Human Superiority (again)

[Krulle]

Humans can innovate much more quickly than the Loroi...

But the Umiak use their "client" states to innovate. Same for the Loroi. They have their allies, who improve the propulsion/weapons. The Loroi are still open to the new systems.

Terran current weapons/fleet were not designed for fleet battles or long range...

Because there never was a need for it. Nor the tech to make it feasible and working.

The soonest the Loroi can get a delegation to a Terran system 2-5 years after meeting Alex...
so 2162-2165(this is delegation not a war fleet)

Because they want a proper delegation to travel, ready for a long-term diplomatic mission, and not some rag-tag decision on the spot with limited power to make contracts with / disclose information to the Humans, like the Human delegation on the Bellarmine had.
Also, the Loroi expect a certain bureaucratic delay in the mission to start.

Terrans have non-fission Fusion bombs(Terran Torpedoes)

3000km/s is the max safe speed any ships will travel under normal conditions in a star system.(Terran ships are not much slower then Loroi/Umiak in traversing systems)

Because remaining dust particles will have tremendous impact at those speeds, and worse for higher speeds. BUT the time needed to get to the traversing speed will differ greatly. Calculate the time necessary to get to that speed when using 30 g, or when using 8 g (or whatever human tech allows), to get to app. 1% of lightspeed (the speed you mentioned).
Don't forget any breaking before the jump.
I did not understand from the available information how fast a ship should be when jumping, and if it may have any speed at all.

[MBehave]

I did, you should have tried it before saying I was wrong...
10.4au(jump points directly across a system)
3000km/s max speed start/stop is
at 30g(Loroi) ~6.54 days
at 25g(Umiak) ~6.65 days
at 6g(Terran) ~7.23 days
Also you missed the forest for the trees.

Humans can innovate much more quickly than the Loroi...

But the Umiak use their "client" states to innovate. Same for the Loroi. They have their allies, who improve the propulsion/weapons. The Loroi are still open to the new systems.

Terran current weapons/fleet were not designed for fleet battles or long range...

Because there never was a need for it. Nor the tech to make it feasible and working.

The soonest the Loroi can get a delegation to a Terran system 2-5 years after meeting Alex...
so 2162-2165(this is delegation not a war fleet)

Because they want a proper delegation to travel, ready for a long-term diplomatic mission, and not some rag-tag decision on the spot with limited power to make contracts with / disclose information to the Humans, like the Human delegation on the Bellarmine had.
Also, the Loroi expect a certain bureaucratic delay in the mission to start.

Terrans have non-fission Fusion bombs(Terran Torpedoes)

3000km/s is the max safe speed any ships will travel under normal conditions in a star system.(Terran ships are not much slower then Loroi/Umiak in traversing systems)

Because remaining dust particles will have tremendous impact at those speeds, and worse for higher speeds. BUT the time needed to get to the traversing speed will differ greatly. Calculate the time necessary to get to that speed when using 30 g, or when using 8 g (or whatever human tech allows), to get to app. 1% of lightspeed (the speed you mentioned).
Don't forget any breaking before the jump.
I did not understand from the available information how fast a ship should be when jumping, and if it may have any speed at all.

[MBehave]

I didn't know tanks/aircraft/vehicles were LOW tech arms that any workshop could make?

The point is that back then what a simple workshop was able to produce wasn't that far off in battlefield potential than what then state of the art arms were capable off. 100 men equipped with basic arms were still a dangerous force.
But the more complicated your weapon systems become, the bigger the difference. No matter the discrepancy in industrial output, a nation with a modern day airforce will trounce a WW2 airforce.

Orions are not complicated they are both simple in production and function... with the most complicated high tech systems actually being sensors/computer systems which even a current mobile phone has enough processing power to run...
Even the radar could be vaccuum tube based...
Primitive to an extreme...

Also Orions are actually MORE PRIMITIVE then current weapons systems(2020)

That says nothing about how easy they're to manufacture. A cannon is a lot more primitive than a rifle and still is far harder to manufacture.

Modern cannons are more advanced then a rifle, they actually require better alloys and high quality tempering methods along with more advanced lathing methods.

