Page 214: Ready for boarding action!

[Bamax]

Alex is obligated to assist the Loroi because if the plan fails, the bugs will blow the ship up because of fearing the teidar/mizol combo.

Doing nothing by being neutral is.... not helpful right now for staying alive.

[Krulle]

There's a lot of KE involved, but the gun is still quite weighty, while the projectile is infinitesimally light.

The single projectile particle will have a small mass, but to be effective, you'll need quite a few projectile particles, and adding all these impulses of all the particles, the pulse WILL have quite some energy to propel the combined mass, which will have recoil effects (actio et reactio). No matter how "negligible" you think it is, the hand is trying to hold steady a gun, which does create a force not entirely in line with the point where the hand holds the weapon, thus the hand *will* be moved before it can compensate for the force.

Another question is, whether the pulse will have left the barrel before the barrel changed its alignment noticeably, or whether the pulse moves so fast that it won't matter (much) for the aiming of the shot.


If it has non-negligible recoil effects, we might get to see it in one of the following 3 pages (especially in microgravity environments).

SpoilerShow

, so in half a year or so
[/pessimism]
Arioch has become much faster than that, but seeing we have December, it may still happen only next year. But early to mid 1st quarter.

[Demarquis]

The recoil of the gun is equivalent to the acceleration of a spaceship drive. Low mass high thrust drives (which is what a particle beam would be) are known to have very low acceleration (even though they can achieve very high speeds given time and sufficient reaction mass). A particle beam gun would have discernibly less recoil (equal and opposite acceleration) than a gunpowder weapon of similar energy.

[Tamri]

All this sounds clever, but, firstly, the main characteristic of recoil is the impulse, which for any number of particles will be incomparably lower than that of a bullet, even without for the impulse from the detonation of a propellant charge or plasma during rail acceleration of a projectile. An impulse the Gauss system and with it the recoil is also less, theoretically, but still more than any energy weapon, because the impulse of a material projectile is still greater.

Well, and secondly, high-energy particles to hit a target, purely in terms of mass, are still required by orders of magnitude less than when firing bullets, because their main damaging factor is "C", not "m".

[Keklas Rekobah]

If you can accept faster-than-light travel, gravity control, telepathy, and drop-dead-gorgeous amazon space elves, then why can you not accept recoilless particle-beam weapons?

[Zorg56]

impulse of a material projectile is still greater

Why recoil should be greater for material projectile if it have same energy?.. I can understand why plasma can have no recoil- its main damage factors is heat and whatever electromagnetic capsule is used to carry plasma intact to target, weight of the projectile and its speed can be neglegible.
7,92x107 had very light bullet, but it still had kick like proper AT rifle, because nergy was same as 12,7x107, lighter bullet, but way more speed because of same amount of propellant.

[Tamri]

Why recoil should be greater for material projectile if it have same energy?.. I can understand why plasma can have no recoil- its main damage factors is heat and whatever electromagnetic capsule is used to carry plasma intact to target, weight of the projectile and its speed can be neglegible.
7,92x107 had very light bullet, but it still had kick like proper AT rifle, because nergy was same as 12,7x107, lighter bullet, but way more speed because of same amount of propellant.

Because E = mC ^ 2. The bullets "m" is orders of magnitude larger, plus the detonation energy of the thrower or the reaction of the rails plus the detonation of the plasma if we are talking about the railgun.

The formula is given not in the value of the SHOT energy, but in the value of the energy that the shot transfers to the IMPULSE, which generates recoil.

[Krulle]

-deleted most of my stuff, we're running circles, and it's not really relevant for the story-

Anyway, this is all pure guesswork anyway in how this translates into the story, and I'll be happy to accept whatever comes our way. (Hey - I am accepting the Witches ability to create energy in this universe out of nothing for the story's sake.)

