Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

[jonwassing]

Is there anything humans are particularily better at or have an edge on the Loroi in this universe; like Hand-to-hand combat or direct infantry engagement, perhaps? Or is this just a kind of "stay down space monkeys, and revel in our mary-sueness" kind of sci fi outing? No judgements, just wanted to know.

[Arioch]

Is there anything humans are particularily better at or have an edge on the Loroi in this universe; like Hand-to-hand combat or direct infantry engagement, perhaps? Or is this just a kind of "stay down space monkeys, and revel in our mary-sueness" kind of sci fi outing? No judgements, just wanted to know.

It's weird that people think that Humanity has to have some special kind of racial advantage for a Human character to be a hero.

[jonwassing]

Wasn't really what I was going for, but OK, no edge. That's fine.
My point was more like "do we really have anything to offer the Loroi in our alliance, or are we just here for the ride?"

[Arioch]

While I don't mean to compare my story to Lord of the Rings, it is similar in the sense that the question "what do hobbits have to offer to the alliance of free peoples against Sauron?" cannot be answered without telling how the story ends.

[jonwassing]

While I don't mean to compare my story to Lord of the Rings, it is similar in the sense that the question "what do hobbits have to offer to the alliance of free peoples against Sauron?" cannot be answered without telling how the story ends.

If we never compare our stories to the literary greats, how would we replicate thier success? I think it's fine to do that, only a jerk would ever point out the differences. Your stuff is awesome.

Question asked, question answered IMO.

[jterlecki]

This is more about 'ancient' history of humans in your universe. We have a lot of legends of witches and sorcerers - humans people with magical powers. Is it possible that these legends are based on humans which might have had an affinity for psionic powers?

[Bamax]

While I don't mean to compare my story to Lord of the Rings, it is similar in the sense that the question "what do hobbits have to offer to the alliance of free peoples against Sauron?" cannot be answered without telling how the story ends.

A cursory look at LOTR lore shows that a hobbit tricked the bad guy...or god...whatever he was/is. Because the villain knew a hobbit had the ring, he just did not know which one.

It was a fatal mistake based on an assumption based on what facts he knew. Never assume....yet it can be all too easy to do if you are desperate and fearful.


Theory of mine: The Umiak ALREADY know about humanity. Because humanity already made contact with them BEFORE Alex was sent. Because they have hidden allies among the allies of the Loroi. Who want the war to end and are promised better treatment by the Umiak if they help them win. Who cares about the Loroi anyway? Bunch of bullies who genocide entire worlds!

Alex ship was destroyed by traitorous Loroi allies working with the rival human faction and the Umiak.

The rival faction was convinced the Umiak would spare Earth for helping them win, and reasoned the Umiak had a far better chance of winning as well. So Alex ship had to be destroyed so that the Umiak did not think humanity was betraying their secret alliance!

Seems quite the coincidence that Alex vessel was blown away without even a response to their hail...because someone expected them to show up. Humans have an immemorial tradition of betraying each other so this is to be expected if there is anything at all to be gained.

Humans are on Umiak ships helping them so Loroi cannot detect them ahead of time.

Once Alex and company manage to capture a Umiak vessel they will be able and on their way to trick and undermine the Umiak even more.


I could be wrong, but the story smells of intrigue to me.

The only use of humans in the war is for the Umiak. The only use Alex is to the Loroi is to pretend he is a human agent working for the Umiak. Easily done if original human is killed off or captured.

[Ithekro]

The hurtles with that theory.

1. Earth's first contact with the Orgus was Halloween, 2158. Alex's ship was destroyed on July 14th, 2160 after being on mission for 58 days.

2. The mission has been in planning for at least six month prior to the five ships leaving Earth space. Four scouts and a long range transport that stayed several jumps back as a relay point outside the suspected combat region.

3. The only possible point of contact with the Umaik are the Orgus, who had had not contact with the Loroi.

4. So between First Contact and the Bellarmine Incident, there are less than 21 months.

5. Earth only has ten scouting ships that might have the range for a contact mission. Four are on said missing for the most two months, most of that time getting to the conflict area. Four are combat variants that might have sacrificed the range for more weapons. The last two are being modified to combat specifications.

[gaerzi]

Humans are on Umiak ships helping them so Loroi cannot detect them ahead of time.

So the human trait of not being detectable by loroi telepathy would not just apply to the humans, but also to the entire ship and crew they're traveling with? I think we'd have been told it if the Loroi could no longer detect each other after taking Alex on board...

[Bamax]

Humans are on Umiak ships helping them so Loroi cannot detect them ahead of time.

So the human trait of not being detectable by loroi telepathy would not just apply to the humans, but also to the entire ship and crew they're traveling with? I think we'd have been told it if the Loroi could no longer detect each other after taking Alex on board...