Which is reversed from the original cannons which were cast and due to impure alloys and temper were brittle and had to be made thicker so as to not explode and a man sized weapon were hard to produce until refining methods in Europe started mass creating steel.
Same effect in reverse was seen again with the invention of better smelting/refining techniques allowed cannons to advance and catch up with rifles.

I said tonnage not just GDP

Raw tonnage is a useless data point in this case. On earth you can use rivers, oceans, trains for cheap transportation that's light on resources.
In space simply getting the stuff where you need it takes rocket fuel, electronics and space capable vehicles with their extensive supple profile.

I mentioned TONNAGE...
Ton as in METRIC Ton, a system of weight/mass...
Earth and Mars are already supply the vast amount of resources the colonies need to expand and support colonists.
Tarrans have been stated to have a large amount of trade between the colonies and 40 star systems with bases/mining/etc making for the need of around 50 jump capable ships to act as policing and further system police ships of an unknown number(no jump drive).
Insider even states that Terrans have no problem getting material on/off planets in 2160.

I stopped reading once you said Orions are inefficient because you went out of your way to either be ignorant on purpose or didn't even read and only skimmed but decided to reply.

But they are inefficient in Outsider. You need to compare them to pulse cannons and blasters. Those are weapon systems that only need to turn the barrel to aim instead of the whole construct. Their "tonnage" is also reusable, safe for what's spend on fuel to power ship and weapon.

Cthulhu has pegged you quite right he, pegged. You focus your analysis so narrowly on raw numbers and technicalities that you do not see how the system as a whole works.

Funny you completely ignore actual facts as stated in Outsider(insider), as mentioned above, while saying that ...

[Werra]

Orions are not complicated they are both simple in production and function... with the most complicated high tech systems actually being sensors/computer systems which even a current mobile phone has enough processing power to run...
Even the radar could be vaccuum tube based...
Primitive to an extreme...

I wouldn't call a weapons system that needs to use space capable infrastructure as primitive. What several people are telling you is that the lower the base level of technology is, the less severe differences in equipment become. There is not a tri-plane in existence that can take on a modern fighter jet. But if you need to fight a fully armored knight and all you have is a club, you could conceivably do it.

Modern cannons are more advanced then a rifle, they actually require better alloys and high quality tempering methods along with more advanced lathing methods.

Obviously I didn't mean to compare modern artillery pieces with modern rifles. Okay, next example of the concept then. A Königstiger and a current gen manportable AT missile. Just because something is older doesn't mean better, more modern weapons can't be easier to produce.

I mentioned TONNAGE...
Ton as in METRIC Ton, a system of weight/mass...
Earth and Mars are already supply the vast amount of resources the colonies need to expand and support colonists.
Tarrans have been stated to have a large amount of trade between the colonies and 40 star systems with bases/mining/etc making for the need of around 50 jump capable ships to act as policing and further system police ships of an unknown number(no jump drive).
Insider even states that Terrans have no problem getting material on/off planets in 2160.

It makes no difference to my argument whether we're talking about metric tons or abstract tonnage, as both still need to be transported. Transportation was just one example how logistics are vastly different in space than on earth. Thus, earth-bound industrial output of the past is of little significance for future space industry.
Human space trade in Outsider doesn't have limitless capacity. Just because earth can keep several colonies alive, doesn't mean she can do that and take on a massive project such as seeding TCA space with Orions.

You know, I have no problem getting some milk from the fridge. Doesn't mean I can fill my bathtub with the stuff just like that.

[inxsi]

Since many people argue with these in multiple threads im putting it here as they are actual facts from Insider data...

Humans can innovate much more quickly than the Loroi...
Terran current weapons/fleet were not designed for fleet battles or long range...
The soonest the Loroi can get a delegation to a Terran system 2-5 years after meeting Alex...
so 2162-2165(this is delegation not a war fleet)
Terrans have non-fission Fusion bombs(Terran Torpedoes)
3000km/s is the max safe speed any ships will travel under normal conditions in a star system.(Terran ships are not much slower then Loroi/Umiak in traversing systems)

I agree - I thought it was fairly well established that humanity innovated much more quickly than basically everyone in the galaxy, including the entirety of the Loroi Union and the Hierarchy with their client states. Some of the issues with humanity's space fleet is that they have not needed to be better than they currently are (up until they discovered the orgus), but I think it is important to remember that, even in terrestrial warfare that humanity has experience with, every new technology has shown issues with tactical and strategic doctrines that were thought to be sound. I see no reason to believe that this will not be true in space warfare as well (I believe that the loroi have been dealing with this with some of their ship designs through the current war, and expect the umiak have as well but I'm not as familiar with them).

