The "Real Aerospace" Thread

[Mjolnir]

Yeah, their lineup of partnerships was clearly designed to get political support on their side, and the usual Congresscritters are already complaining about the award (Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson complaining they didn't wait for "Ballast" Nelson to get in place as administrator first, as if it wasn't Lueders' job and responsibility to make the decision). Some of the other problems with Blue Origin's proposal, like asking for advance payments that were specifically not allowed and proposing more restrictive licensing and sharing of IP than the request required, make me wonder if they overestimated the political clout they had.

I watched Scott Manley's video on the subject, and apparently according to the internal documents it just boiled down to cost. Congress had limited the budget for Artemis to one-third of what NASA asked for, and SpaceX was the only one of the three that could deliver a proposal at that price, never mind that the system delivered at that cost has like ten times the capability of either competitor. Unless Congress is willing to fork over another ten billion dollars, I don't think complaining about it will do them any good.

From SpaceX's point of view, it's about as big a win as one can get... to have NASA pay you almost 3 billion dollars for something you were doing on your own anyway.

So... I'm wondering what NASA will do when Starship beats SLS/Orion to the Moon.

Well, at present they still plan on having SLS/Orion deliver people out to NRHO (because that's as far as the overweight little Orion capsule can go) and transfer them to the HLS Starship for the actual landing. Two of them, at least, leaving two in the Orion to soak up the cislunar rads and make sure it doesn't go anywhere. They did mention they're reevaluating aspects of the mission.

It looks even worse if in the future if they want to reuse the HLS Starship, because they'll have to send out another supply Starship or two to supply propellant, transfer other supplies, etc. These can be standard Starships with flaps and heat shields that can come back to Earth afterward. They could certainly carry crew as well...or Dragons as crew return vehicles if they still don't trust Starship for returning crew at that point.

[Arioch]

Congratulations to SpaceX for a successful flight and landing of Starship SN15.

[Dan Wyatt]

Congratulations to SpaceX for a successful flight and landing of Starship SN15.

Did it catch fire near the base/landing gear area?

[Arioch]

Did it catch fire near the base/landing gear area?

Yes, it looked like there was some kind of insulation/blanket that tore loose and caught fire, and it sounded like one or two of the small compressed air tanks in the skirt ruptured, but the fire was put out and the ship survived.

On another subject,

interesting tidbit about warp drives at the end of this video (which is itself about alien sightings).
https://youtu.be/3sq658Okvao?t=939

It's actually in the Q&A at the end, asking about collisions with objects while traveling in a warp bubble.

According to the math, anything you collided with while traveling in the warp bubble would be frozen in time at the leading edge of a bubble, like an object falling toward the event horizon of a black hole. This means that the ship inside the bubble is safe, but it also means that any matter so trapped would be released the moment the bubble is collapsed.

Which implies that even random gas and dust collected while traveling would be released as a potentially very dangerous beam. So, as the host points out, it would be "impolite" to come out of warp directly pointing at your destination.

[dragoongfa]

Useful during a war but really bad for anything else.

[Ithekro]

So navigation deflectors are not for protecting your ship, but to protect others from your ship later.

[kyosanim]

Did it catch fire near the base/landing gear area?

Yes, it looked like there was some kind of insulation/blanket that tore loose and caught fire, and it sounded like one or two of the small compressed air tanks in the skirt ruptured, but the fire was put out and the ship survived.

On another subject,

interesting tidbit about warp drives at the end of this video (which is itself about alien sightings).
https://youtu.be/3sq658Okvao?t=939

It's actually in the Q&A at the end, asking about collisions with objects while traveling in a warp bubble.

According to the math, anything you collided with while traveling in the warp bubble would be frozen in time at the leading edge of a bubble, like an object falling toward the event horizon of a black hole. This means that the ship inside the bubble is safe, but it also means that any matter so trapped would be released the moment the bubble is collapsed.

Which implies that even random gas and dust collected while traveling would be released as a potentially very dangerous beam. So, as the host points out, it would be "impolite" to come out of warp directly pointing at your destination.

I saw that pbs video yesterday, basically any warp capable spaceship would be a Death Star. It would be almost impossible to defend a planet from anyone bend on destroying it.

[Dan Wyatt]

Did it catch fire near the base/landing gear area?

Yes, it looked like there was some kind of insulation/blanket that tore loose and caught fire, and it sounded like one or two of the small compressed air tanks in the skirt ruptured, but the fire was put out and the ship survived.

On another subject,

interesting tidbit about warp drives at the end of this video (which is itself about alien sightings).
https://youtu.be/3sq658Okvao?t=939

It's actually in the Q&A at the end, asking about collisions with objects while traveling in a warp bubble.

According to the math, anything you collided with while traveling in the warp bubble would be frozen in time at the leading edge of a bubble, like an object falling toward the event horizon of a black hole. This means that the ship inside the bubble is safe, but it also means that any matter so trapped would be released the moment the bubble is collapsed.

Which implies that even random gas and dust collected while traveling would be released as a potentially very dangerous beam. So, as the host points out, it would be "impolite" to come out of warp directly pointing at your destination.

