Page 216: Time to move!

[icekatze]

hi hi

If some interstellar civilization wanted to conduct experiments on a very short jump, and weren't afraid of wasting a bunch of money, perhaps they could find an extremely close binary star system and jump between the two. Given how many ships the Umiak were thought to lose in a deep jump, they'd probably lose a few before they made a successful jump, but it's probably not relevant to the story in the end.

The closest orbiting pair of stellar bodies I was able to find was a pair of neutron stars orbiting each other at approximately 1.8 solar radii apart. That's probably closer than necessary...

[Keklas Rekobah]

So no tactical zero-point jumps.  Drat.  I was hoping for a last resort suicide action where a jump field is overloaded, drawing (or only partially drawing) at least one enemy vessel into hyperspace, destroying them both. 

You'd have to be insanely close to the enemy vessel, at which point if you have the power to operate the jump drive, there are several much more reliable tactics to pursue (such as collision, self-detonation, splashing the target with your engine exhaust, or simply engaging with normal weapons).

I get that.  Still, when Khan (aboard the crippled Reliant) quoted Melville just before detonating the Genesis device, it made for great cinematic drama.

"To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee." -- Herman Melville (1819-1891), as Captain Ahab, in Moby Dick

[Mayhem]

It's not even that complicated. All you have to do is sync clocks with a ship or station in the departure system before you jump, then jump back and compare clocks.

An even simpler method (which I envisioned for Traveller a couple of decades ago) is a "Zero-Point Jump" -- jumping to the same (or nearby) spatial coordinates within the same system and comparing the onboard chronometer's time to an external standard. This gave an indication of the relative efficiency of a ship's jump drive -- the greater the difference, the greater the need for better 'tuning' of the jump drive.

@ARIOCH: Does this work in the Soiaverse, or is it absolutely necessary to cross interstellar space from one gravity well to another (twice) before a chronometer comparison could be made?

You can't make jumps within a star system, because the curvature of space is dominated by the gravity of the star; there isn't a well deep enough to pull you back out again. If you activate the jump generators without having escape velocity from the star of the system you're in, you either a) won't make the transition into hyperspace, or b) you'll enter hyperspace and be drawn into the star.

Now I am thinking about binary (or larger) star systems.
If the stars suitably sized and separated they should each have individual jump zones with the ability to jump between stars in the same system.

Insider says: Optimal jump distance (both entry and exit) from a Sun-type star is at about 4-5 AU from the star (Jupiter orbit distance)

If we consider our nearest neighbours Alpha Centauri, we have a triple star system with 2 sun-type stars (A & B) and a red dwarf (C).
A (1.1 sol mass) & B (0.9 sol mass) have a separation varying between 11.2 & 35.6 AU.
C (0.12 sol mass) has a separation from AB varying between ~4000 & ~12000 AU

So there should be jump paths between each of these stars and A & B are sufficiently close (1 AU is ~ 8 light minutes) for an third party observer in the system to get good measurements of the jump time. (e.g. 2 ships in convoy, same velocity, same vector, sync clocks; 1 jumps the other watches the entry & exit flashes; compare clocks and positions by radio)

You can even watch your own entry flash! (Once you exit your entry flash will catch up hours later.)

Fun things I found looking into this include T-Type orbits & Nu Scorpii a septuple star system (talk about a hyperspace navigational hazard)

[Voitan]

Otherwise, I'm curious if anyone actually can see in hyperspace, or does everyone have a reflexive action that causes them to shut their eyes, and would there be any significant danger if anyone were to be able to physically see anything in hyperspace if by some terrible fate, they were able to keep their eyes open. Because I'm not convinced Hyperspace is at all empty. I would be extremely skeptical as a person traveling through it, and probably write fictional horror stories about it.

You can see the interior of your ship and its occupants, because they're traveling at the same velocity as you -- I think that if causal connections weren't preserved as according to general relativity, your body would fly apart -- but you can't see anything outside the ship, as you're outrunning the photons. If there was a lot of light in hyperspace, then theoretically you should be able to perceive a small amount of it as a point source in the direction of motion, but this has never been observed.

