A question of ruthlessness... spoiler...ish?

[Bamax]

There's a distinction between the Union government, in which the Loroi have a special executive position, and the government of worlds under Loroi jurisdiction. Loroi rules regarding their own civilians only have effect within Loroi territory and regarding Loroi citizens. The militaries of the other Union members are limited by the Union treaty in a similar manner to the way that the various Earth nations agreed to limit their naval power according to the Washington (etc.) treaties, but Loroi law has little or no effect on non-Loroi worlds. The manner in which aliens in Loroi territory are treated similar to civilians is that there is no restriction again them owning and running businesses. And they are probably not allowed to bear arms unless they have some kind of special permit.

Also, a Loroi who has legally emigrated to a non-Loroi nation is no longer subject to Loroi law, and so it is possible for expatriate Loroi to serve in foreign mercenary companies. Though these are few and far between as the Loroi themselves are the major customers for such companies.

It's not really true to say that the Loroi prefer to rely on alien industry rather than their own; as an inherently mercantile economy that values self-sufficiency, the opposite is true. The Loroi are pragmatic enough to adopt alien technologies when these are superior to their own, and being in the Union for so long with the free-market Barsam and Neridi, the Loroi have learned to appreciate that it is more efficient to buy components from entities that can produce them better or more cheaply than Loroi manufacturers, but the majority of military hardware is still produced in Loroi factories by Loroi workers.

The Loroi reprisals following the Enok incident didn't have anything to do with breaking Loroi rules regarding civilians; the Mannadi were a newly surrendered occupied population whose only treaty agreement with the Loroi was the instrument of surrender (the Union at this point did not yet exist). The Mannadi did violate these terms of surrender by allowing or supporting continued armed resistance, which culminated in a successful attack that killed a lot of Loroi and destroyed several ships. And the Loroi response was the action of a local commander, and not officially sanctioned by Loroi law or the Loroi administration.

So was the Loroi administration like this toward Commander Genocide?

In Public: "That was an act of utter barbarity!"

In Private: "Well done! Of course your acting out of the bounds of law requires we discipline you in some way. We cannot set a precedent for our commanders doing whatever they want. Still... the Mannadi were a real pain in the butt, so whatever punishment you receive will be lighter than usual. Just keep your nose clean and stay out of the public news for a while. When the time is right you can return to your usual work. In the meantime we will ship you off to work somewhere.. less hostile."


The latter scenario seems more likely than the following amusing one:

"Well done! Too many commanders do not have the strength to do what needs to be done. We need more like you in government. Interested?"

[Arioch]

So was the Loroi administration like this toward Commander Genocide?

In Public: "That was an act of utter barbarity!"

In Private: "Well done! Of course your acting out of the bounds of law requires we discipline you in some way. We cannot set a precedent for our commanders doing whatever they want. Still... the Mannadi were a real pain in the butt, so whatever punishment you receive will be lighter than usual. Just keep your nose clean and stay out of the public news for a while. When the time is right you can return to your usual work. In the meantime we will ship you off to work somewhere.. less hostile."

No, pretty much the reverse. The commander in question was not acting outside the bounds of the law. While she didn't have direct authorization from the administration, she didn't need it; frontier commanders need to have broad license to act, since communication with the central authority takes time, and her actions were not technically outside the scope of her orders. And so the administration had to back her up, and Azerein Loremark refused foreign calls for her to be charged with war crimes. But the incident brought the Loroi to the brink of a general war, and so no, the administration was not pleased.

[Demarquis]

A society can be expansionist without being especially ruthless (I would argue that that reasonably describes the United States), or ruthless without be especially expansionist (China).

Sorry, one word popped to my mind: Taiwan.

And economy wise, China is aggressively expansionist. They influence neighbouring policies through economics.
[/quote]

I don't disagree, but the context of this conversation has been around the probability of genocide, in story or on real Earth, which naturally focuses our attention on military aggression. China doesn't seem especially expansionist to me militaristically, Taiwan being an exception because the mainland Chinese regard it as a rogue province, not a foreign country.

