Loroi Women Versus Human Women... As Wives

[Keklas Rekobah]

There are instances of morpohologically identical species on Earth having so little DNA in common that they are classified as completely different species (most are plants, however).  It is not beyond reason that two species evolving on different worlds might look the same (or similar) and still have different DNA.

Loroi blood is not iron-based, and their normal body temp is about 15°C lower than that of Terrans.  Some of their foods are antagonistic toward our physiology, as well.  All of this implies different metabolic processes, which in turn implies different DNA, at least in the mitochondria.

Do Loroi have mitochondria?  If so, then our common "template" would have come about sometime after cells and mitochondria entered into their symbiosis.  If not, then our template would have evolved after the Soia-Liron template.

Of course, this is all speculative until Arioch gives us a complete genetic and bio-chemical analysis for each of the Soia-Loren species'.

[Bamax]

Which Arioch won't do... since explaining the impossible with the possible in detail sooner or later leads to explaining the impossible with the impossible... which leads to a fantasy background on par with lovecratian or LOTR mythos.

Better to not go there... it's like going down a rabbit hole that never ends... and our story is now.. so focusing too much on the past is counterproductive... unless you intend a cash cow like star wars making prequels forever

[Demarquis]

I will say that this is a different and creative approach to the "human-looking" aliens trope in fiction. They were molded to look like us, that's all (and probably behave like us, since possession of a body type isn't very useful without the behavior patterns that go with it). Perhaps it was some junior Soia-Liron's science project.

[Bamax]

And maybe some of the Loroi superpowers were just native Soia traits that were passed down?

[Tamri]

I will say that this is a different and creative approach to the "human-looking" aliens trope in fiction. They were molded to look like us, that's all (and probably behave like us, since possession of a body type isn't very useful without the behavior patterns that go with it). Perhaps it was some junior Soia-Liron's science project.

Then, rather, this project was titled as "how these creatures will look after thousands of years, at the same time screwing telepathy to them and transferring them to the basis of our biochemistry."

Liron were clearly good at guessing.

[Gudo]

I will say that this is a different and creative approach to the "human-looking" aliens trope in fiction. They were molded to look like us, that's all (and probably behave like us, since possession of a body type isn't very useful without the behavior patterns that go with it). Perhaps it was some junior Soia-Liron's science project.

Then, rather, this project was titled as "how these creatures will look after thousands of years, at the same time screwing telepathy to them and transferring them to the basis of our biochemistry."

Liron were clearly good at guessing.

The Wiki says fossil evidence for anatomically modern humans shows up around 300,000 years ago, tracking roughly with the end of the Soia. Assuming Loroi were modified from humans available at that time, modern Loroi should still look very similar to ancient Loroi, even considering the shorter generations. Even interbreeding between Homo Sapiens, Neanderthals and Denisovans has not significantly changed the human form in that time. It's not that the Soia-Liron were good at guessing, it's that Darwinian natural selection isn't as fast artificial selection or genetic engineering.

There are instances of morpohologically identical species on Earth having so little DNA in common that they are classified as completely different species (most are plants, however). It is not beyond reason that two species evolving on different worlds might look the same (or similar) and still have different DNA.

There's way too much written about "template species" for that not to be what's going on. If humans and Loroi are not related in that way (either one based off the other or both based off a 3rd proto-human) then Chekhov will rise from his grave, grab his gun, and come knocking.

Besides, humans and Loroi aren't just similar, they are essentially identical. Blood and pigmentation being the notable difference. Add in that 300,000 years is not enough time for humans (and possibly Loroi as well) to have noticeably changed anatomically, and you should be able to rule out convergent evolution.

Loroi blood is not iron-based, and their normal body temp is about 15°C lower than that of Terrans. Some of their foods are antagonistic toward our physiology, as well. All of this implies different metabolic processes, which in turn implies different DNA, at least in the mitochondria.

The "Loroi Wiafus die due to uncontrollable necrosis" hypothesis isn't predicated being genetically or metabolically similar to humans. In fact, I suggested the metabolic difference would actually endanger the Loroi (body temperature too low to regulate human microbes, fever response inffective at stopping infection.) Bananas, horseshoe crabs, and humans all have very different genetics and metabolisms but they all still rot. If Loroi bodies are made of different arrangements of mostly the same proteins and amino acids, then Loroi bodies will still look like food to fungi. Not that this is a story problem; space faring civilizations at this tech level will be well aware of the potential problem. And the Loroi are apparently confident in their antimicrobial therapeutics.

Is there Word of God on that somewhere? Not saying it isn't so, I just took the opposite implication.

To be clear, I meant Word of God on if the "template species" relationship means "created from scratch, but with careful attention paid to copy even the flaws and inefficiencies" or if that relationships means "modified from existing stock." I think it's the later. The first option means you have to justify the Soia deliberately creating sub-optimal designs while the second means you only have to justify the Soia being OK with designs that are "good enough."

Despite their outward similarity, Loroi and humans are very different biochemically and genetically.

