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Loroi Trade translation request general 
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
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To be continued…

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:32 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
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My title is Listel Tozet Eilis; my spoken name means "beryl".

How this phrase from page 34 was intended to sound in trade?
"Eilis" and "beryl" is the same word, isn't it?

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Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:31 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
SVlad wrote:
Quote:
My title is Listel Tozet Eilis; my spoken name means "beryl".

How this phrase from page 34 was intended to sound in trade?
"Eilis" and "beryl" is the same word, isn't it?

This is a translation construction for the benefit of the reader (as Alex knows what Eilis means, but the reader does not). The literal phrasing would have been something like this:
"My title is Listel Tozet Eilis. 'Eilis' is my spoken name, 'Listel' is the name of my caste, and 'Tozet' is my military rank."

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Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:32 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
Arioch wrote:
SVlad wrote:
Quote:
My title is Listel Tozet Eilis; my spoken name means "beryl".

How this phrase from page 34 was intended to sound in trade?
"Eilis" and "beryl" is the same word, isn't it?

This is a translation construction for the benefit of the reader (as Alex knows what Eilis means, but the reader does not). The literal phrasing would have been something like this:
"My title is Listel Tozet Eilis. 'Eilis' is my spoken name, 'Listel' is the name of my caste, and 'Tozet' is my military rank."


This begs the question if she would respond to be called Beryl instead of Eilis if spoken to in English on an hypothetical visit to earth. Culture and personal preference do have an inpact on such things. Then again, as a telepath she already use a "translation" of her name with Eilis and as such maybe it doesn't matter. Do the Loroi even HAVE names in an telepathic sense?


Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:02 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
Sweforce wrote:
This begs the question if she would respond to be called Beryl instead of Eilis if spoken to in English on an hypothetical visit to earth. Culture and personal preference do have an inpact on such things. Then again, as a telepath she already use a "translation" of her name with Eilis and as such maybe it doesn't matter.

Beryl is a cooperative sort, and would probably be happy to respond to pretty much any spoken name that you would choose to use. Other Loroi might prefer the Trade versions of their names, especially if they don't speak English (as they may simply not recognize the words used). But as you say, the spoken name is formal and not really internalized; only a particularly cranky Loroi would likely be offended by use of name translations.

Sweforce wrote:
Do the Loroi even HAVE names in an telepathic sense?

Yes. They are somewhat abstract and not easy to translate.

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Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:09 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
I always assumed that 'Beryl' was the translation from normal Trade and 'Eilis' was Loroi dialect.
Alex as narrator is really taking the liberty of fabricating other characters dialogue to include handy translations?

Why not use the same method that was used for words like 'plenipotentiary' and add a little, unobstrusive line to the bottom?


Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:41 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
Werra wrote:
I always assumed that 'Beryl' was the translation from normal Trade and 'Eilis' was Loroi dialect.
Alex as narrator is really taking the liberty of fabricating other characters dialogue to include handy translations?

There is a lot going on in the translated dialogue which is there for the purposes of storytelling, and which may not be easily explained as dialect. Alex's own dialogue contains contractions and other colloquial language features that don't exist in Trade; I use them to make Alex's speech sound more natural to the reader and less formal as compared to the Loroi. It's true that Alex is speaking a slightly different dialect than the Loroi, but it certainly doesn't have anything like contractions. Trade doesn't have gendered pronouns, but the translated dialogue in most cases uses the relevant gender (from Alex's point of view) or lack thereof. Exposing the quirks of literal translations of Trade can sometimes be useful as a narrative device when confusion is desirable (like Beryl's use of 'seems'), but in many cases it's an unnecessary complication. Almost every speaking character has a particular idiosyncrasy of speech which helps to differentiate the character, but which may not necessarily be easy to explain in terms of the grammar of Trade.

The narrative convention used in Outsider is that the story is being told by an older Alex after the fact; everything is through Alex's point of view as narrator, and we don't ever see anything that Alex himself did not see or hear. This includes the translated dialogue; you can think of it as Alex's recollections of the meaning of what was said, rather than a word for word literal translation of a recording.

Werra wrote:
Why not use the same method that was used for words like 'plenipotentiary' and add a little, unobstrusive line to the bottom?

I suppose it's a matter of taste and convention. In my experience, the asterisk and footnote convention is used to provide optional information or explanations for words or terms or situations which the reader might or might not know; I don't think it should be used for necessary information. 'Proplyd' and 'plenipotentiary' are English words that don't necessarily require definition, but there's really no way for the average reader to know that Eilis means 'Beryl', which is important to know since it's the name that a major character is going to be referred to by, so it's not optional and should really be stated explicitly in the dialogue. I could also have added a narration bubble explaining that Eilis means 'Beryl', but that seems like an unnecessary complication, and I think it flows better to simply structure the dialogue so that it's self-explanatory.

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Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:00 pm
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
Arioch wrote:
the story is being told by an older Alex after the fact

So Alex survives at the end?

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Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:16 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
That seems to be implied.

Maybe this is another "How I met your mother" story?
(Therefore Beryl obviously NOT being the mother the story is about, but maybe she becomes a nanny of some kind?)

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Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:31 am
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Post Re: Loroi Trade translation request general
SVlad wrote:
Arioch wrote:
the story is being told by an older Alex after the fact

So Alex survives at the end?


His surrogate or simulcratum at the very least. ;)

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