I didn't realize that the loroi were not expecting to send a delegation to humanity for so long.

[MBehave]

You can kill a modern armour with a boulder rolled down a hill, Neolithic level attack...
Its even been done multiple times...
If you know where Hundreds of Modern battle tanks were going to come though a mountain pass they have no bypass with no support and you are given 3 years even a few hundred men with just wood Shovels and stone hammers and their own manpower are going to cause serious damage/death/problems.
Shovels are as primitive as clubs...


This is much like Orions at a Jump point in outsider.

Its called Terrain advantage..
Orions cant match Umiak/Loroi ships in a system, only by hitting them along the 10lm or so jump line.
Terrans advantage is
Distance
Can have monitor system to know in advance
Limited Jump lines
3 years+ to prepare.

Battlecrusier sized transports which are mostly scaffolding because all the parts they will carry are space rated and don't need protection.
5 transports 4 carrying front/drive plates and 1 having the robotic systems to extract/deploy.
Assuming give 6 weeks travel time/setup/return/resupply
Deploy about 150 orions
1300 orions deployed by 1 group a year.
50 Transports can deploy 13000.

Assuming TCA Battleship:Transport production is on par with USA ww2 battleship:Transport production the TCA can produce 100-200 transports(military) a year.
Taking 75 of those a year allows for over 80000 orions to have been deployed in 3 years...

Getting Orions anywhere isn't the problem given a few years for TCA.
WW2 production is in Battleships vs Transports is a fair comparison due to equal tech and material required to make Battleships/transports in each era, ww2 and 2160.

As for Orions
If mass producing them is a problem they can be used as a multistage booster.
Replacing the main warhead and 30% of its endurance they can carry around 50 normal Terran torpedoes
500 Orions can release 25000 Torpedoes that have due to the booster closing faster at about twice the speed then Loroi/Umiak torpedoes can and neither Umiak/Loroi ships can outrun/evade.

Twice the closing speed and size on par with Loroi/Umiak means better survival rates and only half the weapon volleys used to engage them...
Of course, can Terrans mass produce with their industry so many fusion torpedoes is something only Arioch can comment on as its a high tech munition. Orions are low tech and can be focused on from just a industrial capacity of raw resources for the most part.
Fission and Thermonuclear bombs are primitive functionally and easy to produce.

Tech gap of a Triplane vs modern airforce is on par with 1960s rocketry to the current Loroi...
Triplanes/Biplanes were not even effective towards the war effort outside of RECON, if they were removed the war would have played out effectively the same...
If Terran colonies had a civil war, TCA warships would be the DECIDING element.

Triplanes are 110 years behind current airforce...
With Terran tech rate in outsider with no outside influence they are not even 100 years behind the Loroi.

Orions are not complicated they are both simple in production and function... with the most complicated high tech systems actually being sensors/computer systems which even a current mobile phone has enough processing power to run...
Even the radar could be vaccuum tube based...
Primitive to an extreme...

I wouldn't call a weapons system that needs to use space capable infrastructure as primitive. What several people are telling you is that the lower the base level of technology is, the less severe differences in equipment become. There is not a tri-plane in existence that can take on a modern fighter jet. But if you need to fight a fully armored knight and all you have is a club, you could conceivably do it.

Modern cannons are more advanced then a rifle, they actually require better alloys and high quality tempering methods along with more advanced lathing methods.

Obviously I didn't mean to compare modern artillery pieces with modern rifles. Okay, next example of the concept then. A Königstiger and a current gen manportable AT missile. Just because something is older doesn't mean better, more modern weapons can't be easier to produce.