SpoilerShow

Just some of my favourite quotes, I had them originally in my post, but since I removed most stuff before I posted, but I wanted to leave the quotes, hence here they are:

Einstein was very unhappy about this apparent randomness in nature. His views were summed up in his famous phrase, 'God does not play dice'.
[...]

So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.

Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.

[Zorg56]

Why recoil should be greater for material projectile if it have same energy?.. I can understand why plasma can have no recoil- its main damage factors is heat and whatever electromagnetic capsule is used to carry plasma intact to target, weight of the projectile and its speed can be neglegible.
7,92x107 had very light bullet, but it still had kick like proper AT rifle, because nergy was same as 12,7x107, lighter bullet, but way more speed because of same amount of propellant.

Because E = mC ^ 2. The bullets "m" is orders of magnitude larger, plus the detonation energy of the thrower or the reaction of the rails plus the detonation of the plasma if we are talking about the railgun.

The formula is given not in the value of the SHOT energy, but in the value of the energy that the shot transfers to the IMPULSE, which generates recoil.

Ehem... E=mC^2 is the full energy equivalent of a mass. KE formula is simple (mv^2)/2.
Impulse formula is J=Δv*m.
Railgun dosent have any kind of detonation of the rails or detonation of plasma involved, it is simple electromagnetic accelerator, only plasma there is comes from projectile friction in the air, but at that point projectile long gone from the gun itself?..
We talk about pulse rifle anyway.

[Tamri]

Ehem... E=mC^2 is the full energy equivalent of a mass. KE formula is simple (mv^2)/2.
Impulse formula is J=Δv*m.

Yes, we actually need an impulse formula, I was just too sleepy when I wrote the last post.

Railgun dosent have any kind of detonation of the rails or detonation of plasma involved, it is simple electromagnetic accelerator, only plasma there is comes from projectile friction in the air, but at that point projectile long gone from the gun itself?..
We talk about pulse rifle anyway.

Since we are considering RECOIL, which is a special case of the law of conservation of impulse, we are obviously referring to it. Recoil depends not only on the mass and acceleration of the projectile - if we're not talking about Gauss.

I did not write that the railgun has rails detonation (probably, at least, I did not mean it), but the railgun has a support reaction, which transfers the impulse of the projectile to the shooter to a much greater extent than the Gaussian system. In addition, the shots of the railgun usually, in addition to the projectile itself, also have contacts with the rails, which fire off-evaporate after acceleration, which increases the mass of the projectile and enhances the momentum. Plasma detonation after the projectile leaves the guides also generates an additional angular imulse, which enhances the recoil.


The question was "why is the recoil of any kinetics in any case greater than that of any energy weapon?" The answer is simple - because the "m" of any kinetics is incommensurably greater than the analogous value of any energy weapon.

[CrimsonFALKE]

Magnetic weapons have all the force going in one direction so no real recoil a beam weapon if it's a particle weapon, will have next to nothing mainly due to the microscopic particles being fired out in beams of energy that should produce next to no recoil.

[Tamri]

The law of conservation of momentum for beauty appears to have been invented. Technically, even a laser has a recoil, but it is so small that it can be neglected. For beam weapons, it will be larger - because particles, unlike photons, have mass. Plasma weapons will have even more, because there are more particles in the shot, and their mass is higher.

The "softest" kinetics in terms of recoil will be Gaussian, because the principle of shooting is based on "pushing" a projectile in a magnetic field. Next comes the railgun, because the principle is to accelerate the projectile along the rail under the action of the Lorentz force. But already, unlike Gauss, there is a reaction of the support, plus the formation of plasma during a shot and its detonation give an additional impulse.

Well, the most "heavy" weapon will be a weapon on a chemical thrower, because in addition to the energy of the projectile, at least half of the thrower's energy will be spent on the counter-impulse.

[Krulle]

Gauss canons do have recoil, because the magnetic field which pushes the slug forwards pushes the magnetic coil backwards...

Magnetic weapons have all the force going in one direction so no real recoil a beam weapon if it's a particle weapon, will have next to nothing mainly due to the microscopic particles being fired out in beams of energy that should produce next to no recoil.