Ok, so we can physically see the interior of the ship because of in-cabin lighting from the ship, lacking any bubble effect that prevents anything escaping from the ship, any lights going out view ports or simply lights on the ship exterior would be like a deep sea fish with its lure shining in the abyss. Then the assailing visions from Hyperspace really is just like a nightmarish scene from Event Horizon. Are people able to physically move inside the ship during Hyperspace travel? Has anything attempted a spacewalk on the hull of a ship during Hyperspace?

[Arioch]

Now I am thinking about binary (or larger) star systems.
If the stars suitably sized and separated they should each have individual jump zones with the ability to jump between stars in the same system.

If the two masses are large enough and sufficiently separated, yes. There will be a minimum distance for a given mass, since the ship needs to both escape the departure star's well and hit the target of the destination star's well with the ballistic trajectory.

I'm not prepared to say what that minimum distance is, but I have the feeling that you might be able to jump from αCen A to B near apoapsis, but not periapsis.

Are people able to physically move inside the ship during Hyperspace travel? Has anything attempted a spacewalk on the hull of a ship during Hyperspace?

You can move, but you can't move very far in a fraction of a second.

[Sweforce]

The game Frontier, the sequel to Elite have a similar jump drive system. You can visit the Centauri system but, well the coloni orbit Proxima Centauri and jumping into the system arrival are at a "jumpzone" relative to the two central stars. There are no "micro jump" to reach Proxima so it is a VERY very long trip to get there on normal space engines.

Now for Outsider I do believe that there are some jumps the more advanced civilizations consider as viable where the more low tech humanity cannot get a lock. That is unless humanity behave like Samantha Carter in Stargate who built her own dialling device without the numerous safeguards proper DhD's have.

[gaerzi]

The game Frontier, the sequel to Elite have a similar jump drive system. You can visit the Centauri system but, well the coloni orbit Proxima Centauri and jumping into the system arrival are at a "jumpzone" relative to the two central stars. There are no "micro jump" to reach Proxima so it is a VERY very long trip to get there on normal space engines.

Difference is that in Frontier, you only need to escape the planet's gravity well before you go hyperspace. (In fact you can even jump before, but it's illegal due to hyperspace clouds being radioactive hazards). It's only the exit points from hyperspace/entry points in a system that you can't control with precision.

Also Frontier is a game that frustrated me a lot because it had a system you could reach that was a "contact binary star" (W Ursae Majoris IIRC) but of course it wasn't coded in the game so if you managed to actually go there, you'd just crash the game. Man how I wanted to actually see that star, and how frustrating that we couldn't.

[Demetrious]

Can't believe I didn't notice that Fireblade's hair works with her pressure helmet before this. Neat.

[Bamax]

I think it almost goes without saying that the Historian won't remain idle when the Loroi spring into action.

He already said Alex should not trust the Loroi, and he may be even partially right.

It's obvious Fireblade does not trust Alex, and the moment he gives her a justfiable reason I reckon she would telepathically crush him dead..... with a valid reason to tell Tempo.

Nonetheless if Alex has to choose between trusting the Historian and ditching the Loroi versus sticking with the Loroi.... I think that will be reason enough for Fireblade to be like, "See?! He's trying to escape from us.... he CANNOT be allowed to escape."


That alone may be reason enoigh for her to knock him out if not try to kill him.

I mean the choice seems obvious at least from a male POV.

The Loroi are pretty cute space elves with superpowers who want your help versus a freaky looking alien who says you should trust him more than them.

Unless Alex had PTSD from a series of really bad girlfriends betraying his trust he should have no problem making a choice here.

[avatar576]

I think it almost goes without saying that the Historian won't remain idle when the Loroi spring into action.

He already said Alex should not trust the Loroi, and he may be even partially right.

It's obvious Fireblade does not trust Alex, and the moment he gives her a justfiable reason I reckon she would telepathically crush him dead..... with a valid reason to tell Tempo.