I mentioned TONNAGE...
Ton as in METRIC Ton, a system of weight/mass...
Earth and Mars are already supply the vast amount of resources the colonies need to expand and support colonists.
Tarrans have been stated to have a large amount of trade between the colonies and 40 star systems with bases/mining/etc making for the need of around 50 jump capable ships to act as policing and further system police ships of an unknown number(no jump drive).
Insider even states that Terrans have no problem getting material on/off planets in 2160.

It makes no difference to my argument whether we're talking about metric tons or abstract tonnage, as both still need to be transported. Transportation was just one example how logistics are vastly different in space than on earth. Thus, earth-bound industrial output of the past is of little significance for future space industry.
Human space trade in Outsider doesn't have limitless capacity. Just because earth can keep several colonies alive, doesn't mean she can do that and take on a massive project such as seeding TCA space with Orions.

You know, I have no problem getting some milk from the fridge. Doesn't mean I can fill my bathtub with the stuff just like that.

[Cthulhu]

Anyway, this still won't work.
1. Your comparisons are completely arbitral. Do you really have the exact data for what Humanity can produce and lift into orbit? You pile complex calculations upon numbers you simply invented.
2. You can't deploy those Orion swarms anywhere near a jump zone and expect them to stay there, since they will drift off without constant course corrections.
3. Rolling Stones down a mountain? Now that's utter nonsense. You'll need a hundred thousand Orions for just a single jump point, since it will be several light-minutes big (a cylinder of about 1LM in diameter and about 10 LM length). There's no "terrain" or narrow mountain trails in space.

You are so engrossed in your fantasy that anything we might say won't convince you otherwise. Therefore, what's the point of this thread anyway? At first, I thought that you were trolling, but this is way too much futile dedication.

[boldilocks]

I'm pretty sure our own solar systems jump point, or jump zone, will be more than a hundred thousand LM^3 to cover. Double that if they can arrive from any side.

[inxsi]

Iirc arioch said somewhere that jump point is about 1 light second wide.
+ If if jump point were so big it dosent make sense for jump point guard stations to exist, but they do and we saw more then one.

An inbound jump zone is comparatively narrow, not much more than 1 light minute wide, but a "safe jump" into a Sunlike star can arrive anywhere along that line more than an AU in length, or about 8-10 LM.

Do you have any guidelines for what area an unsafe jump into a Sunlike star would be? And how risky that jump would be?

[Arioch]

Iirc arioch said somewhere that jump point is about 1 light second wide.
+ If if jump point were so big it dosent make sense for jump point guard stations to exist, but they do and we saw more then one.

An inbound jump zone is comparatively narrow, not much more than 1 light minute wide, but a "safe jump" into a Sunlike star can arrive anywhere along that line more than an AU in length, or about 8-10 LM.

Do you have any guidelines for what area an unsafe jump into a Sunlike star would be? And how risky that jump would be?

For each pair of masses (stars), there is an optimal "max safe" departing velocity and position that targets you right down the middle of the safe jump zone. But hyperspace isn't flat, and since it can't be directly observed, the topography can only be estimated, so you don't always arrive where you aim for. In addition, there is a sliding scale of position and velocity on either side of the "optimal" values, out to a certain tolerance, at which you can jump and still expect to arrive somewhere in the zone illustrated below for the inbound jump zone between Alpha Centauri and Sol.



The "safe" boundaries are arbitrarily defined by the various national transit authorities (Umiak have a different determination of what is "safe" than the Loroi do, for example). A "deep" jump (with distance/velocity higher than nominal) has the average arrival point somewhere closer to the Sun than the illustrated zone, and a "short" jump has an average arrival point farther out. The greater the deviance from the optimal values, the greater the chance of falling into the Sun or skipping off back into hyperspace, and the risk curve is not linear, because the curvature of the gravity well you're trying to connect with is not flat.

I don't have a formula for how that risk level would be calculated.

[gaerzi]

Jupiter's orbit pass right through the edge of that jump zone, so an inbound ship with an unlucky timing might end up in the gas giant.

[Dan Wyatt]

Jupiter's orbit pass right through the edge of that jump zone, so an inbound ship with an unlucky timing might end up in the gas giant.

It is unlikely to happen since Jupiter orbit is is much larger and it orbital period is also longer.

