Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[CrimsonFALKE]

do the loroi heavy any land basic vehicles such as tanks or is it all space oriented.

Sure, they have a variety of ground forces. That's discussed in a little more detail here:
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_ground_war.html

What about human ground forces? i saw several documentaries involving war with aliens, even Steven Hawkins says Aliens if/will engage in ground warfare will have a harsh realization that Earthlings are adept at war. I mean really we go what 10 years at the most without a war. I am sure the Lori IFVs are something like Tau hammerhead tanks but that still leaves mankind the odd man out.

[Arioch]

do the loroi heavy any land basic vehicles such as tanks or is it all space oriented.

Sure, they have a variety of ground forces. That's discussed in a little more detail here:
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_ground_war.html

What about human ground forces? i saw several documentaries involving war with aliens, even Steven Hawkins says Aliens if/will engage in ground warfare will have a harsh realization that Earthlings are adept at war. I mean really we go what 10 years at the most without a war. I am sure the Lori IFVs are something like Tau hammerhead tanks but that still leaves mankind the odd man out.

Humanity will have access to the same kinds of weaponry as the other combatants, though they will be at a disadvantage because of the major combatants' superior technology. Humans are adept at war, but so are the Loroi and Umiak, and both the Umiak cyborg hardtroops and the Loroi psionic warfare castes are very dangerous opponents. However, ground warfare is much more supportive of asymmetrical fighting than space warfare, and I think it's very difficult to hold a planet's surface if the natives are determined to oppose you.

However, the problem is really a strategic one, rather than a tactical one. Even if Humanity had superior ground troops, opposing an invasion would be a very dangerous strategic decision. In this war, there is no longer a prohibition against genocide, and so in order for a planetary invasion to even be attempted, there has to be a compelling reason to justify a costly ground operation instead of simply destroying the surface from orbit, which is much easier. In the Tithric campaign, the Loroi did not have any pressing need to occupy the Tithric worlds, only to deny the Umiak usage of them, and so the simplest solution was to wipe them out.

Even if the hypothetical attacker does decide that invasion is worthwhile, a successful defensive ground campaign (or insurgency) opposing that invasion will only encourage the attacker to change their minds and just destroy the place. This scenario has already played out for both sides: for the Umiak in their occupation of the Loroi Steppes colonies, and earlier for the Loroi in their occupation of the Mannadi home systems; in both cases, when it became clear to the invaders that the defenders would never surrender, they simply wiped them out. It's certainly possible for a less-advanced population to militarily defeat a more-advanced invading ground force, but to expect that the defeated invaders will just apologize and leave (as in the Avatar movie scenario) without very significant from-orbit reprisal is, I think, a bit naive.

So, in a hypothetical scenario in which Earth is invaded by the Loroi or Umiak, I think the nations of Earth will have to very seriously consider the possibility of prompt surrender, because active armed opposition to such an invasion is probably a no-win scenario for Humanity.

[CrimsonFALKE]

Humanity will have access to the same kinds of weaponry as the other combatants, though they will be at a disadvantage because of the major combatants' superior technology. Humans are adept at war, but so are the Loroi and Umiak, and both the Umiak cyborg hardtroops and the Loroi psionic warfare castes are very dangerous opponents. However, ground warfare is much more supportive of asymmetrical fighting than space warfare, and I think it's very difficult to hold a planet's surface if the natives are determined to oppose you.

However, the problem is really a strategic one, rather than a tactical one. Even if Humanity had superior ground troops, opposing an invasion would be a very dangerous strategic decision. In this war, there is no longer a prohibition against genocide, and so in order for a planetary invasion to even be attempted, there has to be a compelling reason to justify a costly ground operation instead of simply destroying the surface from orbit, which is much easier. In the Tithric campaign, the Loroi did not have any pressing need to occupy the Tithric worlds, only to deny the Umiak usage of them, and so the simplest solution was to wipe them out.

