Armor values

[dfacto]

Instead of doing point by point, let me just break down the way I'm thinking of theoretical engagements.

Keep in mind that this would only be workable for the Steppes where interdiction fleets intercept the Umiak. If you have to defend a world, then you just have to put your big guns forward and duke it out.

-Head on: This would be the worst possible way to meet the Umiak. With an initial velocity vector towards the also moving (and possibly accelerating) Umiak, the Loroi would have to turn their ships around and accelerate at full burn in the opposite direction. Considering engagement ranges are far shorter than detection ranges (except in systems like Naam) the Loroi would probably still be able to stay out of Umiak range, but would burn massive amounts of fuel. Once they match velocity with the Umiak, they would not need to accelerate further to avoid gunboats and torpedoes since we've already seen that Loroi defenses are formidable even when meeting accelerating forces head on. With matching velocity vectors they would be even better.

The Loroi would heavily damage the Umiak forces, but they would greatly drain their fuel reserves, and might be in real trouble if the Umiak brought a lot of ships and missiles to the party.

Chasing: The Umiak could accelerate and run immediately, and the Loroi would be unable to catch any but the largest and slowest ships. A Umiak attempt to turn around and close would be futile since the Loroi could just as well turn around and fly away while shooting. Sending missiles and gunboats to disrupt the closing Loroi would be futile, since the whole concept of that strategy is to allow the heavies to close, not for the missiles and gunboats to do any real damage. We've already seen that they can't do much. All in all a good way to meet the Umiak if you want to chase them away from something, but in terms of battle just not an effective scenario.

Perpendicular approach: The best scenario. Initially accelerate towards the Umiak from the sides. They can choose to change course and run, in which case as above they will lose their heavies and abandon their course. They can choose to turn and intercept, which would allow the Loroi to also turn away and take a parallel course to the Umiak (out of range) and rake them with fire. Or the Loroi could choose to run away while matching speed with greater efficiency then meeting the Umiak head on. If the Umiak maintain course the Loroi can pull up short, assume a parallel course, and harass them with impunity.

Ideally you would use your farseeing device to detect the enemies rough direction of travel and send two task forces to close from each side. If the Umiak run towards any one flank they open themselves to raking fire from one flank, and lose their heavies to the other flank. If they maintain course or take a course away from both flanks they take fire from both sides.


Is this the end all be all victory strategy? No, the Umiak have a big advantage in numbers, and this is all somewhat theoretical, as discord said. But what it does illustrate, and to me quite clearly, is that having the ability to fire in all directions would be a huge boon to the Loroi, and would expand their tactical repertoire while reducing their losses. Space is 3d; having a 360 firing arc is a huge advantage. You can chase, you can close, you can broadside, you can do a whole lot more than if you have to turn your entire ships and break acceleration in order to fire.

[bunnyboy]

Turret is only expensive weak point, if you only need to point your vehicle to enemy.

[Tash]

Based on observation of the Naam battle, it appears that turreted weapons- blasters and possibly pulse cannons- do have a wide field of fire.
It hardly seems to be a matter of having to turn about and point straight at the enemy to fire; in fact, based on visual evidence and what I'm reading from Arioch, it just seems like they can't fire aft, which seems reasonable. They can outrun the enemy, and the enemy has relatively short ranges; they don't need to stop the enemy setting their tail on fire because, given any kind of warning, it doesn't seem likely the Umiak could set it on fire unless the Loroi let them.

EDIT: Okay, already stated earlier. Still, it seems to need being said again.

[Arioch]

Based on observation of the Naam battle, it appears that turreted weapons- blasters and possibly pulse cannons- do have a wide field of fire. It hardly seems to be a matter of having to turn about and point straight at the enemy to fire; in fact, based on visual evidence and what I'm reading from Arioch, it just seems like they can't fire aft, which seems reasonable.