[Werra]

Every war is expensive.

But someone started with Delenda Carthago Est, and this sentence was not used until after the second punic war, and led to the third punic war.
Carthago was destroyed when it was NO danger to Rome.

Be careful when alleging that I don't know history.
Also, there were three punic wars, not just two like you allege. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War

I brought up the Punic Wars as an example of a human genocide. Of course there were three wars. That Rome destroyed an already defeated enemy does not lessen the effort and losses to achieve the preceeding victories.

The commander in question was not acting outside the bounds of the law. While she didn't have direct authorization from the administration, she didn't need it; frontier commanders need to have broad license to act, since communication with the central authority takes time, and her actions were not technically outside the scope of her orders. And so the administration had to back her up, and Azerein Loremark refused foreign calls for her to be charged with war crimes. But the incident brought the Loroi to the brink of a general war, and so no, the administration was not pleased.

Loremark then valued the independency/untouchability of the Loroi and the claimed right to commit these kind of actions when necessary as worthy of general war for. With the majority of Loroi allies AND the formerly neutral countries no less. Or she knew that the other nations would fold and made a play to establish the Loroi Empire. That's...pretty damn ruthless.

[Bamax]

So was the Loroi administration like this toward Commander Genocide?

In Public: "That was an act of utter barbarity!"

In Private: "Well done! Of course your acting out of the bounds of law requires we discipline you in some way. We cannot set a precedent for our commanders doing whatever they want. Still... the Mannadi were a real pain in the butt, so whatever punishment you receive will be lighter than usual. Just keep your nose clean and stay out of the public news for a while. When the time is right you can return to your usual work. In the meantime we will ship you off to work somewhere.. less hostile."

No, pretty much the reverse. The commander in question was not acting outside the bounds of the law. While she didn't have direct authorization from the administration, she didn't need it; frontier commanders need to have broad license to act, since communication with the central authority takes time, and her actions were not technically outside the scope of her orders. And so the administration had to back her up, and Azerein Loremark refused foreign calls for her to be charged with war crimes. But the incident brought the Loroi to the brink of a general war, and so no, the administration was not pleased.

So basically they did NOTHING to Commander Genocide? She went on and even may have been promoted later?

The administration just fumed in their gilded palace and worked feverishly to avoid war with other local appalled races?


That is.... while I suppose independent commanders are necessary due to light lag effect on messaging, I have to ask whether other known races are known for genocide?

Or is it JUST the Loroi?

Warrior mentality taken too far I guess.


So the Loroi are not quite as itching for a fight as the perpetual bloodlust of the original Babylon 5 Minbari warrior cast. But tick them off and only the threat of war will stop them from exterminating those they won't tolerate to the last person.

Which is what happened to the Mannadi? They literally only exist in historical records... right?

[dragoongfa]

The Nissek are known to eat their captives and hunt other sapients. They are also in some short of conflict at the other side of the Nissek border; so it's unknown if they are genocidal or not.

The Umiak fall into the genocidal category if only due to the way they are exploiting their subjugated races; Belgian Congo comes into mind, true numbers are unknown and impossible to put down but it is widely agreed that Leopold II 'The Builder King' easily ranks among the top 5 genocidal leaders of history, with the estimates being that in the span of 25 years the population was halved due to a combination of forced labor, atrocities committed to pacify the population and rampant diseases which were left to run its course because it was uneconomical to give aid. As it turns out when you take, take and take from a population said population will rapidly decline because they will have nothing to live on.

Then of course there is the way the Umiak acted on the occupied Loroi planets which is a full scale military campaign of genocide.

[Tamri]

Loremark then valued the independency/untouchability of the Loroi and the claimed right to commit these kind of actions when necessary as worthy of general war for. With the majority of Loroi allies AND the formerly neutral countries no less. Or she knew that the other nations would fold and made a play to establish the Loroi Empire. That's...pretty damn ruthless

Or she didn’t want other species to directly influence Loroi politics in any way. Because if Loroi issue for trial of the responsible commander to the judgment, that would be a precedent. Loroi solve problems with their overly proactive commanders within their circle, and other species have no right to demand anything from them, or they "argue" this right to intervene by force.