Nonetheless if Alex has to choose between trusting the Historian and ditching the Loroi versus sticking with the Loroi.... I think that will be reason enough for Fireblade to be like, "See?! He's trying to escape from us.... he CANNOT be allowed to escape."


That alone may be reason enoigh for her to knock him out if not try to kill him.

I mean the choice seems obvious at least from a male POV.

The Loroi are pretty cute space elves with superpowers who want your help versus a freaky looking alien who says you should trust him more than them.

Unless Alex had PTSD from a series of really bad girlfriends betraying his trust he should have no problem making a choice here.

I think if I were Alex, I'd have left the iPad in the shuttle. If they're successful in capturing the ship, he'll have plenty of time to go back for it. If not, it won't make any difference. The Historian has given no reasons to substantiate its warning, so I'd feel very reticent about bringing it along to keep tabs on me and the Loroi. The advice it gave was generic common sense that would apply in any situation. Right now, the objective is to survive. I'd feel better with a weapon in my hand and surrounded by armed warrior space elves who have a vested interest in ensuring my survival than I would huddled in a corner of the shuttle alone and unarmed.
Also, if I were Alex, I'd have used the time before the jump to try and get a bit more info about the Loroi plans to capture the ship...instead of taking a nap. You know, like, "How do you plan to do it?" and, "If I agree to help, what will you need me to do?" The last thing I'd want to be doing is charging headlong into an enemy ship, outnumbered 20:1 or more, and not knowing what I'm supposed to shoot or when.
Regarding Fireblade...From the reader's perspective, it's clear that not poking the beehive so much would be in Alex's bests interests so that she might feel less tempted to think dangerous thoughts. But hey, he's 20 years old and greener than grass. Right now he has a weapon and a chance to prove that he's trustworthy with it. All he really has to do is make sure to keep it pointed the right way. If Fireblade doesn't trust him after this, then she never, ever will.

[raistlin34]

I think it almost goes without saying that the Historian won't remain idle when the Loroi spring into action.

He already said Alex should not trust the Loroi, and he may be even partially right.

It's obvious Fireblade does not trust Alex, and the moment he gives her a justfiable reason I reckon she would telepathically crush him dead..... with a valid reason to tell Tempo.

Nonetheless if Alex has to choose between trusting the Historian and ditching the Loroi versus sticking with the Loroi.... I think that will be reason enough for Fireblade to be like, "See?! He's trying to escape from us.... he CANNOT be allowed to escape."


That alone may be reason enoigh for her to knock him out if not try to kill him.

I mean the choice seems obvious at least from a male POV.

The Loroi are pretty cute space elves with superpowers who want your help versus a freaky looking alien who says you should trust him more than them.

Unless Alex had PTSD from a series of really bad girlfriends betraying his trust he should have no problem making a choice here.

Except Alex is mature enough to make a choice not based in appearances or his male drives. Right now, he doesn't have much verified intel from any faction to take permanent sides.

[Kelvandos]

No but he does have enough common sense to only point that weapon at the ugly bugs..and not the hot space elf. the only other major unknown for him is he's never been on one of these ships. So as long as he stays close with the rest of them (not getting dumba...lost) he should be okay and be able to fire when necessary. I look at him as fulfilling a more tactical role moving forward, despite not knowing the full layout of the ship, he'll be able to gather Intel as he goes and Supply that to the rest of the team with his tactical spin. I think here's where the humans are going to greatly impress the them. Knowledge and skill a male of their species would never have plus "clarity of thought" that they cannot even dream of. Yet, to them, with a alien twist cunningly effective strategy, humans have value. Remember he is a very good chess player if I remember correctly. I think his time to shine tactically speaking is going to show shortly. Speaking on Clarity of thought, I wonder if they have Legends of their great masters of sanza able to put up a lotai similar to humans. Thats why they know of "it" but not know how to defeat "it" yet, because only a great Master could.