Yes. The Loroi turrets have pretty decent overall coverage, just not directly aft. Most are oriented toward the forward 60 degree arc, because that's the 90% contingency, but the pulse cannon turrets you see on the GCS, BC and CW have 180 degree forward coverage (occluded of course by the body of the ship itself). The pulse cannons on the CA were a late addition, and have only a forward 60 degree arc, but the heavy blasters on the sides of the CA nacelles have full 180+ degree coverage on their respective sides, and can fire directly aft if necessary. A Loroi force with situational freedom to maneuver can easily accelerate on a perpendicular vector to the enemy and bring full firepower to bear with only minimal momentary roll and pitch adjustments.

The Umiak vessels have more complete coverage, but this means having some weapons that are always unable to fire on a given target. This provides the Umiak with advantages in some tactical situations, and disadvantages in other tactical situations. The intent is to present two different, yet viable doctrines in how to design ships and employ them in combat. The Umiak doctrine is to get their ships in close contact with the enemy, in which fire arc is more important, and the Loroi doctrine is to keep their heavy-weapon ships at a distance. In the simulations I have run, I don't think either doctrine is dominant.

The Loroi doctrine allows them to concentrate their defenses and weapons forward. If the Loroi are in range to fire at the Umiak, they do not want to show their vulnerable tails to the enemy; I can't stress this enough. The above posted weapons table is out of date, though I have nothing better to show you, but it gives a basically accurate view of the damage potential of the various weapons at range... against normal defenses. Umiak plasma weapons are quite capable of hitting Loroi ships at 1 LS range, but are not effective at penetrating Loroi forward defenses at that range. If a Loroi ship turns its vulnerable rear quarter to the enemy at that range, this changes the equation considerably. Even a gunboat can cripple a Loroi battleship if it gets a shot up the tailpipe.

Okay, already stated earlier. Still, it seems to need being said again.

So it would seem. To elaborate further, a "baffles" is a sensor blind spot, not something literally blocking weapons fire. In naval warfare, it's the sonar blind spot caused by the engine noise in the rear quarter of the ship. Many submarines have rear-firing torpedo tubes, but their ability to acquire targets in the rear quarter (unless they are not running their engines) is severely limited. The situation is similar for Outsider starships: the engines emit a hot, glowing trail of high-energy plasma that extends for kilometers behind the ship and is not an ideal medium through which to optically acquire targets. Putting turrets or sensors on stalks does not prevent this problem, any more than putting sonar on a stalk helps a submarine see past the baffles. This occlusion is not total, and some ships do have point-defense weapons oriented aft, but these are intended for close-in threats such as torpedoes or gunships that are easy to track and have a real possibility of getting in a Loroi ship's rear quarter. If there's an Umiak cruiser sniffing up a Loroi ship's tail, that Loroi ship is in a world of hurt regardless of how its weapons are situated.

In the simulations I have run, what I have found is that built-up pre-battle velocities often rule the engagements; situations in which the two forces slug it out at matched velocities are very rare. System-transit velocities take hours to build up and cancel out, so in the few minutes in which two crossing fleets are in firing range of each other, momentary facing and acceleration is really not that important. Even in the Naam example of a fixed-defense battle, the Umiak had a signficant run-up at the Loroi formation; twenty minutes of acceleration takes twenty minutes to cancel out, during which time your fleet's momentum carries them well past the enemy.

Finally, evasive maneuvers need to be considered. When you are within beam weapon range of the enemy, especially at longer ranges, constant change of acceleration vector is important to attempt to avoid being hit. This means you can't reliably accelerate 100% in your intended direction, or you make yourself an easier target.

[dfacto]

Umiak plasma weapons are quite capable of hitting Loroi ships at 1 LS range, but are not effective at penetrating Loroi forward defenses at that range.

There we go, it turns out B was the correct answer, and that changes everything. Max range at which the beam hits for any damage at all, and max range to hit for damage on heavy armor are two very different things.

To elaborate further, a "baffles" is a sensor blind spot, not something literally blocking weapons fire.

I thought you meant the vanes extending from each side of the engine, but I see you're using the submarine related term.

Turret is only expensive weak point, if you only need to point your vehicle to enemy.

Don't mind me, just replacing you because I'm better.

[BattleRaptor]

Armor Values for Terran ships dont seem right.
and I will try to explain it a diffrent way.. then simply Terran ships would be protected agasint Terran weapons and railguns seem to be there main weapon and the armor wouldnt work.

