Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Snoofman]

…But I can tell you, as a professional storyteller, that the power and meaning in a story has very little to do with whether that story is factually true.

On that note, what does it take to be a professional storyteller, if not a college/university degree and practice practice practice?

[Arioch]

…But I can tell you, as a professional storyteller, that the power and meaning in a story has very little to do with whether that story is factually true.

On that note, what does it take to be a professional storyteller, if not a college/university degree and practice practice practice?

In terms of writing, I think the most important thing is doing it, of course, but also reading a lot. Education is important, but a degree in the arts is probably overkill, and these days university is probably not the most cost-effective form of education. Any fiction writing workshop in which you can have your fiction read and receive critique on it is extremely valuable; community college creative writing courses can be very good for this. For science fiction and other worldbuilding, it's very important to understand how things work, so learning in engineering and other practical professions is both useful both for feeding your mind and your pocketbook, as I don't know how a young person goes about trying to make a living through creative writing these days; fortunately, professional learning doesn't require a degree these days either, thanks to all the online resources available. Understanding the human experience at some intuitive level is key for any kind of storytelling, so living an ordinary human life is also good training. That requires time. I wrote a decent amount at a young age, but I don't think anything I wrote back then would really speak very strongly to anyone, as I didn't really know what I was talking about. I also spent more time planning projects than I did actually writing prose, which I don't recommend, but I did it to feed my soul more than to develop my writing skills. As a human being, your first goal is to make it to the end of the day so you can start a new one.

In terms of the business end of writing, I don't have much practical advice to give, as my path was not very direct or conventional. The anthologies of short fiction that were the normal onramp to a professional writing career mostly don't exist anymore, so I don't really know what the normal path is these days, though books are still published, so there must be some kind of path... I'm sure there are good resources available to research. I think most of you know that I worked for some time as a software engineer, and developed my writing and drawing skills in my spare time as a labor of love. The best thing I did was to involve myself in as many creative communities as I could, to learn and receive feedback and to establish at least some kind of presence among other artists. I don't have any kind of formal art or writing accreditation; I took creative writing courses at university and community college, but I haven't had any format art training beyond grade school. I learned a little bit of art process from my older sister (who graduated with a four-year degree in illustration from the Rhode Island School of Design, and who hasn't worked a day in her life as a professional artist0, but you can learn just as much or more from any online art community.

But yes, the key to creating is doing. I'm not one to give expert advice in that aspect, either.

[Bamax]

…But I can tell you, as a professional storyteller, that the power and meaning in a story has very little to do with whether that story is factually true.

On that note, what does it take to be a professional storyteller, if not a college/university degree and practice practice practice?

In terms of writing, I think the most important thing is doing it, of course, but also reading a lot. Education is important, but a degree in the arts is probably overkill, and these days university is probably not the most cost-effective form of education. Any fiction writing workshop in which you can have your fiction read and receive critique on it is extremely valuable; community college creative writing courses can be very good for this. For science fiction and other worldbuilding, it's very important to understand how things work, so learning in engineering and other practical professions is both useful both for feeding your mind and your pocketbook, as I don't know how a young person goes about trying to make a living through creative writing these days; fortunately, professional learning doesn't require a degree these days either, thanks to all the online resources available. Understanding the human experience at some intuitive level is key for any kind of storytelling, so living an ordinary human life is also good training. That requires time. I wrote a decent amount at a young age, but I don't think anything I wrote back then would really speak very strongly to anyone, as I didn't really know what I was talking about. I also spent more time planning projects than I did actually writing prose, which I don't recommend, but I did it to feed my soul more than to develop my writing skills. As a human being, your first goal is to make it to the end of the day so you can start a new one.

In terms of the business end of writing, I don't have much practical advice to give, as my path was not very direct or conventional. The anthologies of short fiction that were the normal onramp to a professional writing career mostly don't exist anymore, so I don't really know what the normal path is these days, though books are still published, so there must be some kind of path... I'm sure there are good resources available to research. I think most of you know that I worked for some time as a software engineer, and developed my writing and drawing skills in my spare time as a labor of love. The best thing I did was to involve myself in as many creative communities as I could, to learn and receive feedback and to establish at least some kind of presence among other artists. I don't have any kind of formal art or writing accreditation; I took creative writing courses at university and community college, but I haven't had any format art training beyond grade school. I learned a little bit of art process from my older sister (who graduated with a four-year degree in illustration from the Rhode Island School of Design, and who hasn't worked a day in her life as a professional artist0, but you can learn just as much or more from any online art community.

