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[Voitan]

My impression is that Humanity is not necessarily a stronger psychic species than the Loroi, but incompatible to the way Loroi psychic ability can percieve thinking life.

As for the comment about "old stories", while Jardin mentioned in reply to Beryl's question if Humanity is psychic also, she repeated that phrase at the mural.

The mural, for whatever reason to me, seemed like some old Earth art peice depicting a Fair Folk being awesome and terrible.

Funny thing about the stories of Fair Folk, is that they also double as good alien abduction stories.

As for there being evidence of structures from the Soia, or stories, well, how about the Ancient Astronaught idea?

[Mayhem]

Perhaps the Soia where technically brilliant but artistically weak so just copied useful structures from around them.

Are sculptors artistically weak for copying the human form instead of making up their own?

I said perhaps.

I was trying to speculate wildly, drawing a blank and projecting my own issues.
I am terrible at designing software UIs but if you can tell me (in detail) what you want or point to examples I can build them.

My favourite explanation so far is

"Oooh, mommy mommy, look at those things down on that planet, can I have one pretty please?!? I wanna take some home mommy!"

"Sweetie pumpkin, it'll cost too much to feed one of those, how about I make you one that looks just like it though? I know your favorite color is blue..."

"Yay!"

I think it more likely was a demonstration of technical ability. They could have gotten a "good enough" body structure by modifying existing Soia-Liron organisms to vaguely human shape and proportions, but they instead took the time to replicate our structure in great detail, something much more difficult than just copying the overall form.

Ego works as an explanation.

Overall I agree that just because we don't know their reason, doesn't mean there wasn't one that made their actions rational to themselves.

[Ktrain]

But in all seriousness, what is the source of your physical superiority claim Mjolnir, because I don't see anything specifically referencing this in the Insider.

Discussion on the old forums...can't find it and it may have been lost in one of the forum purges. Anyway, the Loroi have been engineered to have lower body temperature with human-equivalent high temperature tolerance and more efficient metabolisms. I seem to recall it being mentioned that Loroi are about on par with humans in raw strength despite their smaller average size, but even if their makers for some reason didn't make any raw strength enhancements while doing all the rest, just the more efficient metabolism and wider temperature range would help.

I will concede that it is likely that the average Loroi is better conditioned than the average Terran, and I do not see canonical evidence from inherent differences in biologically/naturally based strength. The other two points you make are readily supported within the Insider documentation and thus are valid. Since both Loroi and Humans share similar frames, I doubt there would be much difference in base physical strength. Loroi warriors have what seem to be elongated feminine muscles rather than shorter ones which are associated with strength. I think what we need to ascertain an answer is a picture of Fireblade flexing in the nude and since we have Alex as a comparison we might be able to elaborate on strength differentials.

[fredgiblet]

But in all seriousness, what is the source of your physical superiority claim Mjolnir, because I don't see anything specifically referencing this in the Insider.

The Loroi template in GURPS has +1 Health

[discord]

to be honest, early maturation is a much more 'powerful' racial trait.

and on the subject of 'generations' it is more a question of how fast the turn around on breeding is, on average you can expect a human female to be pregnant at around 20(more like 15 for biological capacity, add some for social and other limiting factors), and so i dub a human generation to be the time it on average takes to spawn the 'next generation', which is about 20 years BUT humans cant take care of themselves as young, so lets add another 10 years as 'child rearing', for a total of thirty years long 'generation'.
loroi are fully adult(biologically) at the age of 9, which also happens to be the time for 'initiation rites' which often? includes mating....again taking into account nursing, the loroi generational turn around is well under 15 years.

and yes, i was referring to outward appearance when comparing different members of the homo genus.

[Arioch]

Loroi aren't any physically stronger than a human of the same size and weight.

[Mjolnir]

Loroi aren't any physically stronger than a human of the same size and weight.

I stand corrected, then. I thought they were somewhat stronger, enough that humankind's relative bulk made us about equal. It does seem a curious omission, though. I'd expect their lower resting temperature and wider tolerable temperature range, plus the "more efficient" biology to give them a good edge in endurance, at least. Or does the efficiency come with hidden costs that counter that?