IT has been satated Terrans use MORE armor then the Loroi or even Umiak because they dont have shields.

Terran Heavy Cruiser.
0.5 armor of a 300m Loroi Ship(180 armor)
0.26 armor of a 300m Umiak ship.(300 armor)

Yet we know Terrans have MORE armor by weight/size because Arioch stated this previously.

Terran weapons
Damage Ratios assuming the "LIGHEST" least damaging weapon carried by crusiers/heavy cruisers thats intended for use agasint enemy capital ships.
Is the Heavy laser
3-9 damage.

Only 3 Loroi weapons exceede this max damage.
Super Heavy Blaster 4-15
Pulse Cannon 8-24
Wave Loom 66*-132*

Loroi Warhammer class ship is designed as a gunboat interceptor.
It only carries Medium Blasters
3-6 damage
It has to take out gunboats
We know that 3-6 damage is effective agasint gunboats and based on the relationship of size/armor of the rest of the Umiak fleet gunboats would have about 80 armor if we take the low end of the Ratio.
It also wouldnt make sense that a ANtiGunboat design could only KILL a single gunboat per salvo.

Which means 80 armor is not effective agasint 3-6 damage so its not effective agasint the "LIGHT" weapons of a Terran Heavy Cruiser.
8 Heavy lasers 3-9

WarHammer carries
8 medium Blasters 3-6

Terran armor has NO point its mass to effectiveness is so horrible the ammount of damage it protects agasint is of no worth in Terran Vs Terran Battles even agasint the Lighest AntiShip weapon carried by other same class ship.
If it is effective, then most Loroi Weapons do jack to Umiak ships before even screens are considered.
and the engagement ranges where Loroi can actually do damage is inside Umiak weapon range where the Loroi get mauled.

Naval warfare during ww2 saw armor that was effective agasint most weapons that a ship of the same class could carry with Mainguns being exceptions.. and sometimes even then.

Terran armor values seem to need to be increased.
Not because Terran armor is anywhere near as good as Loroi/Umiak armor.. but because its Been stated Terran ships carry MORE armor due to lack of screens.. and the ammount of Armor in rating that Terran ships seems to be so low as not to be worth having at all..

Either that or Terrans shouldnt use any real ammounts of armor in the first place and instead go for more speed.
Armor that does nothing is nothing but deadweight.

Before you argue blah blah blah Loroi/Umiak would kill Terranships anyways.
This has nothing to do with Loroi/Umiak its a Terran Vs Terran ship effectiveness of armor.

Guess Arioch could just half the damage of all terran weapons that would work too.

[javcs]

You're making the assumption that Terran, Loroi, and Umiak armor materials are of equivalent defensive value for the same degree of application.

Terran armor is masses more and is thicker than Loroi or Umiak armor, thus, they're using more of it - but it's not as effective.

Loroi and Umiak armor materials are (presumably) of roughly similar efficacy for the same amount of armor.
Terran armor material is crap, relatively speaking.

It's like ... say ... the bullet-stopping capability of kevlar (Loroi or Umiak armor) compared to paper (Terran armor).
Either one will stop a bullet, sure. It's just that kevlar will stop a pistol round with a few layers that mass very little and are quite thin, whereas to stop that same pistol round, you're gonna need a couple inches worth of paper.
However, kevlar won't do much against a rifle round.
Railguns aren't a very accurate weapon at any sort of range - your target, presumably maneuvering more or less randomly is unlikely to be where you were aiming when the round gets out to range. However, a chunk of metal is fairly tough to stop, and even at the low velocity the guns impart, you're looking at a respectable amount of damage - 100kg moving at a relative velocity of 5kp/s (5000m/s), is ~.298 kilotons of kinetic energy.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

The Loroi doctrine allows them to concentrate their defenses and weapons forward. If the Loroi are in range to fire at the Umiak, they do not want to show their vulnerable tails to the enemy; I can't stress this enough. The above posted weapons table is out of date, though I have nothing better to show you, but it gives a basically accurate view of the damage potential of the various weapons at range... against normal defenses. Umiak plasma weapons are quite capable of hitting Loroi ships at 1 LS range, but are not effective at penetrating Loroi forward defenses at that range. If a Loroi ship turns its vulnerable rear quarter to the enemy at that range, this changes the equation considerably. Even a gunboat can cripple a Loroi battleship if it gets a shot up the tailpipe.