How? If there's a force in one direction, whatever creates that force has an exact opposite force. The closed system of the accelerator and the accelerated mass will have a combine impulse of zero.
Meaning that the accelerated mass will have one impulse J, and the accelerator will have the reverse -J impulse.
Just because mass is small doesn't matter much, as the velocity of a particle pulse will be much much larger than the speed of the bullet, which is negligible compared to the velocity of particles (if the particles are meant to do damage).

impulse = Δv [m/s] * m [kg] = J [N s]

Δv is be the speed of the bullets/particles, as they are at a resting speed before the shot is fired, and at muzzle speed after acceleration.

particle speeds will be what? light speed c? 90% of the speed of light c?

c is 299 792 458 m/s

a bullet has the maximum speed of 1500 m/s [source], so at max 0,000005 of the speed of light.
That is rather slow, even if we take the particle-beam speed of only 0.9 c, the fastest current bullets only get to 0,0000056 of the speed of the particle beam.
(Particle beam speed will actually be closer to 0.999 c, but I have found no numbers anywhere, except "close to the speed of light".)

Either way, the numbers are small, on one side (mass/speed) or the other side (speed/mass).
Yes, the particle beam weapon will likely have less impulse on the holding hand than a pistol, but that's largely due to the choice of simply shooting less energy than a pistol throws. Particles on impact to not deform, which decreasing the damage imparted in the fired-at-object. Hence, more of the kinetic energy used becomes energy that does damage, whereas the bullet, especially a full penetrating bullet going back out of the target again, keeps much of its kinetic energy even after the hit.
You simply need to throw less energy at it.

OTOH, the Umiak hardshells are well protected, you'll need a lot more energy than a pistol provides to do serious damage to them, thus the particle-beam weapon will likely also show a different energy consumption than a gun of today will consume (we simply don't have targets that may need such energy in the projectiles - and are unable to produce it in a fashion that a person could hold it in a single hand).


Alex: bring an energy cell home, the practicabilities of such energy cells will be more of interest to Earth's economy than the particle-beam generator, if you must choose and cannot smuggle both at once. (assuming that Earth hasn't solved that by itself until the story begins)

[Demetrious]

It needs to be usable by people in heavy armor and bulky environmental suits. The fingers of which may be restricted by a trigger guard.

Note also that the real-life M-16/AR-15 pattern of rifles have a removable trigger guard for this exact reason; to allow use of gloves in arctic environments. The sliding-bow style trigger of the blaster pistol and the overall streamlining of the pistol's frame would make such an expedient easy for that pistol as well. Naturally, in a shipboard environment where envirosuits are de-facto standard during combat operations and everyone aboard are well-trained military personnel you'd expect the guard to be absent by default.

Of course, it's probably not needed...

Dual safety and power controls? Would they be mechanically linked?

On weapons of this tech level, most likely electronically linked, but mechanically linked ambidextrous controls are indeed standard features on many real-life sidearms.

Well, what kind of safeties (mechanical, electrical, metaphysical or something I can't imagine) would prevent that and still make it possible to be used by Loroi in heavy armor (so no skin contact to the weapon whatsoever) -and- by a human in a space suit?

I think when putting the pistol in the holster, the trigger notch may catch on the edge of the holster and press the trigger. And as in this moment you probably still hold the pistol by the handle, the auto safety system wouldn't recognize the false activation.

I would expect both of these issues to be solved with "smartlink" technology.

Personal weapons are in an odd place when it comes to technology - while the usual dire incentives ensure that efforts to integrate state of the art technology into military weapons for battlefield employment are always ongoing, the even more pressing need for durability and reliability in adverse conditions ensures that old, proven technology sticks around for a long, long time. One could look at the persistent stubbornness of the M1911 pistol (a design stubbornly clinging to active-duty service life over a century after its original issue,) but the humble bayonet is an even more salient example. When reliability is the ultimate qualifier, the definition of "mature" technology changes significantly.