Re: dex drako's suggestion that we're a "newer model" of Loroi:
We're still talking about switching from an engineered biochemistry so optimized, highly flexible and controllable that several intelligent species have been built from the ground up with it, to a completely wild one, and an end product that is so minimally changed from its base species that the changes are unrecognizable as being artificial or foreign to its ecosystem. Said product is generally on par with or a downgrade from the Loroi. We can't even tell we have those hypothetical next-generation telepathic talents, while all of Loroi society is structured around their own telepathic abilities.

And this still fails to explain the physical similarity. Even gorillas have too much in common with Loroi to be explained by chance. Or are they just the next upgrade after us? Such powerful telepaths that even we can't read their minds. Too bad about their communications being restricted to gestures and severely limited vocalizations, and their poor linguistic/tool using abilities.

[icekatze]

hi hi

If humans were made in the Loroi's image, as opposed to the seemingly more likely reverse, one possible explanation is this: The Soia, knowing their demise was approaching, began to engineer their various races into the native biology of random planets within their borders in order to escape detection by whatever approaching evil was threatening their extinction. Intended to be something of a dragon's teeth gambit, they were unfortunately unable to finish with the final details before they disappeared.

[Arioch]

Lower body temperature and high metabolic efficiency certainly does imply better endurance. Physical strength and endurance are the same stat (ST) in GURPS, but they're not the same thing in the real world. I have a female friend who runs/bikes/swims mini-triathlons, but she's five-foot-nothing and won't be impressing anyone with her physical strength.

[NOMAD]

hi hi

If humans were made in the Loroi's image, as opposed to the seemingly more likely reverse, one possible explanation is this: The Soia, knowing their demise was approaching, began to engineer their various races into the native biology of random planets within their borders in order to escape detection by whatever approaching evil was threatening their extinction. Intended to be something of a dragon's teeth gambit, they were unfortunately unable to finish with the final details before they disappeared.

Good though, reminds me of Assassin creed storyline ( i know another game refence , its how my mind works so :p and its the same as above except for the end )

Yet could not the opposite be true as well:

the Soia found the various races that would come under their control within their expanding empire, moved the affected species; in order to allow their inner boarders to be peaceful, while preventing saber rattling and interspecies conflicts. I looked at the loroi timeline and found this

Soia Empire displaces Dreiman and Delrias/Morat remnants. The Soia strictly limit interstellar travel, but allow carefully regulated trade, and the technology and cultures of local races flourish. From Insider

To me the Soia seem to be a very controlling people, yet did so to retain peaceful boarders and inner harmony. However, I don't believe they would alter the race under their care in order to survive the fall of their civilization (the offending race might go to war with the Soia over that kind of manipulation). Granted, The Soia were the most advanced race in comparison to the others, yet if benign, why try to alter the race for their own uses/purposes if it would cuase conflict.

[fredgiblet]

Physical strength and endurance are the same stat (ST) in GURPS, but they're not the same thing in the real world.

Depending on which edition you're using. 4E switches endurance to HT and hit points to ST.

[Arioch]

Depending on which edition you're using. 4E switches endurance to HT and hit points to ST.

Aside from the obvious fallacy of not having hit points based on HEALTH, it doesn't make sense in game terms either... it makes HT useless except in the few cases where fatigue matters (e.g., spellcasting), and a fighter character need only place points in ST and DX. Very silly.

Guessing the SJGames folks said to themselves, "Well, this game is pretty mature and complete. Let's just start changing shit at random to try to get them to buy a 'new' edition. Roll a D6."

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Lets look at what we know.

1.Loroi and Humans share uncanny physical similarity
2.Humans display an unusually strong natural resistance to Loroi mind scanning/detection
3.Human hominid ancestors predate the earliest recorded presence of the Loroi
4.There is no evidence of Soia settlement on the planet earth

To me this suggests to me that a Soia scout expedition came across earth hundreds of thousands of years ago, and collected samples of human like Hominids. These were then ferried off to Soia space for study. The Soia then discover that some aspect of whatever hominid they retrieved makes them a viable candidate for genetic engineering to produce psionic traits. Using these hominids as a template (though not necessarily using their actual DNA), the Soia created the Loroi.

