Physiological/psychological effects on Ship Design.

[Trantor]

Come on, this is cheap.

I was reading the wiki about the Bismarck and it mentioned that the sustained rate of fire observed at Denmark Strait was 1 shot per minute.

So? How much would have been Mk 7´s rate of fire under the same circumstances? And how precise would the shots have been?
All Iowas were known as rolly sunshine-ships, not as serious and remarkably stable gunship-platforms like Bismarck.
Thanks to Panamax.

Edit: I just looked it up: Armoured Belt: Iowa 307mm, Bismarck 320mm (up to 370mm RHA-equivalent).
370>307.

You're comparing RHA-equivalent versus the straight number.

That´s how it´s done. It´s not my fault that germans were ahead in metallurgy.

Iowa
Belt: 12.1 in (310 mm),[5]

This is also max. <nitpick> And it´s 307, not 310. </nitpick>

[Majincarne]

Ohh wow that picture really started a merry ruckus.

My intended point was rather similar to what Arioch stated.

The Terran ships are still slug throwers at heart with some heavy hitting but slow missiles. While the other races are fast agile and firing 1c weapons.
Our ships are well gunned and impressive just not that feasible in a fight in the war thats going on.

And no fair pulling out the aircraftcarrier card in a battleship discussion, thats like claiming gun in a rock paper scissors fight.

[fredgiblet]

So? How much would have been Mk 7´s rate of fire under the same circumstances?

Somewhat lower most likely, but a smaller difference than theoretical max vs theoretical max.

And how precise would the shots have been?

You're the only person I've seen ever make the claim that their precision wouldn't have been excellent.


Also:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.htm

At 35,000 yards the Iowa class can penetrate the armor of the Bismarck's turrets, the Bismarck can't penetrate the Iowa's turrets until around 11,000 yards. Between 25 and 42 thousand yards the Iowa can penetrate the deck of the Bismarck, the Bismarck can't penetrate the deck of the Iowa.

[Trantor]

And no fair pulling out the aircraftcarrier card in a battleship discussion, thats like claiming gun in a rock paper scissors fight.

scnr.

[Trantor]

So? How much would have been Mk 7´s rate of fire under the same circumstances?

Somewhat lower most likely, but a smaller difference than theoretical max vs theoretical max.

Jaja.

And how precise would the shots have been?

You're the only person I've seen ever make the claim that their precision wouldn't have been excellent.

No, i´m not. Iowas are rolly. Bismarck/Tirpitz were not.

Also:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.htm

"This was possibly the best battleship gun ever put into service."
Spell "Chauvinism". (Yes, this blade is two-sided )
And also: A nice PR-Pic in sunny weather, waves below 5ft.
Iowas never hit anything of importance. They just shelled coastlines.
Poser-ships.

At 35,000 yards the Iowa class can penetrate the armor of the Bismarck's turrets, the Bismarck can't penetrate the Iowa's turrets until around 11,000 yards. Between 25 and 42 thousand yards the Iowa can penetrate the deck of the Bismarck, the Bismarck can't penetrate the deck of the Iowa.

LOL.

[Arioch]

Spell "Chauvinism". (Yes, this blade is two-sided )

No kidding. The German prefers the Bismarck... surprise!

Iowas never hit anything of importance. They just shelled coastlines.

Not our fault that the German surface navy had already been sunk by the time we joined the war.

[fredgiblet]

Not our fault that the German surface navy had already been sunk by the time we joined the war.

OR that the Japanese Navy couldn't field anything worth shooting at after the Iowa's came out. The exception of course being the Yamato-class, but the damn Navy pilots wouldn't let the Iowa class have a run at them of course it's just as well since the Yamato class would have given them a pretty damn good fight.

[Trantor]

Spell "Chauvinism". (Yes, this blade is two-sided )

No kidding. The German prefers the Bismarck... suprise.

Iowas never hit anything of importance. They just shelled coastlines.

Not our fault that the entire German surface navy had already been sunk by the time we joined the war.

Not all of them. Some stayed in harbors. Logical consequence of a wrong strategy. (Lacking overseas invasion targets OKM should have pushed for Uboats for commerce raiding. (Or better not have pushed for war at all, but this is another story...))

But one of those ships couldn´t even be sunked by two of your nuclear bombs: The "lucky ship" Prinz Eugen was still afloat after Baker, Operation Crossroads.

[TrashMan]

Bismarcks fire-control was AFAIK the most advanced of it´s time,

Erm...no.
Iowas fire-control system was the msot advanced of it's time.

Iowa is the best battelship ever designed. Period. Read a bit here:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

One of hte fastest bb's ever, with excellently designed defenses, LOADS of guns, accurate, long-ranged adn deadly guns, etc, etc....

Heck it can outrun and outgun the Bismarck. It's no contest at all.

[dfacto]

Well, fine shitstorm the Bismarck started. So let me finish it.

Fairy Swordfish + Torpedo > All


Enjoy riding your battleships around in circles.

[Trantor]

Iowa is the best battelship ever designed. Period. Read a bit here:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

Yes, yes. I know this page. A fanboy-site from somebody who doesn´t has the slightest clue. Bismarck the 2nd worst ship...

...you want fries with that?

Well, fine shitstorm the Bismarck started. So let me finish it.

Fairy Swordfish + Torpedo > All

Enjoy riding your battleships around in circles.

That´s EXACTLY the point.
And it works the other way round also: ONE long-range Bomber delivering a FritzX (assuming it does not fail as usually) or Hs293 midship -> Everything´s go byebye.

[TrashMan]

Iowa is the best battelship ever designed. Period. Read a bit here:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

Yes, yes. I know this page. A fanboy-site from somebody who doesn´t has the slightest clue. Bismarck the 2nd worst ship...

...you want fries with that?