[inxsi]

Jupiter's orbit pass right through the edge of that jump zone, so an inbound ship with an unlucky timing might end up in the gas giant.

It is unlikely to happen since Jupiter orbit is is much larger and it orbital period is also longer.

The caption for the picture clarifies why colliding with Jupiter is not a risk. "Note: The sizes of the Sun and the planets in (Fig.VI) are NOT to scale, but the distances are. The jump zone indicates appropriate distance from the Sun (4-5 AU) but not location; the Alpha Centauri jump zone is well below the plane of the planets."

[MBehave]

It would be great if you actually put some thought into things...

1.Assumptions were made but they were not arbitrary I looked at real world resource production and Outsider numbers...
Current Earth can make the frames of Hundreds of thousands of Orion missiles a year material wise and not even use 20% of Earths total mining/refining/production capacity...

Each bomb if using a fission trigger needs around 5-9kg of fissionable material... Current Earth cannot produce that as the only method we have of creating more fissionable material is in a fission reactor and there is not enough fissionable material to turn the over 60% of non reactive Uranium into fissionable elements for hundreds of thousands of missiles a year...
Fusion reactors on the other hand don't destroy fissionable material to breed more, which is what humanity uses in 2160...
With current Uranium mining and assuming fusion breeder reactors Earth can produce 2100 Orions a year(all fissionable material for the bombs)
With massive mining projects on par with iron ore production this could be increased to ~ hundred thousand a year but known uranium deposits on Earth would be depleted quickly. If Earth could do mantle mining this wouldn't even be a problem and wouldn't need to mine Mercury.

Assumptions made yes, not in any way arbitary...

2.Wrong... work it out yourself since its already been explained to you and you fail to understand and then make false statements.

3.Its nonsense because you dont even think or research, Just like above.
Which is funny because
It is you who assumes and do so on an arbitary basis not an educated guess.
Further I was UPFRONT about my assumptions, that the assumptions must be true for for Orions to be built in numbers to be effective...

Anyway, this still won't work.
1. Your comparisons are completely arbitral. Do you really have the exact data for what Humanity can produce and lift into orbit? You pile complex calculations upon numbers you simply invented.
2. You can't deploy those Orion swarms anywhere near a jump zone and expect them to stay there, since they will drift off without constant course corrections.
3. Rolling Stones down a mountain? Now that's utter nonsense. You'll need a hundred thousand Orions for just a single jump point, since it will be several light-minutes big (a cylinder of about 1LM in diameter and about 10 LM length). There's no "terrain" or narrow mountain trails in space.

You are so engrossed in your fantasy that anything we might say won't convince you otherwise. Therefore, what's the point of this thread anyway? At first, I thought that you were trolling, but this is way too much futile dedication.

[Bamax]

It would be great if you actually put some thought into things...

1.Assumptions were made but they were not arbitrary I looked at real world resource production and Outsider numbers...
Current Earth can make the frames of Hundreds of thousands of Orion missiles a year material wise and not even use 20% of Earths total mining/refining/production capacity...

Each bomb if using a fission trigger needs around 5-9kg of fissionable material... Current Earth cannot produce that as the only method we have of creating more fissionable material is in a fission reactor and there is not enough fissionable material to turn the over 60% of non reactive Uranium into fissionable elements for hundreds of thousands of missiles a year...
Fusion reactors on the other hand don't destroy fissionable material to breed more, which is what humanity uses in 2160...
With current Uranium mining and assuming fusion breeder reactors Earth can produce 2100 Orions a year(all fissionable material for the bombs)
With massive mining projects on par with iron ore production this could be increased to ~ hundred thousand a year but known uranium deposits on Earth would be depleted quickly. If Earth could do mantle mining this wouldn't even be a problem and wouldn't need to mine Mercury.

Assumptions made yes, not in any way arbitary...

2.Wrong... work it out yourself since its already been explained to you and you fail to understand and then make false statements.

3.Its nonsense because you dont even think or research, Just like above.
Which is funny because
It is you who assumes and do so on an arbitary basis not an educated guess.
Further I was UPFRONT about my assumptions, that the assumptions must be true for for Orions to be built in numbers to be effective...