What does "very different genetically" means, exactly?... If the Loroi were derived from humans, they would not be described as being "very different genetically".

Yeah, phrases like "very different" are qualitative and depend on context so they're not that helpful. But the hypothesis doesn't depend on a degree of genetic similarity, but on a degree of biochemical similarity. And considering how similar the forms of the two species are, and what I think the "template species" relationship means, I would eat my hat and live stream it if humans and Loroi turn out to be made of mostly different stuff.

I mean, if you're going to engineer a new species from scratch, why then would you also go through the effort of making it physically suspiciously similar to an existing species?

We do not know their motives. It's not just humans, we know they went and imitated other species, as we have the Barsam and the Nibiren. We can only extrapolate that the Neridi are also the imitation of another native species, one that might be extinct now, or that remains undiscovered. But for all we know, it could have been art... Ultimately, the motivation of the Soia-Liron doesn't matter...

Solid points. I'm reminded of a phrase that pops up sometimes when talking about alien or blue-orange morality: "We don't tame seals because we think balancing balls on noses is useful." There really is a time for function to follow form.

Speculation: Terrans and the Soya-Loroi group may be able to trace their ancestry back to the same template, much like humans and apes have a common ancestor without having descended/evolved one from the other.

Never thought of that till I read your post, but I don't see why the true template species couldn't have been some proto-human. That would mean both the human and Loroi are unique among Soia-Liron species; Loroi are the sole known telepathic species and humans are the sole known telepathically inert species. The differences between the two would then be explained as being prerequisites for their respective telepathic abilities and the similarities explained as inherited from the template.

This bodes poorly for the infected waifu theory though, as it would imply a high degree of chemical similarities.

Loroi, in turn, live in the biosphere, in the overwhelming majority built on a different biochemistry. There are no terrestrial bacteria there. There are no earthly protozoa. There are no terrestrial plants and certainly no terrestrial animals...First of all, terrestrial viruses are absolutely safe for loroi. Because viruses can only interact with certain types of cell membranes and intracellular mechanisms ... which, for obvious reasons, you can hardly find in Loroi.

I agree 100% on viruses. But I was talking more about fungi/bacteria/protozoa. As you say, Loroi have had zero exposure to the terrestrial biosphere, so if Loroi are vulnerable to terrestrial microorganisms, they certain to be immunologicaly naive. But we can safely expect off screen drugs to mean that a civilization ending human-Loroi pandemic will not be a plot point.

Secondly, since loroi and other types of Soya-Liron groups were created artificially, their creators probably knew about all the "pitfalls", some of which you raised in your thread. And it is likely that they have introduced mechanisms and algorithms into their creations that allow them to effectively deal with these problems.

Which?

We do not know. And if I were Jim, I wouldn't go into such questions. Trying to explain the structure of a hyperdrive in conventionally "hard" fiction has never been a good idea, even if you are fluent in the topic, which is unlikely.

There should be a hyperdrive, but let the reader figure out the subtleties of its device.

I actually expect some form of answer to the question of why the Loroi exist and look the way they do. Outsider has never been particularly hard science fiction so I don't expect a deep dive into the genetic engineering weeds. But I do expect a light to be shone the relationship between the Soia, Loroi, and humans. Obviously not in chapter 3, but eventually.

[Keklas Rekobah]

There are instances of morpohologically identical species on Earth having so little DNA in common that they are classified as completely different species (most are plants, however). It is not beyond reason that two species evolving on different worlds might look the same (or similar) and still have different DNA.

There's way too much written about "template species" for that not to be what's going on. If humans and Loroi are not related in that way (either one based off the other or both based off a 3rd proto-human) then Chekhov will rise from his grave, grab his gun, and come knocking.  Besides, humans and Loroi aren't just similar, they are essentially identical. Blood and pigmentation being the notable difference. Add in that 300,000 years is not enough time for humans (and possibly Loroi as well) to have noticeably changed anatomically, and you should be able to rule out convergent evolution.

This assumes that human evolution began in the Soia era (~300 ky ago).  Why not the Dreiman era, or even the Fenrias or Bulan eras?  The original humanoid "template" may have existed during any of those eras in other places in the galaxy, undergone forced environmental adaptations (e.g., genetic engineering), seeded on a variety of worlds (including Earth), and undergone free-range evolution.

(Just as a side note, the Traveller RPG envisions a Final War among the Ancients about 300,000 years ago, after they had abducted humans and canines, adapted them for different environments, and seeded them on over two-dozen worlds in Known Space, which would be coreward of the Tithris Gap IF the two fictional universes were laid out on the same map.)

[Demarquis]

We have strong evidence that humans (and our ancestors) evolved on Earth.

[Keklas Rekobah]

We have strong evidence that humans (and our ancestors) evolved on Earth.

Sure, in reality.  I am referring to the "Soiaverse", where apparent parallel evolution has produced other humanoid species on other worlds.

By "Humanoid", I mean having two legs, two arms ending in manipulative structures, a torso encasing vital organs, and a head encasing a brain and carrying sensory organs.