But yes, the key to creating is doing. I'm not one to give expert advice in that aspect, either.

Practice makes perfect.

I think what a successful writer needs are three things.

1. Education: Obviously getting a book (a good one not that For Dummies junk) or taking a writing course will educate... since writing to entertain is a whole lot different than writing a journal or an essay.

2. Making The Time: To create you must take time from other things.Even things you may like. I guarantee you if George Lucas spent all his free time watching Star Trek then Star Wars would have never been made.

3. Love It: You must love what you are creating more than the other things you could be doing instead. If so, you will make the time and the love for your work will show in the finished product.

Exceptions: Obviously I do not advocate extremes... like literally sacrificing one's life for art or someone elses. Because life itself is the spark that starts art. Life and lives matter more.

Granted, I am aware some artists in poor health my do this on their way out... simply to leave something behind of note (the ending of Amadeus).

[Zorg56]

I guess, loroi dont really like grenades as a weapon?

[Keklas Rekobah]

I guess, loroi dont really like grenades as a weapon?

Didja ever play tennis?  Imagine two teidar vollying a live grenade back and forth . . .

[Arioch]

If you're looking for a book on writing, I can recommend How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy by Orson Scott Card.

I guess, loroi dont really like grenades as a weapon?

I don't see why not, in the appropriate circumstances. Fighting aboard ship is probably not one of those.

[Keklas Rekobah]

A single grenade would probably not be effective against an alert teidar, but a Macross  Missile  Grenade Massacre just might succeed.

[spacewhale]

Not sure you'd want to wear a bunch of grenades on your chest fighting telekinetics, just think of Magneto pulling grenade pins, presumably any future tech grenades would still rely on some sort of manual manipulation to activate.

You'd probably want to remain directly out of line of sight, so something like a Hornet mine, except for anti-personnel use, would work. In that case it's just a mine that detects a tank, fires a submunition into the air, the submunition orients itself towards the target, and a shaped charge blows up for a top-down attack producing an EFP tantalum slug. No reason you couldn't hand deploy something smaller. The artillery scattered ADAM (area denial anti personnel) mine system had a derivative that just used a single one of its submunitions as a hand deployed mine for use by special forces to slow down pursuing enemy forces, i.e. set little cheese slice shaped mine down, it blasts out a dozen nearly invisible, extremely sensitive wires that can be set off with the smallest amount of force, mine is popped into the air, and blows up in the air for anti personnel effect. And this is just with primitive earthman technology.

[Snoofman]

@Aroich thanks for the advice dude.

Time for a new random question: are there dwarf loroi? If so would love to see an illustration by the hand of God himself.

[Werra]

A single grenade would probably not be effective against an alert teidar, but a Macross  Missile  Grenade Massacre just might succeed.

A shaped charge grenade with a touch fuse seems like a good way to neutralize a Teidar actually. If she sees the grenade coming and sends it back, it explodes. If she doesn't see it coming but has a force field up, the grenade will explode on that. Of course you could also just shoot her if she is in grenade range.

@spacewhale
If the Teidar is close enough to trigger your grenades, why wouldn't she just scramble your brains?

[spacewhale]

If the Teidar is close enough to trigger your grenades, why wouldn't she just scramble your brains?

The thing about mines is you can place them in advance, and out of line of sight. They are indiscriminate and aren't particularly interesting as a weapon in a comic, though. The whole point to the hand dropped variant ADAM mine is just to slow an enemy chasing you down, and I figure if you're dealing with someone who can literally stop anything moving slowly with their mind, you'd probably want to project molten metal at velocities far too fast to mentally process, thus you'd want something different from a hand thrown grenade. Everything depends on circumstances, though, I mean, if you're in a wide open area you could just avoid it, remotely trigger it, or use TK to fly over them.

[Arioch]

@Aroich thanks for the advice dude.

Time for a new random question: are there dwarf loroi? If so would love to see an illustration by the hand of God himself.

In such a large and diverse population you never want to say "never," but with ultra-tech medicine, fetuses with genetic defects aren't brought to term except deliberately, and in a martial society I think that's unlikely.

[Bamax]

@Aroich thanks for the advice dude.

Time for a new random question: are there dwarf loroi? If so would love to see an illustration by the hand of God himself.