I think that's why FTL ships would need to get to a specific jump point outside the outer solsys or the Oort clouds, like they do in 40K. They particle/Gas density would be extremely low outside the heliopause.

[Mjolnir]

Boeing's second attempt at the Starliner flight demo was postponed when the Nauka module malfunctioned a couple hours after docking to the ISS, uncontrollably firing its thrusters and flipping the station 1.5 times around the pitch axis. Per Zebulon Scoville (NASA Flight Director), "We proceeded to do headstands and cartwheels. Olympic judges would be proud."

Then it was postponed again Tuesday when they found that half the valves in the service module's propulsion system were reporting incorrect positions. This time, it doesn't appear to be a software problem. So, uh, good thing it was still on the ground. Lucky Boeing?

Meanwhile, it's not ready to fly yet, but SpaceX has constructed most of a launch mount and integration tower, and stacked a flight prototype booster with an orbital prototype Starship, both with full sets of engines fitted:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/142 ... 09893?s=21
https://twitter.com/spacex/status/14237 ... 40385?s=21

[Arioch]

Lucky Boeing?

I know what you mean, but I doubt Being is feeling very lucky lately. If it's not 737 Max, it's Starliner... and I just learned that Boeing's 737-based KC-46 tanker is having all kinds of problems. I'm genuinely very sorry to see America's last civil aerospace company in this state... I'm not very happy about the concept of the DOD having to buy aircraft from the French. But this is what happens when you get fat.

Meanwhile, it's not ready to fly yet, but SpaceX has constructed most of a launch mount and integration tower, and stacked a flight prototype booster with an orbital prototype Starship, both with full sets of engines fitted:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/142 ... 09893?s=21
https://twitter.com/spacex/status/14237 ... 40385?s=21

I give even odds that SpaceX flies Starship to orbit before Starliner makes it to the ISS. I'll give five to one that Starship orbits before Starliner flies a passenger.

That's pretty sad, considering that NASA paid Boeing twice as much for Starliner as they paid SpaceX for Crew Dragon.

[GeoModder]

Lucky Boeing?

I know what you mean, but I doubt Being is feeling very lucky lately. If it's not 737 Max, it's Starliner... and I just learned that Boeing's 737-based KC-46 tanker is having all kinds of problems. I'm genuinely very sorry to see America's last civil aerospace company in this state... I'm not very happy about the concept of the DOD having to buy aircraft from the French. But this is what happens when you get fat.

What's wrong with buying into a foreign jet aircraft design? Basically, the US Marine Corps (which can be considered an elite unit) used a redesign of a British jet aircraft for several decades (the Harrier) now.

[Arioch]

What's wrong with buying into a foreign jet aircraft design? Basically, the US Marine Corps (which can be considered an elite unit) used a redesign of a British jet aircraft for several decades (the Harrier) now.

Because if relations with that nation sour, your military may be screwed.

It doesn't matter who designed it; it's who builds it. The Marine AV-8B is built by Boeing.

France frequently ends up on the other side of arguments with the US.

[Mjolnir]

Lucky Boeing?

I know what you mean, but I doubt Being is feeling very lucky lately. If it's not 737 Max, it's Starliner... and I just learned that Boeing's 737-based KC-46 tanker is having all kinds of problems. I'm genuinely very sorry to see America's last civil aerospace company in this state... I'm not very happy about the concept of the DOD having to buy aircraft from the French. But this is what happens when you get fat.

When the day's good news is that the latest incident isn't going to cost another half billion dollars and two more years to fix...

In the acquisition of McDonnell Douglas, somehow the people who'd run Douglas into the ground managed to get in control of Boeing. They've been systematically dismantling the engineering culture and know-how of the company ever since: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... gs/602188/

And now they can't even keep their products up to date, let alone create new ones.

I give even odds that SpaceX flies Starship to orbit before Starliner makes it to the ISS. I'll give five to one that Starship orbits before Starliner flies a passenger.

That's pretty sad, considering that NASA paid Boeing twice as much for Starliner as they paid SpaceX for Crew Dragon.

Yeah, there's major scheduling issues with Starliner making another attempt any time in the next several months. After SpaceX's next cargo launch later this month, the ISS will have both docking ports occupied by Dragons for two more months, then there's the high-priority Lucy asteroid mission with a limited launch window. And that's assuming they work the valve issue in that time.

SLS has a clock ticking: its boosters were stacked January 7th, and the segment joints are only certified for 1 year after stacking. But...they might waive that requirement. They're already launching an Orion with a partially failed power system, because it'd take a year to replace the failed component. (Lockheed's not been doing all that much better than Boeing lately.)

On Starship's side, the current biggest uncertainty is how long it will take the FAA to make up its mind on the EA/EIS issue, and what their decision will be. Development of the world's biggest rocket powered seems to be a minor side issue.

[GeoModder]

What's wrong with buying into a foreign jet aircraft design? Basically, the US Marine Corps (which can be considered an elite unit) used a redesign of a British jet aircraft for several decades (the Harrier) now.

Because if relations with that nation sour, your military may be screwed.

It doesn't matter who designed it; it's who builds it. The Marine AV-8B is built by Boeing.