The interesting thing here is that a civilization zooming around with improved antimatter propulsion is one where all the usual cyberpunk doodads are old, time-tested and mature technology, so the sky's the limit. At a minimum, the weapon likely has wireless smartlink capability that can integrate with a Heads-Up-Display integrated into the enviro-suits helmet using any number of methods. This likely interfaces with the suit's own micro-sensors to track the position of the user's body at all times to automatically prevent firing when the user's body is in the way. (Note this wireless link would be as weak; due to proximity negating the need for stronger signals and to prevent detection at a distance.) The suits themselves likely share data between themselves to provide a "blue force tracking" feature and probably also automatically flag incoming enemy fire (angle and probable distance) to share data over the network and populate a map of where friendlies and enemies are at any given time. (Note that Alex's suit might not be so equipped, to say nothing of Loroi telepathy.)

However, even for blue space elves zipping around on antimatter rockets, EMCON is a thing (as demonstrated with the faceplate-to-faceplate chats,) and sidearms by their nature will be worn by support personnel who are not suited up when trouble goes down, so the weapon almost certainly has (automatically engaged) operating modes for such situations. Basic among these would be a "trigger safety" like many modern firearms have; except instead of a crude little toggle lever you have multiple sensors reporting back to the weapons microcomputer that can then analyze the data and determine if it's actually a finger (space-suited or not) or just some random object that snagged on it. Said sensors/computers could even analyze blood vessel patterns/fingerprints etc. and compare it to a whitelist of authorized users before allowing the weapon to fire. (Note this is an example of a capability oft-discussed for modern day firearms due to it's obvious desirability that won't manifest for some time due to the aforementioned tech maturity issues.) One would also expect integrated standalone sighting arrangements built into the gun - either a pop-up holosight or even a holographically projected gunsight that displays itself when the user takes aim and mutes itself when not required. With Clever Science Tricks the latter sight could even be made to only be visible within a narrow cone behind the gun so as to not reveal the user's position in the dark.

Long story short, once a civilization can actually incorporate computers and code into their guns with absolute confidence, they can actually have nice things.

[smart math people stuff]

Just wanted to add that conversations like these are always great to see. Science is a big part of science-fiction; that's why it's in the name. And you often learn things from it. I read some clever person doing the math long ago on a laser pistol to demonstrate that one hurling the equivalent amount of energy to a standard .45 caliber slug would have the recoil of a .22 pistol (i.e. noticeably extant but insignificant from an end-user perspective.) This conversation made me realize that you also have to account for greater power outputs than the equivalent of modern small arms if the weapon is capable of producing them. This is also a use-case consideration; if you're fighting unarmored enemy personnel you'll prefer a lower power setting to minimize recoil, heat buildup, ammunition (energy) expenditure and, of course, collateral damage (which matters if you're on a spaceship loaded with fuel, missiles and other things which react poorly to high-energy excitation events.)

To add to the conversation I'd note that for the actual user, effective or "felt" recoil is not necessarily the same thing as actual recoil. Modern-day firearms can mitigate (sometimes greatly) the negative impacts of recoil on the user's accuracy and rate of fire via various design features and considerations. The axis of the bore matters, for instance. The lower the rearward impulse is the better, as it puts it more in-line with the users arm, letting the force transfer straight back into their body (who's greater mass absorbs it easily) rather than lifting the user's arm as... well, a lever-arm. This directly translates to a reduction in muzzle rise, which is the biggest negative effect of recoil.

This also holds true for other ergonomic considerations, especially balance. Though the blaster pistol is clearly bulky that doesn't necessarily mean it's heavy and it could still be quite nicely balanced; esp. if the heaviest component (likely the power cell) is contained in the grip. The grip itself could simply be deliberately weighed to counter-balance the rest of the weapon and still maintain an overall light weight.