Also, is there an off chance this could be orchestrated to test his loyalty? A test to see how truthful he is and trustworthy is before moving forward. They had stated other neutral Nations had betrayed them in the past, what if this is a similar way of testing that they use on first contact. A trust building experience if you will.

[Demarquis]

I no longer remember why, but I have an impression that at least some of the Loroi suspect that Alex (and by extension, humanity) is somehow connected to the new Umiak ability to avoid their farseers (if that in fact is what is happening). It must seem like a very questionable coincidence to some of them, and maybe Fireblade is one. If he mentally breaks through to her, however, that might attitude might undergo a 180 reversal. She would make a powerful ally.

The Historian claimed, IIRC, that the Loroi have withheld some information from Alex, but I don't remember anymore if it specified what type of information that was exactly. I also seem to recall from somewhere that the mere existence of Humanity somehow contradicts some core beliefs of Loroi traditionalists, but I can't remember which beliefs those were.

I guess I need to go back and re-read it all, again.

[Krulle]

I no longer remember why, but I have an impression that at least some of the Loroi suspect that Alex (and by extension, humanity) is somehow connected to the new Umiak ability to avoid their farseers (if that in fact is what is happening). It must seem like a very questionable coincidence to some of them, and maybe Fireblade is one.

Not Fireblade mentions this: https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider066.html

The Historian claimed, IIRC, that the Loroi have withheld some information from Alex, but I don't remember anymore if it specified what type of information that was exactly.

This I could not find. But on page 156 (https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider156.html ) the PocketHistorian TM gives his warning that the Loroi are not his friends.

I also seem to recall from somewhere that the mere existence of Humanity somehow contradicts some core beliefs of Loroi traditionalists, but I can't remember which beliefs those were.

Well, the Barsam Mozim alleges this: https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider065.html
The Loroi themselves believe to be the descendents of the Soia, who were known for their telepathy.
The Humans seem to be proof that the Loroi do have a template species and therefore are not "what is left of the originals and therefore the born leaders of the Union".
That was mentioned multiple times on the forums, and not directly in the comic.


Now you have the direct passages I could think of towards what you mention.
Have fun re-reading.

[avatar576]

Also, is there an off chance this could be orchestrated to test his loyalty? A test to see how truthful he is and trustworthy is before moving forward. They had stated other neutral Nations had betrayed them in the past, what if this is a similar way of testing that they use on first contact. A trust building experience if you will.

I don't think so. For starters, he hasn't declared his loyalty to them yet, not for himself or on behalf of humanity. So there is nothing to test yet. For another, there have to be a hundred other less dangerous and less convoluted ways to test his honesty. They could simply ask him something they already know and gauge his truthfulness on that. Asking him about something they found in the wreckage of his ship, for example.

Unless it's all a holodeck simulation, or an incredibly elaborate illusion created by Tempo...but I think the current situation is just what it appears to be -- a fight for survival to get their new alien ambassador to relative safety.

[Spacefrog]

The side effects of hyper-space travel, reminds me of the hyperspace travel from Isacc Asimows Escape! (part of I, robot) Where travelers actuality are dead during the jump.
Whether the visions are glimpses from the beyond, the brain trying to cope or something entirely different, is probably going to be less ambiguous here though.

It would be interesting to know, if the Loroi have a similar response or if they could feel Alex' response to jumping.

[Demarquis]

"They could simply ask him something they already know and gauge his truthfulness on that. Asking him about something they found in the wreckage of his ship, for example."

Pretty sure they already did this. I can't think of a way that they could test his intentions that all of them would believe. Especially while under attack.

[sunphoenix]

Great pages...can't wait to see the new ones completed and in color!

[Keklas Rekobah]

"They could simply ask him something they already know and gauge his truthfulness on that. Asking him about something they found in the wreckage of his ship, for example."

Pretty sure they already did this. I can't think of a way that they could test his intentions that all of them would believe. Especially while under attack.

Beryl did ask about Alex's data pad (the one recovered from the Bellarmine), but did not seem to express surprise when she examined it.

I wonder who it originally belonged to, or if it was just a general issue item.