In such a large and diverse population you never want to say "never," but with ultra-tech medicine, fetuses with genetic defects aren't brought to term except deliberately, and in a martial society I think that's unlikely.

So basically the Loroi could in theory go 'Brave New World' or 'Gattaca' if they wanted to.

But since they seem to not want to do that, I guess that leaves the Umiak... who are likely very much into that

[Arioch]

So basically the Loroi could in theory go 'Brave New World' or 'Gattaca' if they wanted to.

Even today's medicine can detect most forms of human dwarfism in utero with genetic tests.

But, I mean... the Loroi ancestors essentially were 'Brave New World.' Another reason that those kinds of mutations are unlikely in Loroi is because their genome has been artificially cleaned up; a lot of the junk code has been removed. Natural mutations have crept in over the last 200 thousand years or so, but there are none prior to that point. This is one of reasons why they can't use the usual 'molecular clock' techniques to try to deduce more about this history of Soia-Liron organisms, since the mutations used as markers disappear prior to the Soia collapse. Another is that the various Soia-Liron organisms don't appear to share a recent common ancestor, as it doesn't seem that they're closely related to each other, except for their basal low-level biological systems, and without mutation markers to date those genes, it's difficult to say whether those basal genes are extremely ancient or fairly recent.

[White]

So basically the Loroi could in theory go 'Brave New World' or 'Gattaca' if they wanted to.

Even today's medicine can detect most forms of human dwarfism in utero with genetic tests.

But, I mean... the Loroi ancestors essentially were 'Brave New World.' Another reason that those kinds of mutations are unlikely in Loroi is because their genome has been artificially cleaned up; a lot of the junk code has been removed. Natural mutations have crept in over the last 200 thousand years or so, but there are none prior to that point. This is one of reasons why they can't use the usual 'molecular clock' techniques to try to deduce more about this history of Soia-Liron organisms, since the mutations used as markers disappear prior to the Soia collapse. Another is that the various Soia-Liron organisms don't appear to share a recent common ancestor, as it doesn't seem that they're closely related to each other, except for their basal low-level biological systems, and without mutation markers to date those genes, it's difficult to say whether those basal genes are extremely ancient or fairly recent.

Hmm... are there pygmy loroi, then?

Also, while we're on the topic, considering the sophistication of Loroi and other alliance members genetic engineering technology, what are their views on creating constructed citizens along the lines of the Umaik.

As in, imagine there was a Loroi or a Pipolsid that was born several centuries ago and was - truly - one in a hundred billion in terms of intelligence. As in, they are the most intelligent being in the alliances recorded history and astounding stories are abound about their casual genius and the ease with which the revolutionized xyz field.

The question would naturally arise... why not clone them? This wouldn't be a population replacement measure, but, if you could have a hundred thousand Einstein's, or a hundred thousand Noethers, or just increase the average intelligence of your population by a standard deviation or two, why wouldn't you? Granted, there may be issues with this. Perhaps intelligence doesn't translate very well or across various fields, and perhaps the influence of single individuals is negligible, but still, it does seem like something that would happen because somebody tried it, if only for an episode.

On a related note, beyond cloning, how is genetic engineering seen, both using natural and constructed genes.

For the Loroi in particular, how is the craft viewed, both in cases to prevent any undesirable traits or to select for preferred ones. And is there a practical limit to how much any particular loroi would want "their" genes to be meddled with in their transition to the next generation?

And, rather than creating a new post in the Umaik thread, I'll just ask here: are such considerations relevant in how the Umaik run their reproduction programs? As in, are all of those attrition runs filled with Umaik Ubermenschen, or are they just selecting for healthy individuals with randomized phenotypes.

[Bamax]

So basically the Loroi could in theory go 'Brave New World' or 'Gattaca' if they wanted to.

Even today's medicine can detect most forms of human dwarfism in utero with genetic tests.

But, I mean... the Loroi ancestors essentially were 'Brave New World.' Another reason that those kinds of mutations are unlikely in Loroi is because their genome has been artificially cleaned up; a lot of the junk code has been removed. Natural mutations have crept in over the last 200 thousand years or so, but there are none prior to that point. This is one of reasons why they can't use the usual 'molecular clock' techniques to try to deduce more about this history of Soia-Liron organisms, since the mutations used as markers disappear prior to the Soia collapse. Another is that the various Soia-Liron organisms don't appear to share a recent common ancestor, as it doesn't seem that they're closely related to each other, except for their basal low-level biological systems, and without mutation markers to date those genes, it's difficult to say whether those basal genes are extremely ancient or fairly recent.