Other species preferred to avoid direct conflict, but to apply an alternative way of solving the problem.

Which is what happened to the Mannadi? They literally only exist in historical records... right?

No, after the avalanche of public outrage collapsed, Loroi closed Mannadi to isolation on the surface of their planets with very strict restrictions on movement and development, under the control of the colonial administration, IIRC.

[Arioch]

So basically they did NOTHING to Commander Genocide? She went on and even may have been promoted later?

That's not what I said. You can't bring an officer up on charges or take disciplinary action if she didn't technically break the rules or disobey orders (well... unless you're a Stalinesque dictator who doesn't trouble oneself with laws). But if the admiralty doesn't agree with her actions, and especially if those actions resulted in an international incident, she's probably not going to have a fruitful career afterward.

The incidents in which Gen. George Patton slapped several battle fatigue patients nearly resulted in his being removed from his command, and functionally ending his career, but I don't think charges could have been brought against him, as I don't think what he did was technically outside his purview as commander.

So the Loroi are not quite as itching for a fight as the perpetual bloodlust of the original Babylon 5 Minbari warrior cast. But tick them off and only the threat of war will stop them from exterminating those they won't tolerate to the last person.

If the Loroi had wanted to conquer known space, they could have done it at any time they wished to between the end of the Mannadi wars and contact with the Umiak. They didn't need an excuse; they could have easily beaten the combined forces of all of the other known nations. This is part of the reason that Loremark could take a hard line on the issue, as she knew that even the Barsam were not fervent enough to start a war they had no chance of winning.

But from a practical standpoint, no nation that doesn't have to is going to allow foreign entities to put its military personnel on trial. The US doesn't allow this, nor do I think any other nations with significant military power. And that's because war by definition involves killing people; in order to do their jobs, military officers sometimes have to do things which by some definitions constitute crimes. As a military character in The West Wing said when discussing the issue, "All wars are crimes."

[Zorg56]

So basically they did NOTHING to Commander Genocide? She went on and even may have been promoted later?

Some officers were killing civilians for fun in some countries that they invaded, even after it was made public nothing happened to them or their career. Thats if we talk about so called "first world countries".
Some first world countries practiced large scale genocide and concentration camps as late as 1961, going as far as killing even its own civilians in order to maintain it.
If we will talk about other countries, then apparently you can cut off heads on a video and put it on youtube, and everyone including youtube will be ok with that. (i am talking about goverment forces of certain nations, not about some terrorist groups.)

If the Loroi had wanted to conquer known space, they could have done it at any time they wished to between the end of the Mannadi wars and contact with the Umiak. They didn't need an excuse; they could have easily beaten the combined forces of all of the other known nations. This is part of the reason that Loremark could take a hard line on the issue, as she knew that even the Barsam were not fervent enough to start a war they had no chance of winning.

They kinda did already.
The rest of the "union" members essentialy nothing more then disarmed puppet states that have no say in anything practicaly and can be ignored regardless.

[Werra]

Oh, I'm sure the administration wasn't displeased with the formation of the Union. Neither will there have been heartbroken over the fate of the Mannadi. Once they were (nearly) gone, that sector must now be quite relaxing to work in for the Loroi.

@dragoongfa

SpoilerShow

The population figures for the surrounding African nations of the time do not support the pop density needed in the Congo for that many victims being possible.

[dragoongfa]

Oh, I'm sure the administration wasn't displeased with the formation of the Union. Neither will there have been heartbroken over the fate of the Mannadi. Once they were (nearly) gone, that sector must now be quite relaxing to work in for the Loroi.

@dragoongfa

SpoilerShow

The population figures for the surrounding African nations of the time do not support the pop density needed in the Congo for that many victims being possible.

That's why I didn't mention the numbers, the accepted historical fact is that Leopold II brutalized and stole from the population of the Congo to such a degree that the population declined by half in the span of 25 years. From all points of view that is genocide even if it was not an objective to kill the population, they were just worked and brutalized to death.