I personally find it to much of a coincidence for the Soia to have apparently modeled the Loroi after humanoid hominids, AND for modern man to bear such an unusually strong resistance to Loroi telepathy. And I don't believe it was something engineered into humans after the Loroi were made, based on the fact that there's no evidence of a Soia presence on earth, and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.

[discord]

arioch: actually the HT/ST shift for HP and fatigue kinda makes sense, as in you can argue it both ways.
the problem is that more logically BOTH HP and fatigue should come in under ST, but game mechanic balancing would not allow that.
and why do i say that? big strong men generally can take a LOT more bashing damage compared to the not big, not strong men, basically just soak damage...actually it would probably be better with some sort of bashing damage absorb, since being strong does not help significantly with piercing or cutting damage.
ST is about physical conditioning, so Fatigue could very well be under that too.
and HT is about handling disease, and other 'long term' problems, like aging, healing and recovery....you could put fatigue here, but HP does not quite fit in(imho).

bottom line, game mechanics demand one in each for balancing, and fatigue is more at home in HT imho, while HP could go either side, so ST it is.

<edit>
although a 'reduced consumption' would nicely show the loroi 'improved metabolism', not sure about a good game term for the higher degree of temperature tolerance would be though, it should be around though.
</edit>

[Sprawl63]

I would think that a lower body temperature would give them a harder time in warmer (tropical or desert) environments. A lower body temperature means that would have to shed heat more quickly, which means they might become exhausted or dehydrated more quickly then humans. Take Alex's experience for example. Assuming both environments are tailored for the crews, while he might be shivering a bit on a Loroi ship, a Loroi might be sweating a bit on a human ship.

[fredgiblet]

Aside from the obvious fallacy of not having hit points based on HEALTH, it doesn't make sense in game terms either... it makes HT useless except in the few cases where fatigue matters (e.g., spellcasting), and a fighter character need only place points in ST and DX. Very silly.

Guessing the SJGames folks said to themselves, "Well, this game is pretty mature and complete. Let's just start changing shit at random to try to get them to buy a 'new' edition. Roll a D6."

Well as a wise man once said:

Lower body temperature and high metabolic efficiency certainly does imply better endurance. Physical strength and endurance are the same stat (ST) in GURPS, but they're not the same thing in the real world. I have a female friend who runs/bikes/swims mini-triathlons, but she's five-foot-nothing and won't be impressing anyone with her physical strength.

They had two different derived stats (fatigue and Hit Points) neither of which really belong attached to ST. My guess is that they felt they had to have at least one of the attached to ST to make things seem balanced or something like that. I disagree, I think that either Fatigue should have been separated or they both should have been attached to HT, which still wouldn't make it as valuable as ST. But it's easy enough to fix if it bothers you.

[fredgiblet]

ST is about physical conditioning, so Fatigue could very well be under that too.

Not necessarily, if all you do is max lifts to bulk up then you won't be building endurance, building endurance requires cardio.

I would think that a lower body temperature would give them a harder time in warmer (tropical or desert) environments. A lower body temperature means that would have to shed heat more quickly, which means they might become exhausted or dehydrated more quickly then humans. Take Alex's experience for example. Assuming both environments are tailored for the crews, while he might be shivering a bit on a Loroi ship, a Loroi might be sweating a bit on a human ship.

Not at all. You are confusing the base body temperature with the max body temperature, it's perfectly reasonable for them to run at a lower temp but be just as able of surviving a max temp just as high as humans, meaning that they would have a greater ability to withstand high temps as they would have a greater margin between basic running temp and max temp.

[Arioch]

They had two different derived stats (fatigue and Hit Points) neither of which really belong attached to ST. My guess is that they felt they had to have at least one of the attached to ST to make things seem balanced or something like that. I disagree, I think that either Fatigue should have been separated or they both should have been attached to HT, which still wouldn't make it as valuable as ST. But it's easy enough to fix if it bothers you.