France frequently ends up on the other side of arguments with the US.

In a world choked with arms dealers, soured relations aren't necessarily an obstacle for getting stock. Granted, the scale of most militaries isn't that of the US military.
Not that I'm a Francophile, but sometimes it's a good thing there's a more independent ally around the corner.
Also, Israel is wholely dependent on arms deals with the US, but you don't see them holding back much when push comes to shove, despite certain US Administrations admonishing them.

[Krulle]

Lucky Boeing?

I know what you mean, but I doubt Being is feeling very lucky lately. If it's not 737 Max, it's Starliner... and I just learned that Boeing's 737-based KC-46 tanker is having all kinds of problems. I'm genuinely very sorry to see America's last civil aerospace company in this state... I'm not very happy about the concept of the DOD having to buy aircraft from the French. But this is what happens when you get fat.

This is what you get when you exchange engineering management by MBAers.
That was the point where plane development started using shortcuts to meet budgets.
That was the point where safety and budget were balanced against each other.

Before it was SAFETY and FAIL-SAFE.
Now these words are only existing in their PR, but management actually goes by budget decisions only.

And as large a distance between engineering an management as possible.

[edit]Heh, Mjolnir already wrote about this. Should've read to the end before replying[/edit]


I've seen the 737 MAX debacle having been predicted, and hoped it would only be a crying by engineers working mostly for a different company. Alas, it proved to be true.
That guy also predicted the failing of the single pressure sensor becoming an issue.

[Cthulhu]

I've seen the 737 MAX debacle having been predicted, and hoped it would only be a crying by engineers working mostly for a different company. Alas, it proved to be true.

I'm still trying to understand how anyone with quarter a brain could've approved of that design. Sticking oversized engines on an outdated hull and expecting the software to fix the skewed aerodynamic setup?

During MAX flight tests, Boeing discovered that the larger size and position of the engines tended to push the nose up during certain maneuvers. Engineers decided to use an automatic flight control function, MCAS, to counter that tendency, since major structural redesign would have been prohibitively expensive and time-consuming.

That's either lobbying far beyond legality or utter ignorance of any security standards. Probably both, glued together by corporate interests.

MCAS prevents an excessive nose up angle by commanding the horizontal stabilizer to push the nose down before the aircraft would potentially stall. Media reports widely described MCAS as an anti-stall system, but Boeing denied that and said it was intended to improve the handling of the aircraft. Boeing's goal was to have the MAX certified as another 737 version, which would appeal to airlines for the reduced cost of pilot training. The Federal Aviation Administration approved Boeing's request to remove a description of MCAS from the aircraft manual, leaving pilots unaware of the system when the airplane entered service in 2017.

[Cthulhu]

Congratulations to SpaceX for a successful flight and landing of Starship SN15.

Have you ever wondered why the Crew Dragon is so spacious, especially if compared to the Soyuz?

That's because the Dragon 2 was initially designed for 7 seats, but then NASA changed the specifications, forcing SpaceX to reduce that down to just 4.

After SpaceX had already designed the interior layout of the Crew Dragon spacecraft, NASA decided to change the specification for the angle of the ship’s seats due to concerns about the g-forces crew members might experience during splashdown.

The change meant SpaceX had to do away with the company’s original seven-seat design for the Crew Dragon.

“With this change and the angle of the seats, we could not get seven anymore,” Shotwell said. “So now we only have four seats. That was kind of a big change for us.”

Otherwise, the interior would've been just as cramped, because every cubic cm of room on a spaceship is immensely expensive. Hopefully, they can fix that seating problem, perhaps with a new design? Otherwise, it's kind of wasteful.

[Krulle]

I'm still trying to understand how anyone with quarter a brain could've approved of that design. Sticking oversized engines on an outdated hull and expecting the software to fix the skewed aerodynamic setup?

During MAX flight tests, Boeing discovered that the larger size and position of the engines tended to push the nose up during certain maneuvers. Engineers decided to use an automatic flight control function, MCAS, to counter that tendency, since major structural redesign would have been prohibitively expensive and time-consuming.

That's either lobbying far beyond legality or utter ignorance of any security standards. Probably both, glued together by corporate interests.

Engineers within Boeing told management, that the aircraft would not be another 737, and that a hull redesign would be necessary.
Detroit (upper management, bean counters) said no, and pushed the wrong marketing.

Alas, fallout of the problems landed with the engineers, and not with management.

[Cthulhu]

Engineers within Boeing told management, that the aircraft would not be another 737, and that a hull redesign would be necessary.
Detroit (upper management, bean counters) said no, and pushed the wrong marketing.

That's not particularly surprising, the management loves to "optimize" stuff with utter disregard to anything the "spoil-sports" in the engineering dept. tend to say. The biggest issue is the Federal Aviation Administration approving of this deathtrap. Well, if you can buy the politicians by a dozen, why not?

Alas, fallout of the problems landed with the engineers, and not with management.

The real fallout were the dead from the 2 crashes, yet nobody was even persecuted on criminal charges.

[Krulle]

indeed.
The fallout landed on the victims and their families and friends.

The political/economic fallout laded on fired engineers, not on the golden parachuted would-be managers.