Even if the hypothetical attacker does decide that invasion is worthwhile, a successful defensive ground campaign (or insurgency) opposing that invasion will only encourage the attacker to change their minds and just destroy the place. This scenario has already played out for both sides: for the Umiak in their occupation of the Loroi Steppes colonies, and earlier for the Loroi in their occupation of the Mannadi home systems; in both cases, when it became clear to the invaders that the defenders would never surrender, they simply wiped them out. It's certainly possible for a less-advanced population to militarily defeat a more-advanced invading ground force, but to expect that the defeated invaders will just apologize and leave (as in the Avatar movie scenario) without very significant from-orbit reprisal is, I think, a bit naive.

So, in a hypothetical scenario in which Earth is invaded by the Loroi or Umiak, I think the nations of Earth will have to very seriously consider the possibility of prompt surrender, because active armed opposition to such an invasion is probably a no-win scenario for Humanity.

Oddly I thought you said ground warfare is largely mute and both sides were duking it out in space? Yes that its fair to place our odds at fighting in the low odds of success. Although currently I see our best chances to survive in outside is to offer support in exchange for training and technology. Although I have space battles that use asymmetrical methods of combat, from hiding star-fighters and frigates in debris/gas fields. I guess my question now is mostly about human ground forces, and what of this farseeing sensor system that we don't show up on? I mean each realm is different and my war experience is just a bit of a hind sight thing. I honestly would like to know why both sides have opted for Genocide? That style of warfare would cost you valuable resources on many planets from food to minerals. plus if you could land a force on enemy worlds entire options can open from assassinations of key enemy leaders to even ruining an enemy's infrastructure.

[Arioch]

Oddly I thought you said ground warfare is largely mute and both sides were duking it out in space?

That's correct; it's very unlikely that either side would attempt a ground invasion of Earth.

The difficulty with talking in detail about Earth's surface fighting capability against either the Loroi or Umiak is that such a conflict is entirely hypothetical; at present, neither side has any reason for attacking Earth. The details of how such a conflict would play out depend entirely on what the attacker's objective is, and under what circumstances. At this point in the story, those motivations and conditions don't yet exist, and so it's problematic to speculate about them.

[CrimsonFALKE]

Oddly I thought you said ground warfare is largely mute and both sides were duking it out in space?

That's correct; it's very unlikely that either side would attempt a ground invasion of Earth.

The difficulty with talking in detail about Earth's surface fighting capability against either the Loroi or Umiak is that such a conflict is entirely hypothetical; at present, neither side has any reason for attacking Earth. The details of how such a conflict would play out depend entirely on what the attacker's objective is, and under what circumstances. At this point in the story, those motivations and conditions don't yet exist, and so it's problematic to speculate about them.

Sorry I just brought the hypothetical up to secure/disable resources to help exterminate the Shells/Loroi.

[fredgiblet]

On topic:

Do the Loroi cry? I'm specifically referring to the physioilllogical act of crying, not "Are they such badasses they never feel sad?"

Do the Loroi celebrate birthdays?

[Arioch]

Do Loroi have the equivalent of "Red Necks" and what makes them so?

I think that regional subcultures will always form stereotypes about each other. For the Loroi, the part of the culture that values traditionalist ways, rural outdoor living, and weapon use... is actually the mainstream warrior culture.

There are some ultra-traditionalist Loroi subcultures, that still live a tribal hunter-gatherer lifestyle and reject many modern technologies.

Do the Loroi cry? I'm specifically referring to the physioilllogical act of crying, not "Are they such badasses they never feel sad?"

Yes.

Do the Loroi celebrate birthdays?

Some subcultures do, but in most of the mainstream warrior culture, a "name day" is usually celebrated instead. This commemorates the event of passage into adulthood, the day the warrior received her spoken name. Because everyone within a particular diral band achieves passage on the same day, the holiday is usually observed communally with the rest of the band (if they are still alive).

Civilians, as in many cases, either follow local cultural traditions, or else follow an equivalent of the warrior traditions.

[Nathan]

Howdy!

The Loroi population is probably around 50-100 billion, and the alien population is probably more than that.