I don't disagree with moving fatigue to HT; one option makes as much or as little sense as the other. My argument is that also moving hit points to ST is both totally illogical and doesn't make sense from game balance; as you said, you could put both hit points and fatigue on HT and it would still be the least valuable stat.

Another option is to use calculated values like Move, which is (or was) DX + HT / 2.

This is a purely philosophical argument; I never had any intention of purchasing the new edition of GURPS, and it's very unlikely that I will ever sit down again with a group of in-the-flesh people to play a pen and paper RPG. (But if I did, I would probably be the GM, and so can make up whatever rules I like.)

I would think that a lower body temperature would give them a harder time in warmer (tropical or desert) environments. A lower body temperature means that would have to shed heat more quickly, which means they might become exhausted or dehydrated more quickly then humans. Take Alex's experience for example. Assuming both environments are tailored for the crews, while he might be shivering a bit on a Loroi ship, a Loroi might be sweating a bit on a human ship.

It's a common misconception that "cold-blooded" organisms are less resistant to heat than "warm-blooded" ones, but just the opposite is true: reptiles are much more heat resistant than mammals, and can survive at a wider range of body temperatures.

A mammal has mechanisms to generate internal heat, so that it doesn't have to rely on external heat (like basking in the sun) to raise its body temperature up to optimal operating levels like a reptile does. But this is a double-edged sword, because when the external temperature rises above optimal body temperature, the internal heat can build up and cooling becomes an issue, and the temperature at which overheating starts to cause damage is only about 10 degrees F above optimal temperature. So humans and most mammals have a very narrow operating internal temperature range. A reptile isn't generating any internal heat, and so can survive hotter external temperatures than a mammal can.

But if your biochemistry is more efficient and operates at a lower temperature (and produces less waste heat), then the organism can still regulate its internal temperature like a mammal, but it will have a larger range of safe body temperature, because heat will still damage tissues at around the same temperature as a mammal, but the Soia-Liron organism is generating less internal heat and so is easier to keep cool. So the Soia-Liron organism is more resistant to both heat and cold.

although a 'reduced consumption' would nicely show the loroi 'improved metabolism', not sure about a good game term for the higher degree of temperature tolerance would be though, it should be around though.

GURPS does have Increased G-Tolerance, Decreased Life Support, and Temperature Tolerance advantages. You could also throw in Extended Lifespan if you wanted to be really accurate. GURPS also lets you buy fatigue separate from its base stat. I didn't include these because they're arbitrarily expensive -- 45 points for the lot -- and don't really offer any meaningful advantages to an individual character for that cost.

[discord]

arioch: i was just nitpicking there, i like filling in the details, making it accurate, and is it that strange that loroi have a higher racial template 'cost' compared to humans? they are equal or better across the scale...they even have the superior ego to go with it. *grin*

the devil is in the details, as the story goes.

[Mjolnir]

I personally find it to much of a coincidence for the Soia to have apparently modeled the Loroi after humanoid hominids, AND for modern man to bear such an unusually strong resistance to Loroi telepathy. And I don't believe it was something engineered into humans after the Loroi were made, based on the fact that there's no evidence of a Soia presence on earth, and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.

I don't think it's that much of a coincidence. Most other local species appear reasonably readable, enough so that Alex was first thought to be actively blocking, the Soia eventually engineered at least one telepathic species, presumably not reaching such a high level of development by accident, and the Golim are so easily influenced that they're overwhelmed by the presence of a Loroi. Perhaps the Soia themselves had more primitive abilities, noticed that humans had almost no telepathic presence, and chose to use their latest bioengineering project in progress to tinker with brain structures to learn more about psi talents (maybe our lack of ability/presence shook some basic assumptions in their understanding of psi, maybe it just got them wondering). Humans are just unusually un-telepathic, and the Loroi are unusually telepathic because they were a work in progress at a time when the Soia were experimenting with telepathy.

The Neridi didn't like the tall, hairy newcomers getting such an upgrade, and started a revolt that destroyed the empire.