How Taimat Might Work (take it or leave it Arioch)

[Bamax]

As some already know I also frequent KSP forums (I am not Intellicom though).

Every now and then I find really interesting posts from those with science backgrounds.

By pure coincidence I think this guy may have made up an explanation for how Taimat fuel works... and we were not really discussing Outsider but I digress:




Quote

sevenperforce
sevenperforce
Posted 5 hours ago

 
On 12/16/2022 at 5:39 PM, intelliCom said:

I'm sorry, but my focus is on the explosive material in use, and not the mechanism. Let's just say there was a different mechanism utilising non-nuclear explosions. Could non-nuclear explosions be used as a viable propulsion, if not why? If such reasons as to 'why not' have no direct relation to the material in use, adjust them so they would work.

Rocket engines essentially are a continuous non-nuclear explosion. Technically they're deflagration rather than detonation (although, as @Shpaget points out, there is very promising research into continuous rotating detonation engines; in fact they have even flown test articles).

If your question, then, is whether explosive pulses can be a viable propulsion mechanism (through a pusher-plate or otherwise), then you need look no further than the V-1 Buzzbomb used in WWII by the pedants. It was the world's first operational cruise missile and was powered by an extremely simple pulsejet engine, using repeated fuel-air explosions where the fuel was gasoline). A pulsed detonation engine like this is quite simple and lightweight for the amount of thrust it produces, but it is much less efficient than a proper jet turbine engine. 

There are also a number of designs that use explosive pulses because we are unable to sustain a continuous explosion, like Z-pinch fusion. 

For non-nuclear explosions to be a viable propulsion mechanism with a pusher-plate arrangement, they would need to be (a) at least 165 times more energetic per unit mass than a hydrogen-oxygen reaction and (b) not be amenable to a traditional propulsion arrangement.

Example: suppose that scientists discover an exotic metastable state of superfluid liquid helium in which the atoms exhibit persistent quantum superposition such that a single atom can be host to several billion different degrees of freedom rather than the 3 degrees of freedom in a typical monatomic gas. This would allow you to pump almost infinite amounts of energy into the helium without increasing its temperature or pressure, making it an explosive with potency rivaled only by antimatter itself.

Ordinarily, if you wanted to use this for propulsion, you would simply have a big tank of this stuff connected to a small valve that would allow the metastable helium to enter a combustion chamber little by little, where it would lose its metastable nature and explode in the chamber. This would work well. However, maybe the metastable helium has a minimum volume requirement in order to stay stable, comprising such a quantity that the resulting explosion on destabilization would be vastly greater than what any chamber could withstand. In that case, you might need a pusher-plate or other pulsed propulsion setup.


My conculsion: Taimat may indeed be like sevenperforce described, the only difference being that you can fire it off like continually and do not have to rely on pulses.

Nonetheless because the fuel is so ridiculously energetic (on par with antimatter) you do not want to crash or blow up as it would be a big not a small boom.


Loroi scientists would have found this exotic state of helium and found a way to make it stable and thus Taimat fuel was born.


Take it or leave it Arioch. I am fully aware science is not the end all be all in scifi, I just wanted to let you know that... taimat is not... impossible IF you have the right type of fuel.

Sevenperforce merely described how it could possibly work.

[Keklas Rekobah]

The major component of Tiamat might well be what we know as ‘Handwavium’.

[Arioch]

It's handwavium, but it's not some kind of "chemical explosions are viable for 30 gee acceleration" handwavium.

Taimat is essentially an exotic alternative to antimatter. It's not chemical or nuclear; it annihilates almost completely on reaction which makes it a high percentage matter-to-energy conversion. That's really the only way you can get sustained 30 gee accelerations with large spacecraft.

My thought is that it's an exotic form of helium with unusual arrangements of quarks that makes it unstable but metastable... but I think the specifics are largely irrelevant to how it functions.

[Bamax]

It's handwavium, but it's not some kind of "chemical explosions are viable for 30 gee acceleration" handwavium.

Taimat is essentially an exotic alternative to antimatter. It's not chemical or nuclear; it annihilates almost completely on reaction which makes it a high percentage matter-to-energy conversion. That's really the only way you can get sustained 30 gee accelerations with large spacecraft.

My thought is that it's an exotic form of helium with unusual arrangements of quarks that makes it unstable but metastable... but I think the specifics are largely irrelevant to how it functions.

Irrelavent? To the story yes. Worldbuilding? Depends.