Aha! That would make sense. So it seems a big reason for the Loroi's superior range is a matter that their beam weapons can focus better over long distances. Not concentrated enough, and you won't do meaningful damage.

Finally, evasive maneuvers need to be considered. When you are within beam weapon range of the enemy, especially at longer ranges, constant change of acceleration vector is important to attempt to avoid being hit. This means you can't reliably accelerate 100% in your intended direction, or you make yourself an easier target.

Aha.This. and if you're going to be maneuvering evasively, you might as well orient your ship in a manner that allows it to shoot back.

Armor Values for Terran ships dont seem right.
and I will try to explain it a diffrent way.. then simply Terran ships would be protected agasint Terran weapons and railguns seem to be there main weapon and the armor wouldnt work.

You keep asserting that and I'm not sure what you're getting at with the railguns. Railguns have so little capacity to hit a moving target that I can't conceive of any captain imagining them being his primary weapons in an engagement. Further more is the fact that I don't think even the Umiak would be able to armor effectively against a 200 kg kinetic slug going at 6 km/s. Trying to armor against something with almost no chance of hitting you, but that's destructive enough that armoring against it is impossible doesn't make sense.



Also, Battleraptor. The Weapons table provided is years old, and wasn't made in relation to the armor/shield figures that we currently are seeing on the insider page. So trying to derive something based on that might get you most accurate picture of damage/armor dynamics. Also, the idea of ship armor on Terran ships might not be to protect from laser attacks at effective range, but at the weapons maximum range where it only does minimal damage.

[BattleRaptor]

You're making the assumption that Terran, Loroi, and Umiak armor materials are of equivalent defensive value for the same degree of application.

Terran armor is masses more and is thicker than Loroi or Umiak armor, thus, they're using more of it - but it's not as effective.

Didnt make any assumption, you didnt read my post and then made an assumption on what I was saying based on skimming maybe the first sentence.


Rosen_Ritter_1
The damage Tables are based on ENERGY not damage to armored foes.
One assumes double the armor rating assumes double the armor effectiveness.
If we are not assuming such a relationship then it could as easily be double the armor tripple the effectiveness.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Rosen_Ritter_1
The damage Tables are based on ENERGY not damage to armored foes.

No. It doesn't rate it in terms of energy. It rates it terms of points of damage. How those rates of damage relate to the new armor figures (or if they do at all, considering how old the weapons damage table is) is unknown.

One assumes double the armor rating assumes double the armor effectiveness.
If we are not assuming such a relationship then it could as easily be double the armor tripple the effectiveness.

Why would you assume that? Arioch has already stated that armor (at least for the Loroi/Umiak) is really more about dealing with damage that bleeds through the screens than to stand up by itself. So I don't think doubling your armor necessarily doubles how well protected you are.


And I'll reiterate again.

A:We don't know how relevant the old damage table values are to the new armor values, or if the damage tables are even relevant at all.

B:We don't know the ranges at which the Loroi medium blasters can be expected to reliably one shot Umiak gunboats.

C:The idea behind armor on a heavy cruiser might not be to allow it to survive a direct hit from a heavy laser fired from it's effective range. The idea could be to allow the ship to survive a heavy laser fired from more extreme distances where it would do substantially less damage than a heavy laser fired at effective range.

D: The Terran colonial authority viewed the most realistic combat to be against pirates, who probably wouldn't have equaled the Terran fleet. So the armor they have even if it might not be practical in a Terran VS Terran fleet action might be suitable for going against more weakly armed pirates.

[Wintermute]

Terran ships would be protected agasint Terran weapons and railguns seem to be there main weapon and the armor wouldnt work.

I'm not sure why you think this. This hasn't been mentioned anywhere insofar as I know. I also think it doesn't make sense to armor your ships against a weapon that both imparts an unblock-able amount of kinetic energy and also has beyond abysmal accuracy. The negatives from carrying that amount of armor would I think far outweigh the benefits, literally.