[Arioch]

Humans are very obviously a local evolutionary development of Earth's ecology, both in reality and in the Outsider canon.

[Keklas Rekobah]

That settles that! Thanks, Arioch! So...

* Terrans are neither the template for another species, nor is another species the template for Terrans.

* Parallel evolution can produce humanoid forms that are not interfertile and that have incompatible biochemistries.

[Gudo]

Terrans are neither the template for another species...

Does not follow from:

Humans are very obviously a local evolutionary development of Earth's ecology, both in reality and in the Outsider canon.

Anatomically modern humans existed at the same time as the Soia, so it remains conceivable for the Soia to have discovered humans and used them as a template (whatever that means.) What is ruled out by Word of God is the possibility that a third proto-human species is the template for both homo sapiens and Loroi. Well, I guess it also rules out the possibility that the Loroi are the template species, but there's no way anybody could've seriously advanced that hypothesis.

[Keklas Rekobah]

Anything that does not follow from what Arioch said can be completely disregarded.

[Arioch]

Humans are very obviously a local evolutionary development of Earth's ecology, both in reality and in the Outsider canon.

That settles that! Thanks, Arioch! So...

* Terrans are neither the template for another species, nor is another species the template for Terrans.

* Parallel evolution can produce humanoid forms that are not interfertile and that have incompatible biochemistries.

I don't see how you get that from what I said.

Modern molecular anthropology allows us to track individual genes and mutations all the way back to some of the earliest Earth organisms; we can clearly see genes in humans that are also in very distantly related organisms, like plants and arthropods and extremophile bacteria, demonstrating that we all descended from the same primitive organisms. What this means is that humans can't be the descendants of aliens or engineered by aliens... it does not mean that aliens can't be descended from humans, or that an engineered alien species can't have been copied from humans.

Larry Niven's Ringworld setting postulates that humans are directly descended from the Pak (the species that built the Ringworld); that Homo habilis were actually aliens transplanted on Earth. This was pretty absurd even in 1970 before DNA had been sequenced, as it would require that an alien species was somehow physically identical to Earth primates that also existed at the same time.

I guess it doesn't really matter if an SF milieu deviates from what we know to be true, as long as it's internally consistent (it doesn't bother me that Heinlein's stories had Martians), but for some reason the Niven Pak thing always rubbed me the wrong way. I guess as science advances, nearly all SF will be proven wrong in some details. Especially in the coming decades as astronomers map more and more nearby planetary systems.

[Bamax]

Humans are very obviously a local evolutionary development of Earth's ecology, both in reality and in the Outsider canon.

That settles that! Thanks, Arioch! So...

* Terrans are neither the template for another species, nor is another species the template for Terrans.

* Parallel evolution can produce humanoid forms that are not interfertile and that have incompatible biochemistries.

I don't see how you get that from what I said.

Modern molecular anthropology allows us to track individual genes and mutations all the way back to some of the earliest Earth organisms; we can clearly see genes in humans that are also in very distantly related organisms, like plants and arthropods and extremophile bacteria, demonstrating that we all descended from the same primitive organisms. What this means is that humans can't be the descendants of aliens or engineered by aliens... it does not mean that aliens can't be descended from humans, or that an engineered alien species can't have been copied from humans.

Larry Niven's Ringworld setting postulates that humans are directly descended from the Pak (the species that built the Ringworld); that Homo habilis were actually aliens transplanted on Earth. This was pretty absurd even in 1970 before DNA had been sequenced, as it would require that an alien species was somehow physically identical to Earth primates that also existed at the same time.

I guess it doesn't really matter if an SF milieu deviates from what we know to be true, as long as it's internally consistent (it doesn't bother me that Heinlein's stories had Martians), but for some reason the Niven Pak thing always rubbed me the wrong way. I guess as science advances, nearly all SF will be proven wrong in some details. Especially in the coming decades as astronomers map more and more nearby planetary systems.

To me virtually all scifi is mainly about 'what if' and alternate histories.

The very definition of the word story is merely the retelling of a sequence of events... no matter how dry and boring or lively and entertaining the passage reads.

Scifi explores what would be if such and such were reality, not so much what could be... although at timesvhf it is succesful in foretelling that too.


Really though, I do not think scifi is good at foreteling anything over a century away. At best it may foretell a century or less.

Human nature hardly changes, only our technology. You can take a jungle tribesman and adapt them to city life in a relatively short period of time.... so long one can speak to them in their language.

I read an IRL story abut an eastern european girl known as the 'dog girl'.

Her parents neglected her so bad at 3 that she sought companionship with and lived with dogs who raised her till she was 8.

Despite that, she lives a normal life now.

I do not want to know what food she survived off of in the wild... but apparently the human body is a lot tougher than it appears at surviving lol.

The woman looks normal too.

[Demarquis]

I can see the very general "humanoid" body-form (bi-pedal, two arms, one head, vision-centered, obvious omnivore) arising independently on many different planets, since after all it arose here many times. But I wouldn't necessarily want to marry an Australopithicus Robustus.