On whether you want it to be so... I say this because I have fascination with the implications of a particular technology, knowing that if you can do such and such, then logically you should also be able to do this or that.

It is a rabbit hole of sorts but it entertains me inasmuch it shows the possibilities and limitations of a given scifi civilization based on their technology alone.

I will ask the physics guy about the implications and if he says anything interesting I'll post it here.

[Keklas Rekobah]

My thought is that it's an exotic form of helium with unusual arrangements of quarks that makes it unstable but metastable... but I think the specifics are largely irrelevant to how it functions.

This could make for an interesting backstory, or maybe just a minor footnote in Loroi history.

Members of the Gallen caste discover the means to achieve sustained hydrogen fusion.  Under certain conditions (however) the energy yield is greater than expected.  Investigations reveal a substance with the same molecular weight and absorption/emission spectrum of Helium-3, but with a nuclear configuration that does not conform to ordinary Helium-3 (the quarks are not 'right' somehow).

Handling this new metastable substance required care far greater than the handling of nitroglycerine (although the basic protocols are the same).  Several facilities and hundreds of Loroi were vaporized before further refinements could be made to the process that produced what is now called 'Tiamat' (more stable than meta, but still highly explosive).

There is still a lot of handwavium involved, but it still makes sense to me.

[Bamax]

My thought is that it's an exotic form of helium with unusual arrangements of quarks that makes it unstable but metastable... but I think the specifics are largely irrelevant to how it functions.

This could make for an interesting backstory, or maybe just a minor footnote in Loroi history.

Members of the Gallen caste discover the means to achieve sustained hydrogen fusion.  Under certain conditions (however) the energy yield is greater than expected.  Investigations reveal a substance with the same molecular weight and absorption/emission spectrum of Helium-3, but with a nuclear configuration that does not conform to ordinary Helium-3 (the quarks are not 'right' somehow).

Handling this new metastable substance required care far greater than the handling of nitroglycerine (although the basic protocols are the same).  Several facilities and hundreds of Loroi were vaporized before further refinements could be made to the process that produced what is now called 'Tiamat' (more stable than meta, but still highly explosive).

There is still a lot of handwavium involved, but it still makes sense to me.

Loroi by that measure must think fusion anything is quaint... antique.

Since even their disosable missiles use Tiamat rather than fusion lol.

But guess who STILL uses fusion?

Humanity probably... likely on older vessels. The Bellamarine may have used antimatter for it's sublight drive I don't know.

[Arioch]

Members of the Gallen caste discover the means to achieve sustained hydrogen fusion.  Under certain conditions (however) the energy yield is greater than expected.  Investigations reveal a substance with the same molecular weight and absorption/emission spectrum of Helium-3, but with a nuclear configuration that does not conform to ordinary Helium-3 (the quarks are not 'right' somehow).

I think it's unlikely that the Loroi were the ones that discovered it.

[Cthulhu]

Loroi by that measure must think fusion anything is quaint... antique.

Since even their disosable missiles use Tiamat rather than fusion lol.

But guess who STILL uses fusion?

The Loroi, as well as most other advanced civilizations still use fusion reactors to generate taimat. This substance is not available naturally, you know? They don't have the Mannadi POWs mine the stuff in labor camps, it is produced artificially. Therefore, it's technically not even "fuel", even though the difference is purely academic, or rather economical.

1. "Fuel" would refer to a substance refined from energy-rich matter, like gasoline from oil, or even helium/hydrogen fusion fuel.
2. "Energy storage medium" refers to a substance which is mechanically, chemically or physically altered to store potential energy. This can be a battery, synthetic fuel or even a bottle of pressurized air.

The premise is that fuel production is a net positive operation. You take something which is already energy-rich, and use a fraction of the potential energy output to refine it for better use, leaving you with a plus.

Any energy storage medium, on the other hand, means that you generate or collect energy first, then find a way to store it. This is fundamentally a net loss, since energy will be wasted during the conversion process. Taimat is exactly this, the Loroi generate energy with fusion, or collect it with solar panels, then use it to transmute normal matter into an exotic state.

The difference may sound trivial, but it is the crux why "renewable energy" is still far away from replacing conventional energy sources. We simply don't have a good (efficient, portable, scalable, constant) storage medium just yet, which makes the whole process too expensive.

Humanity probably... likely on older vessels. The Bellamarine may have used antimatter for it's sublight drive I don't know.