Wow... that's practically spoiler territory I would think.

But I guess not really since you shared it.

I once made a post on another forum regarding 'Brave New World' engineering of new species.

The motive was a seemingly noble one... to solve what the creators found difficult or impossible... that was what the new race was for.

Nonetheless a user on the forum replied in a both funny and profound way:


You can enforce ‘solving the unsolvable’ all you like. That doesn’t mean that it’s actually possible.

Plus, it’s an inherently stupid setup anyway.

“Have you solved this problem yet?”

“No - because it’s impossible.”

”I don’t care. Solve it.”

”Here is a mathematical proof of why it’s impossible.”

”Our best minds cannot understand your maths and don’t believe you.”

”Naturally you don’t understand our maths. If you did, you wouldn’t need us around.”

”I grow tired of your insolence. Solve this problem or die.”

“OK genius. How is killing your problem solvers going to solve the problem.”

[Arioch]

Hmm... are there pygmy loroi, then?

Pygmy and dwarf Loroi would be different how?

Also, while we're on the topic, considering the sophistication of Loroi and other alliance members genetic engineering technology, what are their views on creating constructed citizens along the lines of the Umaik.

As in, imagine there was a Loroi or a Pipolsid that was born several centuries ago and was - truly - one in a hundred billion in terms of intelligence. As in, they are the most intelligent being in the alliances recorded history and astounding stories are abound about their casual genius and the ease with which the revolutionized xyz field.

The question would naturally arise... why not clone them? This wouldn't be a population replacement measure, but, if you could have a hundred thousand Einstein's, or a hundred thousand Noethers, or just increase the average intelligence of your population by a standard deviation or two, why wouldn't you? Granted, there may be issues with this. Perhaps intelligence doesn't translate very well or across various fields, and perhaps the influence of single individuals is negligible, but still, it does seem like something that would happen because somebody tried it, if only for an episode.

There's no guarantee that a cloned Einstein would have the genius of the original. The adult human mind is partly determined by the individual's genes, and partly determined by the individual's environment, upbringing and experiences. We can't be sure what clones would be like, but there's a strong clue in the evidence of identical twins: adult twins often have different likes, aptitudes, skills and even sometimes differences in appearances from their twin siblings, even though their genes are identical and they were raised in the same household by the same parents. Even if you tried to artificially recreate the exact circumstances of the original individual's life (which is the subject of CJ Cherryh's Cyteen trilogy), there would always be uncontrollable differences, and I think the cloned individual would most likely end up being unique rather than a copy of the original. But we won't know for sure until someone tries it. And I expect that someone eventually will.

On a related note, beyond cloning, how is genetic engineering seen, both using natural and constructed genes.

For the Loroi in particular, how is the craft viewed, both in cases to prevent any undesirable traits or to select for preferred ones. And is there a practical limit to how much any particular loroi would want "their" genes to be meddled with in their transition to the next generation?

Attitudes towards this kind of tampering will vary by culture and subculture. Cloning and most forms of genetic tampering with humans is currently illegal in the US and most of the world where it is technologically possible, and I expect it will stay that way for the foreseeable future. However, I also think it's very likely that there will always be some offshore haven for would-be genetic engineers, and once offworld colonies start being set up, Earth's rules go out the window. Many different science fiction settings have at least one colony world where the "self-styled genetic supermen" went to establish a new master race.

Each alien culture and subculture will have different views on this subject, but I think most will agree that such tampering is mostly not a good idea, unless there are issues of public health involved (like the need to adapt to a new pathogen or a sudden change in environment). However, I can imagine that there will always be parents who will feel the need to try to give their offspring any available advantage (whether or not it is actually an advantage), and so I expect that genetic engineering will be mostly something that happens under the table or away from the eyes of the law.

While the Loroi have a very regimented society, they value their individuality, and I don't think most would see the point of cloning or extensive gene modification. The ancestors of the Loroi were already artificially genetically optimized, so there's probably not much more left to do in that regard. Attempts to clone or engineer superior telepathic or psychokinetic power have had unsatisfactory results, and cloning doesn't increase the rate of reproduction (a clone has the same maturation and education requirements as a natural-born person, and for the Loroi its the care and education infrastructure that's already saturated), so it's not really a benefit.