=> 50 billion Loroi, minimum

I don't have much in the way of hard Loroi population figures. Checking my notes, the three Loroi splinter worlds had a combined population of about 1.25 billion in 850 CE, at the time of rediscovery of starflight. I had made a note that Perrein's population had only increased from 200 million to 500 million since then, but that this was unusual, and also that the most populous Loroi planet was Maia. Most Loroi worlds would probably have populations much small than that of Earth, but Loroi territory is perhaps ten times as large. I would guess at a figure somewhere in the neighborhood to 50 to 100 billion. With high birth rates and appalling casualty rates, the number could fluctuate a lot.

=> "Appaling" casualty rates

Q.How large is the Loroi warrior caste?
Might be as much as half the population.
In addition to points mentioned above, many functions and services that we would consider to be civil (government administration, judiciary, police and emergency services, medical services, civil engineering) are mostly handled under the auspices of the Loroi warrior castes.

=> Half are "warriors": 25 billion, minimum

The number of active Loroi warships would probably be over one thousand, considering the size of the empire and the number of ships required on each front. A long time ago I had numbers of ships for each class listed (as they are in the Terran version of the fleet list), but I eventually realized that the total indicated number was far too small, and also that it would be a good idea to leave myself some wiggle room by not being quite so specific. High production rates and regular heavy losses will mean that this number fluctuates significantly over time.

=> Over 1,000 active Loroi warships. Say 2,000 for good measure.

And again, starships are incredibly expensive items to produce. We're talking about vessels with power generation capabilities that potentially exceed the total output of all the powerplants on modern-day Earth. The Loroi produce hundreds of such vessels each year, and the Umiak of course even more than that.

=> Hundreds of warships produced per year, say 500. Since the overall number hardly changes, this is also the average yearly loss of warships. This works well with a very high attrition rate among ships, given there are only somewhat north of 1,000 ships active at any point in time.

Excluding carriers and command ships, every type from Heavy Battleships to Light Cruisers has between 400 and 600 crew members.

=> Average warship crew is 500. Probably less, as the few command ships and carriers will be more than outweighed by destroyers and light craft.

It follows:
a) Yearly casualties are about 500 crew * 500 ships = 250,000 Loroi.
b) About 500 crew * 2,000 ships = 1,000,000 Loroi are enlisted on board military ships.

1) How do 250,000 yearly casualties square with "appaling casualty rates" in a population of 50,000,000,000 Loroi? On present-day Earth, with a population less than one seventh of the Loroi empire, 5 times as many people die in traffic each year.
2) How do 1,000,000 sailors square with a military of 25,000,000,000 Loroi, even accepting the "military" includes tons of non-combat functions? Only one in 25,000 military Loroi is on board ship?
3) Where do all the newborn Loroi go? Certainly the losses are way too low to even register in the grand scheme of things. As soon as the Loroi activate their population bomb, as they apparently did, they should double every dozen years. In other words, the empire should be at 4 times the population, at least, than it was at war outbreak. (Aside: Unless the economic base could grow as quickly, it would be insane to actually trigger the population bomb. Those starships are, after all, hardly produced by hand. Also, unless the whole economic output grows as quickly as the population, living standards will dramatically drop. Finally, if the economy could grow that quickly, why didn't the Loroi grow to their limit, wherever that is, long before the war?)
4) Why are young people even allowed near a ship? Given the vast military manpower and the comparatively tiny shipbound crews, only the very best and most experienced veterans should be on board, not 14-year old younglings.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to knock the thing down: I love the comic, the setting, and the basic idea behind it. It's in fact the best scenario I know of where Earth is vastly outclassed, yet undiscovered, by two believably equally strong opponents who are not yet at god-tech-level. I consider this a major achievement, as the exponential function makes the creation of such a scenario extremely challenging. I also love the choice of tech-level, and the way faster-than-light travel/communication is treated. So I'm really looking forward to the answers!