Loroi use Farseers to detect intelligent life INSTANTLY at ranges that would require FTL. They do it in real-time.

They can detect ships with normal speed of light delay sensors regardless if in range.

Basically if you put humans on a Umiak ship with no Umiak, Loroi cannnot detect it at FTL ranges beyond their sensor range.

It is also possible that the Umiak figured out why humans are immune and artificially created a device that mimics the human shielding against Farseers.

Remember this is not a cloak. It is a cloak against real-time life detectiom beyond lightspeed sensor range.

[jterlecki]

It's weird that people think that Humanity has to have some special kind of racial advantage for a Human character to be a hero.

I think why people keep asking this is because they want to validate that 'humans' are worthy and as a whole, and that they can make a difference. As it stands, from the perception of some individuals (based on their comments) - humans are by far technologically inferior - to the point they would actually become a liability if allied with the Loroi.

I think that humans may have a small edge in creativity - resulting in humans approaching problems in ways that the loroi find unconventional at times. This could translate to some extent thing subjects like engineering and tactics. It is important to make a distinction between knowledge of science and technical capabilities. Our current technical capabilities are far behind our understanding of science as far as I know (though I may be wrong).

[Arioch]

So the human trait of not being detectable by loroi telepathy would not just apply to the humans, but also to the entire ship and crew they're traveling with? I think we'd have been told it if the Loroi could no longer detect each other after taking Alex on board...

I think someone misinterpreted what Beryl was saying about Alex being a telepathic insulator. She meant that if two Loroi slept touching, that would create an especially strong telepathic link, but if Alex were to sleep in between them, with both of them touching Alex but not each other, then that would not create the strong link.

It's weird that people think that Humanity has to have some special kind of racial advantage for a Human character to be a hero.

I think why people keep asking this is because they want to validate that 'humans' are worthy and as a whole, and that they can make a difference. As it stands, from the perception of some individuals (based on their comments) - humans are by far technologically inferior - to the point they would actually become a liability if allied with the Loroi.

I get that, I just think it's weird when people get salty about it, as if it was some kind of personal insult. For both Outsider and for Stars in Shadow (in which the Human faction starts out homeless), I've received some downright angry comments, either that the Loroi are "Mary Sues," or that I'm somehow misanthropic because I dared to depict humanity as anything other than Top Dog. The Loroi aren't "better at everything" than humans; it's not humanity's fault that we didn't have "Learn Precursor Tech in Four Easy Steps" manuals lying everywhere like the rest of the interstellar community did. It's kind of Fiction 101: if your protagonist doesn't start at some kind of disadvantage and has significant obstacles to overcome, it's probably not going to be much of a story.

I think maybe part of it is because (understandably) many people look at Outsider as if it was an RPG or strategy game setting ("Loroi are OP!"), and partly because popular Scifi has spoonfed everyone settings like Star Trek, Babylon 5 and Stargate in which Humanity is not the most technically advanced, yet somehow we're always in charge of everything, our enemies have better technology than we do but are somehow really stupid, and those ultra-tech aliens who occasionally drop by to pat us on the head and humble us never seem to be around when the galaxy is in trouble.

[Mango Mel]

Just wanted to make a couple quick comments, Arioch:

I've received some downright angry comments, either that the Loroi are "Mary Sues,"

My question to those comments: if Loroi are "Mary Sues" then why does it appear that they're on the losing side of the war? I'm saying that because of the current situation the characters find themselves in (current system being overrun) and something that Tempo said at https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider109.html (granted, she's a mizol; could be leaving out information in this regard, for all Alex knows). While the Loroi have some advantages, the Umiak getting past their Farsensing (or taking advantage of it not working for whatever reason) is pretty crippling for them. I imagine that if the Umiak lost one of their key advantages (fast ship production with the resources to support it), it would be equally crippling.

The Loroi aren't "better at everything" than humans; it's not humanity's fault that we didn't have "Learn Precursor Tech in Four Easy Steps" manuals lying everywhere like the rest of the interstellar community did.

Considering how far the humans have come in your story tech-wise, I think that's pretty impressive. I mean, they're still sitting ducks if they pick the wrong side, but... hey, maybe that's the racial advantage for humans! "They sure do try real hard with what they got."

I think maybe part of it is because (understandably) many people look at Outsider as if it was an RPG or strategy game setting ("Loroi are OP!")

Well, to be fair, you did throw together some character sheets and stats for some of the cast, and the loroi were (at least partly) inspired by a race from Master of Orion, so I can see why some would jump on board that ship. I was actually hoping they would be in Stars In Shadow when I picked it up a while back.

I think the reason why people read Outsider and you've got a decent Patreon thing going is because it's different than what a lot of us have read/seen in games, and to boot it has an interesting story. Here's hoping humanity doesn't side with the Umiak while Alex is trying to stay alive in Loroi territory! That'd make him a REAL outsider!