[CrimsonFALKE]

Did anyone contact me I do not see anything but I got a message and see nothing? In all the only recoil a railgun would have would be the rails get pushed apart, a gauss weapon can get high muzzle velocity with next to no recoil.

[Mk_C]

heavy slow bullet and light fast bullet with same enery will give same kick.

No. It will give the same force, but not the same acceleration on the fairearm, and the latter determines the recoil effect. And there's no reason to think that a particle beam will have the same force as a bullet - it doesn't need a lot of force behind the beam, just like modern firearms don't need as much force as black powder muskets. You might start wondering how come larger a firearm of the same caliber is, the less recoil it has. Or how come LHC manages not to send itself (and the concrete slab in the target side-tunnel) flying while not using any sort of recoil-dampeners whatsoever, despite the fact that the fired beam can reach the KE equivalent to a really large cargo train moving at the speed of sound.

The single projectile particle will have a small mass, but to be effective, you'll need quite a few projectile particles, and adding all these impulses of all the particles, the pulse WILL have quite some energy to propel the combined mass, which will have recoil effects (actio et reactio). No matter how "negligible" you think it is, the hand is trying to hold steady a gun, which does create a force not entirely in line with the point where the hand holds the weapon, thus the hand *will* be moved before it can compensate for the force.

Same here, only with accounting for the entire beam means that our impulse is extended in time.

[Cthulhu]

Rather than discussing how a blaster may work based upon nothing but conjecture, how about trying it out first? Well, jokes aside, we actually need to have a look at them in action. Even if the weapon is too small to feature inertial dampening, there are various ways to lessen the recoil.

[Demetrious]

Rather than discussing how a blaster may work based upon nothing but conjecture, how about trying it out first? Well, jokes aside, we actually need to have a look at them in action. Even if the weapon is too small to feature inertial dampening, there are various ways to lessen the recoil.

As a matter of practical application, Alex has trained in using kinetic-based weapons, thus his personal "muscle memory" in regards to controlling recoil will be more than sufficient to handle any recoil a particle beam weapon will generate. Especially given the close quarters this fight will take place in, his unfamiliarity with the specific weapon in question will pale in comparison to the value of his basic training in the fundamentals of marksmanship and "the basics of QCB."

All this Posting we do is purely out of our own personal mind gremlins because we are incorrigible nerds who cannot help but talk about pew pew lazorz.

I know what I am and I will NOT apologize

[Cthulhu]

As a matter of practical application, Alex has trained in using kinetic-based weapons, thus his personal "muscle memory" in regards to controlling recoil will be more than sufficient to handle any recoil a particle beam weapon will generate. Especially given the close quarters this fight will take place in, his unfamiliarity with the specific weapon in question will pale in comparison to the value of his basic training in the fundamentals of marksmanship and "the basics of QCB."

Yes, except that the kinetic-based weapons should have a slightly different recoil pattern. Also, the Bellarmine would be equipped with laser pistols, I guess? Those don't even have a recoil, and Beryl should know this from the examination of the wreck. Therefore, Alex is highly likely to miss his first shot, at least, and she dialed the blasters power down to prevent accidents.

All this Posting we do is purely out of our own personal mind gremlins because we are incorrigible nerds who cannot help but talk about pew pew lazorz.

That's why I suggested trying it out first. Why? 'Cuz it's awesome!

I know what I am and I will NOT apologize

I wasn't serious either, so shine on, ya nerdy diamonds!

[Arioch]

Any single-shot TL6+ weapon (laser, blaster, slugthrower) is done firing long before you have a chance to react to the recoil or lack thereof. At the close ranges inside a starship, bullet drop is not an issue. Alex would have been trained on a variety of weapons, but the differences between them on this particular battlefield are irrelevant, with one exception: the Loroi sidearm is quite capable of shooting through walls on its maximum setting, which is not ideal in environments were "some things don't react well to bullets."

SpoilerShow

Especially since Beryl and Alex's task is to secure the magazine.