[Arioch]

Howdy!
1) How do 250,000 yearly casualties square with "appaling casualty rates" in a population of 50,000,000,000 Loroi? On present-day Earth, with a population less than one seventh of the Loroi empire, 5 times as many people die in traffic each year.
2) How do 1,000,000 sailors square with a military of 25,000,000,000 Loroi, even accepting the "military" includes tons of non-combat functions? Only one in 25,000 military Loroi is on board ship?
3) Where do all the newborn Loroi go? Certainly the losses are way too low to even register in the grand scheme of things. As soon as the Loroi activate their population bomb, as they apparently did, they should double every dozen years. In other words, the empire should be at 4 times the population, at least, than it was at war outbreak. (Aside: Unless the economic base could grow as quickly, it would be insane to actually trigger the population bomb. Those starships are, after all, hardly produced by hand. Also, unless the whole economic output grows as quickly as the population, living standards will dramatically drop. Finally, if the economy could grow that quickly, why didn't the Loroi grow to their limit, wherever that is, long before the war?)
4) Why are young people even allowed near a ship? Given the vast military manpower and the comparatively tiny shipbound crews, only the very best and most experienced veterans should be on board, not 14-year old younglings.

Hello!

1) The most serious losses in terms of large-scale population occurred earlier in the war when populated worlds were under direct attack. Since the stalemate, most casualties are due to loss of ships and damage to front-line bases; these losses are significant, not in terms of the total population, but in terms of the percentage of active duty personnel. Here is a discussion on the subject from earlier in this thread:

Actually, this is something I don't understand - why should the Loroi suffer so high casualties that they need to lift population restrictions on their worlds?

The first part of the answer is that high-tech societes are specialized; it's not easy to just grab a person from one role and toss her into someone else's role. For one thing, many jobs require years of training, and for another: who's now doing that person's old job? Combat personnel are usually a small percentage of the total population (especially in any high-tech system that requires a lot of logistics and support, like air forces and navies), but they're highly specialized and can't easily be replaced, so even when the loss rates are small compared to the total population, they can still cause serious manpower shortages and disruptions to society.

If you look at the casualty rates for WWII, which was the bloodiest war in our history, the actual percentages of loss are very small compared to the total population. Japan's disastrous losses amounted to only about 4% of the population, but they suffered from debilitating manpower shortages, especially in key areas. One key shortage I heard about was in pilots; prior to the war, the Japanese placed rigorous standards on their pilot training, and washed out large numbers of capable pilots who didn't measure up. So the result was an elite pilot corps, but very little manpower reserve, and a system that would make training more to the same standard very difficult and time-consuming. And so, when the Japanese lost a significant percentage of their best pilots at Coral Sea and Midway, this was a blow from which they were not able to recover. When the critical "big" air battles came a few years later at the Marianas and Philippines, the majority of Japanese pilots were hastily-trained replacements who were no match for their American counterparts, and the result is still remembered as a "turkey-shoot."

The Loroi had a much larger personnel reserve, but they have a similar challenge in that warriors are not recruited from civilian populations, but instead trained from a young age. It's possible to throw some desk jockeys or even civilians into needed specialties in a pinch, but that replacement is going to operate at reduced effectiveness, and the job that person used to perform prior to being reassigned will not get done. When a military loses a third of its combat forces in a single battle, that's going to present very serious personnel challenges, even if those losses represent a relatively small percentage of the total population.

The second part of answer is that the Loroi have lost a lot more than just ship crews. In the first five years of the war, the Loroi lost about a dozen inhabited systems and suffered raids directly into populated regions; the majority of the population in the lost systems were evacuated beforehand, but the loss of life was still staggering. Looking again at the WWII loss rates, even in those situations with the most appalling losses and incidents of genocide, the worst percentages of loss are "only" in the neighborhood of 16% (Poland) to 14% (Soviet Union). The loss of ten percent of your population is devastating to a modern society, especially during time of war. It's really hard to field new forces and increase production at home when you have fewer people.

I would agree that losses of ships and materiel are probably more of a crisis than the manpower shortages, but ships can be replaced on a much shorter time scale than people.