For some other non-Soia-Liron species, artificial genetic optimization might be considered the norm, in the same vein as vaccinations and orthodontics. I have a feeling that the Mannadi might have been like this. For some other species, it's not even a consideration. The Pipolsid, for example, reproduce by passing into their offspring chemical copies of their memories, so the offspring are more like our popular notion of clones than actual clones would be.

And, rather than creating a new post in the Umaik thread, I'll just ask here: are such considerations relevant in how the Umaik run their reproduction programs? As in, are all of those attrition runs filled with Umaik Ubermenschen, or are they just selecting for healthy individuals with randomized phenotypes.

The how and why of Umiak eugenics is not a subject of common knowledge (even to the Umiak that we encounter in the story).

[Keklas Rekobah]

Hmm... are there pygmy loroi, then?

Pygmy and dwarf Loroi would be different how?

"Pygmies" seem to be ordinary people of small stature, while achondroplasia ("dwarfism") involves under-developed limbs with the head and body growing to normal sizes.

• • •

Interesting claim, though . . . that Loroi DNA was "scrubbed" and optimized ~200,000 years ago to produce Loroi in their present form.

Would they have fewer than 23 chromosome pairs?  Would their chromosome contain fewer alleles (with correspondingly longer telomeres at the ends)?

Human DNA uses an "X/Y" scheme on the 23rd pair to determine sex-at-birth.  What possible schemes did the Designers employ in Loroi DNA?

[White]

Hmm... are there pygmy loroi, then?

Pygmy and dwarf Loroi would be different how?

Hah! It's a small but important difference.

To add onto what Keklas said, "Pygmy" is more of an ethnic category than a genetic mutation. And, it's an ethnic category that spans continents as basically any people that are sufficiently short get the label.

Though, in the case of Loroi, a new name may need to be adapted. Say... space fairies?

Interesting note: on earth, according to Wikipedia, it's male height that's used as a marker point for pygmies, where basically any group with an average male height below 150cm gets labelled pygmies. So, with that definition in mind... would all Loroi get labelled as such?

[Arioch]

I had supposed that the name "pygmy" had come from a particular tribe of small people in Africa or Oceania, but upon further investigation I see that it was an ethnographic term derived from Greek applied to various unrelated ethnic groups of small people. (I suppose it should have occurred to me that "pygmy" doesn't sound very African... but then neither does "Fuzzy-wuzzy.")

I think that any ethnic group with restricted access to nutritious food (whether rainforest dwellers or wasteland nomads) will be smaller than average, but once the group has access to high-tech food sources and medicine, those differences will probably start to disappear. For the Loroi on Deinar, the ethnic Login group tended to be smaller than the others, living on the periphery of civilization, but the Loroi have had post-industrial technology for around a millennium and a half. Only groups that had remained traditional low-tech nomads would retain these differences, and I don't think they'd be extreme enough to fit the mold of "pygmies."

Interesting note: on earth, according to Wikipedia, it's male height that's used as a marker point for pygmies, where basically any group with an average male height below 150cm gets labelled pygmies. So, with that definition in mind... would all Loroi get labelled as such?

In case that wasn't a rhetorical question: I assume that they're using male height in this respect because males are usually taller than females, so if they wanted to use this sort of classification (if this is actually still a modern ethnographic classification, which I kind of doubt) on Loroi, they'd apply it to female height.

Interesting claim, though . . . that Loroi DNA was "scrubbed" and optimized ~200,000 years ago to produce Loroi in their present form.

I meant rather that their DNA stopped being scrubbed when Soia civilization collapsed around that time.

Would they have fewer than 23 chromosome pairs? Would their chromosome contain fewer alleles (with correspondingly longer telomeres at the ends)?

Human DNA uses an "X/Y" scheme on the 23rd pair to determine sex-at-birth. What possible schemes did the Designers employ in Loroi DNA?

Our biological chemistry, cell structures, use of chromosomes, etc., are all specific to life on Earth, all of which shares a common ancestor. Alien life, even if it's based on essentially the same chemistry (proteins, etc.), won't have cellular structures that look exactly like ours. And Soia-Liron biochemistry is not based on the same chemistry. Humans and Loroi are not related; even though they look like us externally, we do not share a common ancestor.