IT has been satated Terrans use MORE armor then the Loroi or even Umiak because they dont have shields.

Pretty sure it hasn't.

[Trantor]

Finally, evasive maneuvers need to be considered.

How about Jumps?
Facing a superior fleet at high speed, couldn´t jumping in right behind them be a useful tactic?

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Finally, evasive maneuvers need to be considered.

How about Jumps?
Facing a superior fleet at high speed, couldn´t jumping in right behind them be a useful tactic?

There's an entire insider article about this. I recall that it was basically, you can only jump into a system at certain points, and it's not really precise enough to drop you behind any particular point.

There's also the matter of coordination, considering that nobody has FTL tech.

[fredgiblet]

then simply Terran ships would be protected agasint Terran weapons and railguns seem to be there main weapon and the armor wouldnt work.

An America-class cruiser could cripple the Cry Of The Wind with a single salvo if it was close enough. Chances are good that an America-class cruiser could fuck up an ultra-heavy Umiak ship if it got close enough. There is no way for human ships to be armored enough to take a hit from a heavy mass driver and still be mobile. The best defense against mass drivers isn't armor, it's mobility, the effective ranges are so short on mass drivers that dodging is FAR more cost-effective than armor.

[Trantor]

How about Jumps?
Facing a superior fleet at high speed, couldn´t jumping in right behind them be a useful tactic?

There's an entire insider article about this. I recall that it was basically, you can only jump into a system at certain points, and it's not really precise enough to drop you behind any particular point.

Ah yes, the Gravity Wells! I remember! Thx, i´ll go and look it up.

[TrashMan]

You shouldn't really put any values under too much scrutiny.
Blaster (beam cannons) should have just as big range/damage problems as lasers, but the description mentions the Loroi found a way around it. If he chose to, he could have just as easily written that humans found ways to get rid of all friction in mass drivers...or something.

No. Not as easily. Since the premise for the story is that humanity is technologically inferior to the Loroi/Umiak.

That's one reason why I DO like sitting down and thinking about the Outsider background extensively. Because Airoch HAS managed to achieve a high level of consistency to his partially realistic tech.

Of course it wouldn 't make sense for his story, I'm just saying that he can find away around any technical/science problem if he wants to and it fits with his design.
Science if importanat and I love realism, but it's not really NECESSARY to allway follow it to the letter. The mass driver/blaster thing was just an example. Arioch could have easily made mass driver the most advanced weapon and give it to Loroi, and have humans with primitive blasters.

EDIT: Rosenritter? LoGH?

[Arioch]

The damage numbers in that old weapons table and the new armor rating numbers have nothing to do with each other.

However, it's true that a Terran heavy cruiser's armor wouldn't stand up very well to a mass driver hit, because the Terrans don't have anything that can stand up to that kind of damage. Even in the Terran realm of space combat (6G acceleration, ~10-30,000km ranges), it's hard to hit an accelerating target with a mass driver. The Terrans would use mass drivers a bit like the Umiak use torpedoes: en masse and with the intent more of influencing the target's behavior than of expecting hits.

[TrashMan]

Interesting to note that once you start fielding weapons with enough potency, no armor can catch up anymore.

Armor technology has fallen way below weapon tech. There really is no practical armor, short of unobtanium/handwavium that can protect you from things like nukes and advanced mass-drivers, or wave-looms.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

EDIT: Rosenritter? LoGH?

You know it Haven't gotten around to watching all of it, but been liking what I see. One of the better sci-fi anime out there.

(plus random screen caps. Dear lord! This series looks so stupid from the random screen caps!)

Armor technology has fallen way below weapon tech. There really is no practical armor, short of unobtanium/handwavium that can protect you from things like nukes and advanced mass-drivers, or wave-looms.

Hence people coming up with things like energy shields that could stand up to enemy damage.

[BattleRaptor]

Arioch
Well if the old damage tables are no longer relevent that changes things.

Because a Terran Heavy Cruiser that has less armor and no screens, carries more BEAM firepower based on them then a Loroi Vessal of the same size designed to take on ships that would seem to have around 80armor+Screens and destroy them on mass.