In comparison it took the Khmer rouge nearly four years to kill a quarter of Cambodia's population in a deliberate campaign of genocide.

[Werra]

That's why I didn't mention the numbers, the accepted historical fact is that Leopold II brutalized and stole from the population of the Congo to such a degree that the population declined by half in the span of 25 years. From all points of view that is genocide even if it was not an objective to kill the population, they were just worked and brutalized to death.

In comparison it took the Khmer rouge nearly four years to kill a quarter of Cambodia's population in a deliberate campaign of genocide.

The claim that the congolese population was reduced by half under Leopold is based on two estimates. An estimate of 20 million inhabitants of the Congo around the time when the Belgians took over and a further estimate of around 10 million when Leopolds operation ceased. Problem is, the second claim is far more accurate than the first, which was based on the population density along the Congo river.
There are even (modern) models out there that give a growth rate for the Congo during the time in question. Based on the area used for agriculture, which was used for other countries to a reasonable degree of precision.

One thing I have learned studying history is that if there is even a hint of "Look how bad these people/how virtuous our guys were" in a text you do not believe the numbers if they can not be verified by other means.

[Bamax]

So was the Loroi administration like this toward Commander Genocide?

In Public: "That was an act of utter barbarity!"

In Private: "Well done! Of course your acting out of the bounds of law requires we discipline you in some way. We cannot set a precedent for our commanders doing whatever they want. Still... the Mannadi were a real pain in the butt, so whatever punishment you receive will be lighter than usual. Just keep your nose clean and stay out of the public news for a while. When the time is right you can return to your usual work. In the meantime we will ship you off to work somewhere.. less hostile."

No, pretty much the reverse. The commander in question was not acting outside the bounds of the law. While she didn't have direct authorization from the administration, she didn't need it; frontier commanders need to have broad license to act, since communication with the central authority takes time, and her actions were not technically outside the scope of her orders. And so the administration had to back her up, and Azerein Loremark refused foreign calls for her to be charged with war crimes. But the incident brought the Loroi to the brink of a general war, and so no, the administration was not pleased.

Wait.... I saw EMPEROR Loremark in the forum searches.

Am I to believe this is the same Loremark that nearly wiped out the Mannadi pro bono?

So a former genocidal commander can become emperor?

Or was this another person named Loremark (popular name eh?).

Perhaps the Loroi public was OK with the genocide overall?

[Werra]

The Azerain is the emperor.

[Zorg56]

So was the Loroi administration like this toward Commander Genocide?

In Public: "That was an act of utter barbarity!"

In Private: "Well done! Of course your acting out of the bounds of law requires we discipline you in some way. We cannot set a precedent for our commanders doing whatever they want. Still... the Mannadi were a real pain in the butt, so whatever punishment you receive will be lighter than usual. Just keep your nose clean and stay out of the public news for a while. When the time is right you can return to your usual work. In the meantime we will ship you off to work somewhere.. less hostile."

No, pretty much the reverse. The commander in question was not acting outside the bounds of the law. While she didn't have direct authorization from the administration, she didn't need it; frontier commanders need to have broad license to act, since communication with the central authority takes time, and her actions were not technically outside the scope of her orders. And so the administration had to back her up, and Azerein Loremark refused foreign calls for her to be charged with war crimes. But the incident brought the Loroi to the brink of a general war, and so no, the administration was not pleased.

Wait.... I saw EMPEROR Loremark in the forum searches.

Am I to believe this is the same Loremark that nearly wiped out the Mannadi pro bono?

So a former genocidal commander can become emperor?

Or was this another person named Loremark (popular name eh?).

Perhaps the Loroi public was OK with the genocide overall?

They are perfectly OK with half of their population being subclass with no rights, why would they care about some aliens?
They kill their children if they dont like them.

[Tamri]

Wait.... I saw EMPEROR Loremark in the forum searches.

Am I to believe this is the same Loremark that nearly wiped out the Mannadi pro bono?

So a former genocidal commander can become emperor?

Or was this another person named Loremark (popular name eh?).

Perhaps the Loroi public was OK with the genocide overall?