2) The Loroi warrior class is responsible for nearly all governmental functions (municipal, regional and imperial) and operation of all of the military services, not just the operation of the fleet.
3) The shortage is not of just any warm bodies (at least, not since the first generation of the "population bomb" reached maturity, around the time of the Semoset campaign), but rather of trained and experienced warriors. When loss rates are high, experienced personnel are hard to come by (especially when you're trying to increase the size of your forces), and even the young rookies are not an inexhaustible resource. The Loroi do not draft civilians into military service, so it takes 8 years to produce a new Loroi warrior from scratch, and the infrastructure required to raise and train those warriors is pretty well saturated at this point.
4) See the answers to 1) and 3).

After nearly 8 years of stalemate, the total Loroi population is probably significantly larger than it was before the start of the war, but that doesn't mean there aren't still manpower shortages. There are more jobs to do, and the limitations on the speed of communication and transport mean that shortages are felt more acutely the farther away you get from the centers of population. In particular, the raiders groups often experience shortages, due in part to the nature of their operation (they experience high attrition rates and often operate deep in contested territory where resupply is difficult) and due in part to the current Loroi strategy of keeping much of their reserves behind the lines (both so that the enemy cannot count them, and so that they are not exposed to casualties).

[CrimsonFALKE]

Do Loroi have the equivalent of "Red Necks" and what makes them so?

I think that regional subcultures will always form stereotypes about each other. For the Loroi, the part of the culture that values traditionalist ways, rural outdoor living, and weapon use... is actually the mainstream warrior culture.

There are some ultra-traditionalist Loroi subcultures, that still live a tribal hunter-gatherer lifestyle and reject many modern technologies.

In that case how about a Lorori duck dynasty?

[Absalom]

Do the Loroi cry? I'm specifically referring to the physioilllogical act of crying, not "Are they such badasses they never feel sad?"

There's a thought. Recent research (at least, I only heard of it recently) suggests that pheromones (or some other volatile olfactory signal) in a woman's tears induce the propensity of men to violence. Would this have been likely to be retained in some form among the Loroi?

[sunphoenix]

I know I HATE to see any woman in distress crying.. but maybe that's just my chivalrous oriented upbringing to protect and be respectful to women.

meh... interesting if there is an actual pheromone imperative!

But my question is to Arioch... so the Loroi youth are organized into fighting schools run by their elder clan/tribe members called diral band? I called them fighting societys or cadre... and refered to the individual sisters as cadresisters in our fanfic only because I could not find a organizational discription of Loroi childhood institutions.

Is there a link you can post for this kind of family/fighting society organization and terminology?

Also a listing of time and distances measurements and its human equivalent in Loroi terms would be useful. I think I saw something on that but I'm having trouble finding it again.

[Arioch]

Do the Loroi cry? I'm specifically referring to the physioilllogical act of crying, not "Are they such badasses they never feel sad?"

There's a thought. Recent research (at least, I only heard of it recently) suggests that pheromones (or some other volatile olfactory signal) in a woman's tears induce the propensity of men to violence. Would this have been likely to be retained in some form among the Loroi?

Sounds like a bad Star Trek episode. (Actually, it wasn't that bad.)

But my question is to Arioch... so the Loroi youth are organized into fighting schools run by their elder clan/tribe members called diral band? I called them fighting societys or cadre... and refered to the individual sisters as cadresisters in our fanfic only because I could not find a organizational discription of Loroi childhood institutions.

Is there a link you can post for this kind of family/fighting society organization and terminology?

Also a listing of time and distances measurements and its human equivalent in Loroi terms would be useful. I think I saw something on that but I'm having trouble finding it again.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... rites.html

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 191#p13191

[sunphoenix]

AH! Ok..Thx Arioch!

Darn. After reading the rites section.. I think I may have made a few minor misrepresentations in our role-play of our characters. Not that it overly matters we have missed a few opportunities in Cydonia Rising to showcase some of the Loroi culture acuratly.. but they are minor slips.

I'll make a better effort in the future. lol.

Thanks again!

[Absalom]

Do the Loroi cry? I'm specifically referring to the physioilllogical act of crying, not "Are they such badasses they never feel sad?"

There's a thought. Recent research (at least, I only heard of it recently) suggests that pheromones (or some other volatile olfactory signal) in a woman's tears induce the propensity of men to violence. Would this have been likely to be retained in some form among the Loroi?

