limited civilizations with far less durable goods, and a few primitive cavemen. You can claim those are punch and hug symbols, but they also exist in the millions with variations and context behind them that would survive even if only a few of them were left around.

Even if you wanted to play the game of "well there's no paper artifacts" you're forgetting that large portions of our paper products aren't paper, they're composite materials specifically designed to house wear and tear.

[entity2636]

It depends on how one expresses one's opposition. One the one hand, Loroi society is one that values honesty and having the courage of one's own convictions; if a person disagrees with something, she is expected to say so. On the other hand, Loroi society has rigid customs and a clear hierarchy of authority; once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply.

***

Opposition is considered a civic duty, and it is also a well-respected act of courage (because when the inevitable occasional internal conflict arises, your opponents know who you are, and while they respect your courage that doesn't mean they won't kill you). Stillstorm is a supporter of the republican movement, which is part of the reason why she is where she is.

Sounds like a very politically correct way of saying that there is no meaningful opposition. You are "expected" to voice your opinion, and the male philosopher castes will make certain that you do (I forget which one it was, who's task was to telepathically monitor the population's thoughts and report dissent, essentially fighting "thought crime"), but that means nothing, because you are still expected to comply to your superiors or the government. Else you are committing essentially insubordination or treason, resulting in the death sentence or transfer to the "raider squadrons" where the Umiak will end you. Death sentence by proxy, so to say.

Understandably, change in the government in such a system can happen only violently, when the "opposition" grows powerful enough that they can stage a coup, or large and vocal enough that the current system can't ignore them any longer at the risk of a civil war.

Sounds very similar to how the Soviet Union worked. If you were a civilian and dared to as much as speak aloud your objections about the System, even to your neighbors or "friends", most likely you would soon get a nighttime ride in a black sedan. Back then you could be sure that every other person was a KGB informant, and even children at school were encouraged to spy on and report their parents to the school's friendly People's Commissar. During Stalin's time you would either get shot on the spot or just disappear (driven into a forest and shot or sent to a gulag in Siberia if you were lucky). If you happened to be in the military during wartime, you would be transferred to the so called disciplinary battalions to be used as cannon fodder (Штрафбат for those who speak Russian), or shot on the spot. During Khruschev and later leaders you would probably be classified as insane and locked up in an asylum for life. Old folks here still remember a "joke" - what's the highest building in the capital? Answer - the KGB headquarters, because from there you can see Siberia.