No. Loremark is the name of the Emperor that brought all this shit to Mannadi. Azerain is, in fact, the title (Emperor) in the Trade.

IIRC the name of the Loroi commander who started the genocide, is not mentioned anywhere.

[gaerzi]

A society can be expansionist without being especially ruthless (I would argue that that reasonably describes the United States)

How naïve.

Sorry, one word popped to my mind: Taiwan.

That's irredentism rather than expansionism. There's a number of territories that China claims belongs to them for historical reasons. The Taiwan situation is even especially complicated by the fact that, well, Taiwan agrees that their island belongs to China. They only disagree on who China is.

This is not different from most other countries in the world, territorial disputes are everywhere; including between friendly countries (but there's a lot less saber-rattling in these cases). Expansionism would be claiming Vietnam or Siberia -- which may very well happen in the mid future, twenty to thirty years away.

Quite ironically, Taiwan is even more irredentist than China, and it's to copy Taiwan's claims that China started pushing the whole "nine-dash line" irredentist claim on the South China Seas.

And economy wise, China is aggressively expansionist. They influence neighbouring policies through economics.

Also economic expansionism is the name of the game. We have built a mondialized capitalist economy, where the key is infinite continuous economic growth. If you don't try to grow your economy by getting access to more markets, you're condemned to disappear into irrelevance. And none are playing this game more ruthlessly than the United States, ever since they have decided that their laws have universal jurisdiction. Wake me up the day China starts putting 10 billion dollar fines on US companies for trading with Taiwan.

Which is not to say that the Chinese aren't ruthless, they absolutely are. But all nation-states are ruthless; it's a critical necessity for their survival. Because if you aren't, you just become a low-hanging fruit for the neighboring ruthless powers.


To bring this back on topic, there's nothing we've been told about the crimes of the Loroi that cannot find direct equivalents (even if at a smaller scale, since we're limited to a single planet) in human history.

[Bamax]

Wait.... I saw EMPEROR Loremark in the forum searches.

Am I to believe this is the same Loremark that nearly wiped out the Mannadi pro bono?

So a former genocidal commander can become emperor?

Or was this another person named Loremark (popular name eh?).

Perhaps the Loroi public was OK with the genocide overall?

No. Loremark is the name of the Emperor that brought all this shit to Mannadi. Azerain is, in fact, the title (Emperor) in the Trade.

IIRC the name of the Loroi commander who started the genocide, is not mentioned anywhere.

I suggest you use the search forum bar for Loremark.

Unless I saw incorrectly, which I doubt, I saw Azerein Loremark. Typed in by none other than Arioch himself.

[Werra]

Wait.... I saw EMPEROR Loremark in the forum searches.

Am I to believe this is the same Loremark that nearly wiped out the Mannadi pro bono?

So a former genocidal commander can become emperor?

Or was this another person named Loremark (popular name eh?).

Perhaps the Loroi public was OK with the genocide overall?

No. Loremark is the name of the Emperor that brought all this shit to Mannadi. Azerain is, in fact, the title (Emperor) in the Trade.

IIRC the name of the Loroi commander who started the genocide, is not mentioned anywhere.

I suggest you use the search forum bar for Loremark.

Unless I saw incorrectly, which I doubt, I saw Azerein Loremark. Typed in by none other than Arioch himself.

Loremark was the ruling emperor when the unknown Loroi commander did nothing wrong to the Mannadi.

[Tamri]

I suggest you use the search forum bar for Loremark.

Unless I saw incorrectly, which I doubt, I saw Azerein Loremark. Typed in by none other than Arioch himself.

Aaand... what? Yeah, Azerein Loremark, it's right. Azerein - tittle, what mean "Emperor" in Trade. For example, the current Emperor is referred to in full form as Azerein Greywind. Loremark - it's a name of Azerein, who lived on Mannadi wars period.

But Loremark DON'T start a genocide, they just threaten with war to other spesies, if they try meddle in affairs to Loroi politics. Genoside was started by an unknown to us Loroi commander, what headed the occupation administration in sector.