Sounds like a bad Star Trek episode. (Actually, it wasn't that bad.)

Reduce, I meant reduce, not induce, regardless of what I wrote. Apparently I need to double-check the short stuff too.

[Arioch]

Reduce, I meant reduce, not induce, regardless of what I wrote. Apparently I need to double-check the short stuff too.

I see. I haven't seen any research data on the subject, but I would surprised if that were true. The sadistic people I know of are delighted and encouraged, not deterred, by the tears of their victims.

Even if this were a factor in human behavior, which I doubt, it doesn't make much sense in the Loroi. Loroi females are stronger than the males, and so are not likely to be victims of trans-gender violence. The Loroi females are similarly unlikely to inflict violence on Loroi males, as there is no purpose to it. A male human can force sexual contact on a female human, but a female Loroi cannot force sexual contact on a male Loroi.

[Mackus]

I see. I haven't seen any research data on the subject, but I would surprised if that were true. The sadistic people I know of are delighted and encouraged, not deterred, by the tears of their victims.

Well, psychopaths lack empathy, and Sadist enjoy suffering of others. So of course tears, which are meant to invoke empathy in observer would have no effect on psychopath, and opposite effect on sadist. So behavior of antisocial people does not disqualify the theory for general male population. (y'know, the sane part)

Even if this were a factor in human behavior, which I doubt, it doesn't make much sense in the Loroi. Loroi females are stronger than the males, and so are not likely to be victims of trans-gender violence. The Loroi females are similarly unlikely to inflict violence on Loroi males, as there is no purpose to it. A male human can force sexual contact on a female human, but a female Loroi cannot force sexual contact on a male Loroi.

Wait, do male Loroi have better control of their bodies than human men? Wouldn't that be useless, even harmful from evolutionary point of view? Better to err on other side, having an erection when no sex, rather that failing to perform when there is occasion to do so (even if unwillingly...).

[cacambo43]

Wait, do male Loroi have better control of their bodies than human men? Wouldn't that be useless, even harmful from evolutionary point of view? Better to err on other side, having an erection when no sex, rather that failing to perform when there is occasion to do so (even if unwillingly...).

1. It's almost certain the Loroi are engineered, not "evolved" in that sense.
2. This is Arioch's fictional universe, so there.



CJSF

[CrimsonFALKE]

Do the Loroi cry? I'm specifically referring to the physioilllogical act of crying, not "Are they such badasses they never feel sad?"

There's a thought. Recent research (at least, I only heard of it recently) suggests that pheromones (or some other volatile olfactory signal) in a woman's tears induce the propensity of men to violence. Would this have been likely to be retained in some form among the Loroi?

Sounds like a bad Star Trek episode. (Actually, it wasn't that bad.)

But my question is to Arioch... so the Loroi youth are organized into fighting schools run by their elder clan/tribe members called diral band? I called them fighting societys or cadre... and refered to the individual sisters as cadresisters in our fanfic only because I could not find a organizational discription of Loroi childhood institutions.

Is there a link you can post for this kind of family/fighting society organization and terminology?

Also a listing of time and distances measurements and its human equivalent in Loroi terms would be useful. I think I saw something on that but I'm having trouble finding it again.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... rites.html

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 191#p13191

Actually it is a bad episode of startrek where Captain Kerk touched the tear of some princess and it had pherimons that would you know make him like mate with her or something.

[Arioch]

Wait, do male Loroi have better control of their bodies than human men? Wouldn't that be useless, even harmful from evolutionary point of view? Better to err on other side, having an erection when no sex, rather that failing to perform when there is occasion to do so (even if unwillingly...).

Are you suggesting that a human male would normally become aroused if a woman attempted to have sex with him against his will? If he's aroused, can it really be said that the sex is against his will? It's true that there's almost no evolutionary benefit for a male to refuse sex, which is one of the reasons why males almost never refuse sex. Which is why it's hard to imagine the situation. If a male refuses sex with a female it's usually because he has no sexual interest in the prospective partner, and if he has no interest, there's not much the female can to do force the situation.