No, the Bellarmine was purely fusion-driven, just as any other Terran vessel. Otherwise, Alex couldn't have possibly survived the ship's foundering.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Members of the Gallen caste discover the means to achieve sustained hydrogen fusion.  Under certain conditions (however) the energy yield is greater than expected.  Investigations reveal a substance with the same molecular weight and absorption/emission spectrum of Helium-3, but with a nuclear configuration that does not conform to ordinary Helium-3 (the quarks are not 'right' somehow).

I think it's unlikely that the Loroi were the ones that discovered it.

Does this mean that more than one species has discovered Tiamat on their own?  Or does it mean that only one species did, and the rest copied, stole, or were given the technology?

[Arioch]

Members of the Gallen caste discover the means to achieve sustained hydrogen fusion.  Under certain conditions (however) the energy yield is greater than expected.  Investigations reveal a substance with the same molecular weight and absorption/emission spectrum of Helium-3, but with a nuclear configuration that does not conform to ordinary Helium-3 (the quarks are not 'right' somehow).

I think it's unlikely that the Loroi were the ones that discovered it.

Does this mean that more than one species has discovered Tiamat on their own?  Or does it mean that only one species did, and the rest copied, stole, or were given the technology?

Taimat has been independently developed multiple times, but in each case it quickly proliferated through nearly interstellar communities. In the case of the pre-Union nations it was first developed by the Barsam, but it was also independently developed by an unknown Umiak client state.

[Bamax]

I think it's unlikely that the Loroi were the ones that discovered it.

Does this mean that more than one species has discovered Tiamat on their own?  Or does it mean that only one species did, and the rest copied, stole, or were given the technology?

Taimat has been independently developed multiple times, but in each case it quickly proliferated through nearly interstellar communities. In the case of the pre-Union nations it was first developed by the Barsam, but it was also independently developed by an unknown Umiak client state.

The Barsam are like the Vulcans of your universe... pardoxically smart and seemingly the most likely to conquer or lead their corner of the galaxy and yet they do not. At best they play second fiddle to the Loroi.


I guess it means that above average intelligence is not an automatic route to power. You need ambition and a certain willlingness to take the huge risks both the Loroi and Umiak took that enabled them to both carve out their section of the galaxy.

Only successfully... since failure is disasterous... as both the Loroi and Umiak know all too well.


Sometimes the greater the risk the greater the reward is... sometimes. And I do not mean lotto tickets... those are a scam to keep the poor poorer.

[Keklas Rekobah]

So, the (non-canonical) report of a random Terran agent might go something like this . . .

Barsam scientists discover the means to achieve sustained hydrogen fusion. Under certain conditions (however) the energy yield is greater than expected. Investigations reveal a substance with the same molecular weight and absorption/emission spectrum of Helium-3, but with a nuclear configuration that does not conform to ordinary Helium-3 (the quarks are not 'right' somehow).

Handling this new metastable substance required care far greater than the handling of nitroglycerine (although the basic protocols are the same). Several facilities and hundreds of Barsam were vaporized before further refinements could be made to the process that produced what is now called 'Tiamat' (more stable than meta, but still highly explosive).

This technology was eventually shared with other members of the Loroi Union.

[Arioch]

The Barsam aren't especially smart or advanced, it's just that they have an unusually well-preserved cache of ancient records in the crypts beneath their capital on Justa. They're a bit like the clergy in medieval monasteries that were sitting on a pile of Classical texts all through the Dark Ages.

...if the monks were bears.

[Bamax]

The Barsam aren't especially smart or advanced, it's just that they have an unusually well-preserved cache of ancient records in the crypts beneath their capital on Justa. They're a bit like the clergy in medieval monasteries that were sitting on a pile of Classical texts all through the Dark Ages.

...if the monks were bears.

Huh? Did not know that.

Still...I dare say they are not as bold as either the Loroi or the Umiak who both are warlike enough to be the dominant powers in the known galaxy.

[Cthulhu]

Huh? Did not know that.

The Barsam have their own Insider page.

Still...I dare say they are not as bold as either the Loroi or the Umiak who both are warlike enough to be the dominant powers in the known galaxy.

The religion did transform their society into a somewhat pacifist one.

[SVlad]

A bit unrelated but do the word taimat is somehow related with tiamat?

[Arioch]

A bit unrelated but do the word taimat is somehow related with tiamat?

Not exactly; "taimat" was randomly assigned to the word "antimatter" by my language system, and I manually reassigned it to the then-called "Type-A Fuel." But part of the reason I liked it was both its similarity to "antimatter" as well as "Tiamat."