[gaerzi]

Basically if you put humans on a Umiak ship with no Umiak, Loroi cannnot detect it at FTL ranges beyond their sensor range.

Yeah, but then you get a umiak ship with no umiak on-board...

How would humans maintain a umiak ship when they don't know anything about the technology?

And why should humans fight for the umiaks? Using umiak strategy of going for waves of ships to overwhelm the enemy with numbers even if you get a very disfavorable kill/death ratio? Why would humans actually proceed with fighting for the bug people using suicidal strategies?

If you start thinking of ways that can bypass this, such as using cyber measures to control the humans, you basically arrive at the same result as if using robots to begin with, which would be so much simpler if it were actually possible.

And I did mention "detect using loroi telepathy" because obviously they have normal technology-based sensors. I was referring to this scene where Tempo says that Alex is undetectable even inside the Loroi ship. (Yeah yeah they can still see him normally, don't feel the need to point this out, I'm still talking specifically about their telepathy whenever I say "detecting".)

Now here's another thing about the "humans in umiak ships" theory. The umiak leader they call The Stray was present at the battle, and he wasn't detected either, which allowed the umiaks to get the drop on the loroi. So the theory for humans onboard umiak ship requires indeed either that humans can mask other people too, or that The Stray is actually a human. Because he's onboard his ship and he wasn't detected.

[Jagged]

"what do hobbits have to offer to the alliance of free peoples against Sauron?"

Resistance to the inluence of the ring and the ability to make people forget about giant eagles.

[Mithramuse]

"what do hobbits have to offer to the alliance of free peoples against Sauron?"

Resistance to the inluence of the ring and the ability to make people forget about giant eagles.

"Raptors of Unusual Size? I don't believe they exist."

[kfcroc18]

Hi, I was reading the in insider on Humanity when it said that all worlds that Humanity colonized orbit G-class stars, then it talked about a colony around Alpha Centauri B. Alpha Centauri B is not a G-class star but a K-class star. A very small diff, if at all.


Did not if you know.

[GeoModder]

Hi, I was reading the in insider on Humanity when it said that all worlds that Humanity colonized orbit G-class stars, then it talked about a colony around Alpha Centauri B. Alpha Centauri B is not a G-class star but a K-class star. A very small diff, if at all.


Did not if you know.

Assuming you meant the following paragraph:

The Worlds of Humanity
The "Six Worlds of Humanity" mentioned by Alex are Earth, Mars, Alpha ("First"), Proxima ("Near"), Aldea ("Village") and Esperanza ("Hope"). Humanity first began settlement of Mars around 2050, and developed the first working hyperspace jump drive in 2086. At the turn of the 22nd Century, Humanity began to establish extrasolar colonies in the Alpha Centauri and Tau Ceti star systems, and later at the 82 Eridani system. All four of the human-inhabited systems are yellow G-type stars.

Alpha Centauri is a binary star system, and the main star is a yellow G-type star. Even if Proxima orbits the second sun in the system.

[jterlecki]

In regards to the tech level difference between humanity and loroi/umiak - some of it is because we understand the theoretical science behind it but we don't have the technical capability of making use of said science and the other part would likely be due to yet to be discovered science that is unknown to us.

How much would you quantify being part of science we believe we understand but lack the tools to use? Also, if unaided by the Loroi/Umiak - what would be the next major breakthrough for Terrans in terms of science/tech?

[Arioch]

In regards to the tech level difference between humanity and loroi/umiak - some of it is because we understand the theoretical science behind it but we don't have the technical capability of making use of said science and the other part would likely be due to yet to be discovered science that is unknown to us.

How much would you quantify being part of science we believe we understand but lack the tools to use? Also, if unaided by the Loroi/Umiak - what would be the next major breakthrough for Terrans in terms of science/tech?

Technology is to a large extent about infrastructure. Science can understand how a system works for many, many decades before engineers find practical applications. You first have to build the tools that make the tools, etc.

I like to use the example of Leonardo da Vinci and his designs for helicopters and tanks... they wouldn't work, not because he didn't understand the principles of aeronautics, but rather because 15th century materials science couldn't produce materials that were light and strong enough, and the primitive steam engines of the time were not yet powerful or lightweight enough. If Leonardo had been handed plans for a Huey, nobody would have been able to build it.

Similarly, if one of the major combatants were to hand humanity all their plans for starships and weaponry tomorrow, it would be years or perhaps decades before human industry could begin producing comparable systems. Entirely new factories and industrial techniques would have to be worked out, built, and tested.

"It's relatively easy to make a prototype but extremely difficult to mass manufacture a vehicle reliably at scale. Even for rocket science, it's probably a factor of 10 harder to design a manufacturing system for a rocket than to design the rocket." - Elon Musk