Ok...so who has the slightest clue then?... Aside from the ubermensch that is you, of course?

Fairy Swordfish + Torpedo > All

Given that the Iowa has the best AA defense of any battleship ever...you're gonna need a bit more than that.

[fredgiblet]

Ok...so who has the slightest clue then?... Aside from the ubermensch that is you, of course?

Whichever one says that the Bismarck is the best ship ever of course. To be fair I was reading some other threads on the subject and that site was mentioned as less than reputable, by people who agreed that Iowa was better.

[Trantor]

Ok...so who has the slightest clue then?... Aside from the ubermensch that is you, of course?

Oh, argumentum ad hominem? That will buff out...

Übermensch or not, i just admire passion for technology and craftsmanship.
I frequently visit museums or fairs of all kinds and when i see excellency it really makes my day.
Eg Submarines: The lone survivor of the XXI-Subs can be visited in Bremerhaven. Compare it to the russian tango-class sub that is moored here in Hamburg. The russian sub is 30 years younger, but compared to the german one it looks clumsy, weld seams are poor, the plumbing ist victorian at it´s best, electrics is a nightmare, room layout is poor etc pp, and then consider that the german boat was build under constant attack while the russian was built in peacetimes.

Also warships. I have close pics of construction details of Bismarck in an old book, and then i compare it to HMS Belfast in London. No match. No wonder there´s nothing left of british industry today.

Or on the last fair for landsystems: Compare a clumsy Abrams with a german Leopard. If you´re not a total tech-illiterate, you´ll see the difference immediatly.

And that works an many fields. Being fond of excellency in tech is not a chauvinistic issue. It´s coincidence that most things that fancy me come from germany. Like my cars: My everydays sleepercar is an Audi, my Racecar a BMW M3 (RCN-series). But i´ve also seen good things from other countries: affordable Optics from the US, precision mechanics from Italy (!) and Svitzerland, electronics from far east and so on.
I have no problem to admire Gadgets from overseas.

And on that little flamewar here: The keyword was "Arctic Ocean". As rolly sunny-weather ships it would have been difficult for the Iowas.
I´m not belittling these ships. They were surprisingly well built, with very few serious issues on hull and engines, so it was no surprise that they served so long. Even the engines were surprisingly efficient for an american design of these times.
But there´s little sense in denying their downsides: Panamax demands made them too slender, and their center of gravity was too high. In harsh conditions they were no good gun platform.

Fairy Swordfish + Torpedo > All

Given that the Iowa has the best AA defense of any battleship ever...you're gonna need a bit more than that.

Try again. Remember: It was a lucky punch from that swordfish.

[Trantor]

Ok...so who has the slightest clue then?... Aside from the ubermensch that is you, of course?

Whichever one says that the Bismarck is the best ship ever of course.

Your hate is my fuel.

[Aralonia]

I have close pics of construction details of Bismarck in an old book, and then i compare it to HMS Belfast in London.

Hi there.

Please explain to me why you are comparing the construction of a treaty-violating battleship with the build style of a treaty-compliant 6" cruiser.

At the same time, HMS Vanguard would be a far superior comparison to the KM Bismarck than USS Iowa. Common set of complaints are "BUT IOWA HAS ONE MORE GUN" and "BUT IOWA IS FASTER" and "IOWA'S BOW GOES AWASH IN HEAVY SEA." So, let's give you Vanguard. 4x dual mounted 15" L42 RP12, 'bout 30 knots, and a ship commented on being able to keep her fore end dry in weather that made Iowa's clipper bow a wet beak.

[Trantor]

I have close pics of construction details of Bismarck in an old book, and then i compare it to HMS Belfast in London.

Please explain to me why you are comparing the construction

Why not? You can always compare the level of craftmanship. Both Ships are from the same time.

of a treaty-violating battleship with the build style of a treaty-compliant 6" cruiser.

That´s correct, but irrelevant in that matter.

[Aralonia]

Treaty-compliant ships needed to undergo a lot of cost-cutting and weight-saving measures to fit within the tonnage as well as possible. As for the Bismarck, that did not need to apply itself to the logic of the Washington Treaty (or, for that matter, the Versailles agreement that defined the design of both the Deutschland class armoured cruiser and early drafts of the Scharnhorst class battlecruiser) more time could be spent on finer parts of ship construction without as much concern for displacement.

To utilise that automobile analogy of yours, it is like comparing an Audi RS6 Avant with a Daihatsu Mira. Both cars have different clientele, different end roles, and different levels of fit and finish.

*Aralonia kisses the local library's copy of Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1905-1970, then rushes to the bathroom to clear his mouth of bacteria

[Trantor]

Treaty-compliant ships needed to undergo a lot of cost-cutting and weight-saving measures to fit within the tonnage as well as possible.

Well, that´s still no excuse for poor design in details and sloppy fabrication.

But there´s one occasion when sloppy fabrication came in handy for the brits: Aircraft engines. No joke, their much higher tolerances made them use more oil, but prevented them from piston squeezers in dogfight. Many german engines with their tight tolerances died from squeezers till that interrelationsship was discovered. (And still the german engineers were too proud to just copy their british colleagues, so they invented flower-vase-shaped bores with approx. 4/100mm more bore in the mid-section. Nerds.)

To utilise that automobile analogy of yours, it is like comparing an Audi RS6 Avant with a Daihatsu Mira. Both cars have different clientele, different end roles, and different levels of fit and finish.

Even if it´s not a matter of price-tag, there´s no need for a RS6. An A3 will do.

[Trantor]

At the same time, HMS Vanguard would be a far superior comparison to the KM Bismarck than USS Iowa.

She wasn´t commisioned until the war was over, 5 years after Bismarcks sinking.

And her mainguns were 30 years old, sez´ the internets.