Anyway, this still won't work.
1. Your comparisons are completely arbitral. Do you really have the exact data for what Humanity can produce and lift into orbit? You pile complex calculations upon numbers you simply invented.
2. You can't deploy those Orion swarms anywhere near a jump zone and expect them to stay there, since they will drift off without constant course corrections.
3. Rolling Stones down a mountain? Now that's utter nonsense. You'll need a hundred thousand Orions for just a single jump point, since it will be several light-minutes big (a cylinder of about 1LM in diameter and about 10 LM length). There's no "terrain" or narrow mountain trails in space.

You are so engrossed in your fantasy that anything we might say won't convince you otherwise. Therefore, what's the point of this thread anyway? At first, I thought that you were trolling, but this is way too much futile dedication.

If I say something important will you hear me out? Please?

If you have not convinced your internet foes by now, do you think you ever will?

Do you think he or they will ever concede defeat and admit you are right? Even if you are?

I am not trying to get political, but when is the last time you ever saw a great national superpower publically admit they were totally wrong about.... anything?

It is fine to have views, but this back and forth is only creating hostilty as far as I can see.

Since we can control and change ourselves, but really have limited control over others to the extent they even allow it, why worry if the end result is negative.


You have points that definitely could work against more realistic foes, but due to inertial reductors that INCREASE both efficiency and thrust dramatically, which both the Umiak and the Loroi have in excess, you would have to hit 30g targets that can do that for 100 hours.

And worry about being mission killed from half a light second away.

By mission kill I mean disabled. Easy to do to the exposed piston assembly, unless you armor that too, which will lower thrust a bit.


Fusion helps, but if humanti DOES NOT have inettia reductors (dampeners) they are hopelessly outclassed.

Ever play chess?

This is like humaniti with two rows of pawns vs a regular black chess set.

It's not fair.

If the. Loroi and Umiak get to cheat physics due to handwavium scifi tech, then realism is at a loss u5nlesd you can drown them in numbers.

Problem is that Umiak are good at supply and demand, and Loroi other hand lack supply but tend to snipe a lot and have their share of Stillstorm-like brillant commanders who are good at strategy.

[Krulle]

SpoilerShow

https://lolnein.com/2015/12/21/internetfight/


Hmm, more and more websites prevent deep links, even though they themselves ripped the content...

[Cthulhu]

Internet fight!

Well, at first I tried to argue in earnest, but this is going absolutely nowhere.

He is trying too hard to stuff too many assumptions and calculations into a fictional universe, way past a point that could be enjoyable for the readers.

Arioch has not fleshed that industrial part of Humanity out yet, because it's not even the point of the comic, yet Mbehave tries to push his Orion swarm fantasy into it no matter what. If it's that important, how about writing a fanfic? Something like a wargame or simulation scenario, perhaps.

Hmm, more and more websites prevent deep links, even though they themselves ripped the content...

This can drain their data limits, also, some hosting providers may outright block it for their low-cost data plans.

[Krulle]

I understand the prohibition of hot-linking, but sites that are ripping their content already?


LOLNein indeed. They now also have a DDOS protection. Previously they explicitly allowed hot-linking (better than stolen content and removal of credits they were fighting with).


And yes, the XKCD one was also one I was thinking of.

[Cthulhu]

I understand the prohibition of hot-linking, but sites that are ripping their content already?


LOLNein indeed. They now also have a DDOS protection. Previously they explicitly allowed hot-linking (better than stolen content and removal of credits they were fighting with).

I think It's the side effect of their DDOS protection.
It works, if you link to the image directly:

SpoilerShow

[MBehave]

I dont care about convincing, its correcting.
Its also amusing, many people on these forums without researching/commenting, I am by no means always right, but I do try to check things out if someone says I am wrong.

Only Orions with humans(organics) on them needs pistons, in reality you can have over 1000g orions using iron/steel and dont care about destroying the drive plate. They also have better turn rates because the bombs can be exploded off side to a further degree without damaging/destroying the pistons.

They are also moving significantly faster, the defending fleet only gets to shoot ~1/3rd the weapons before detonation range.

Its really impossible to estimate hit rates for PD systems vs Torpedoes(evasion)... If we assume 50% hit rates vs normal Umiak/Loroi torpedoes by PD systems and 100% hit rate vs Orions, Orions still have better survival...
Can PD punch though a drive plate or do they need main guns?
What if it takes 3 PD hits on average to kill an Orion or a main gun hit?
This would mean Orions are better unless Umiak/Loroi torpedoes have a 11% or less hit rate from PD systems.

Its impossible to work out which is really better so I just assume they are even.


Orions don't need inertia dampeners, there not manned they are Torpedoes.
Modern anti tank artillery shells which deploy tank seeking warheads above a battlefield have electronics and sensors that experience far higher g forces when fired, 5000g+.

1000g is not even a technical limitation to modern humans.

It would be great if you actually put some thought into things...

1.Assumptions were made but they were not arbitrary I looked at real world resource production and Outsider numbers...
Current Earth can make the frames of Hundreds of thousands of Orion missiles a year material wise and not even use 20% of Earths total mining/refining/production capacity...

Each bomb if using a fission trigger needs around 5-9kg of fissionable material... Current Earth cannot produce that as the only method we have of creating more fissionable material is in a fission reactor and there is not enough fissionable material to turn the over 60% of non reactive Uranium into fissionable elements for hundreds of thousands of missiles a year...
Fusion reactors on the other hand don't destroy fissionable material to breed more, which is what humanity uses in 2160...
With current Uranium mining and assuming fusion breeder reactors Earth can produce 2100 Orions a year(all fissionable material for the bombs)
With massive mining projects on par with iron ore production this could be increased to ~ hundred thousand a year but known uranium deposits on Earth would be depleted quickly. If Earth could do mantle mining this wouldn't even be a problem and wouldn't need to mine Mercury.

Assumptions made yes, not in any way arbitary...

2.Wrong... work it out yourself since its already been explained to you and you fail to understand and then make false statements.

3.Its nonsense because you dont even think or research, Just like above.
Which is funny because
It is you who assumes and do so on an arbitary basis not an educated guess.
Further I was UPFRONT about my assumptions, that the assumptions must be true for for Orions to be built in numbers to be effective...

Anyway, this still won't work.
1. Your comparisons are completely arbitral. Do you really have the exact data for what Humanity can produce and lift into orbit? You pile complex calculations upon numbers you simply invented.
2. You can't deploy those Orion swarms anywhere near a jump zone and expect them to stay there, since they will drift off without constant course corrections.
3. Rolling Stones down a mountain? Now that's utter nonsense. You'll need a hundred thousand Orions for just a single jump point, since it will be several light-minutes big (a cylinder of about 1LM in diameter and about 10 LM length). There's no "terrain" or narrow mountain trails in space.

You are so engrossed in your fantasy that anything we might say won't convince you otherwise. Therefore, what's the point of this thread anyway? At first, I thought that you were trolling, but this is way too much futile dedication.

If I say something important will you hear me out? Please?

If you have not convinced your internet foes by now, do you think you ever will?

Do you think he or they will ever concede defeat and admit you are right? Even if you are?

I am not trying to get political, but when is the last time you ever saw a great national superpower publically admit they were totally wrong about.... anything?

It is fine to have views, but this back and forth is only creating hostilty as far as I can see.

Since we can control and change ourselves, but really have limited control over others to the extent they even allow it, why worry if the end result is negative.


You have points that definitely could work against more realistic foes, but due to inertial reductors that INCREASE both efficiency and thrust dramatically, which both the Umiak and the Loroi have in excess, you would have to hit 30g targets that can do that for 100 hours.

And worry about being mission killed from half a light second away.

By mission kill I mean disabled. Easy to do to the exposed piston assembly, unless you armor that too, which will lower thrust a bit.


Fusion helps, but if humanti DOES NOT have inettia reductors (dampeners) they are hopelessly outclassed.

Ever play chess?

This is like humaniti with two rows of pawns vs a regular black chess set.

It's not fair.

If the. Loroi and Umiak get to cheat physics due to handwavium scifi tech, then realism is at a loss u5nlesd you can drown them in numbers.

Problem is that Umiak are good at supply and demand, and Loroi other hand lack supply but tend to snipe a lot and have their share of Stillstorm-like brillant commanders who are good at strategy.