Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread

[spacewhale]

Just imagine the adhesives you'd need to keep thrusters *glued* to one of these hulls. Though I'm sure they probably also sold Puppeteer Paste for all your space-adhesive needs.

[GeoModder]

But I mean... this is a setting in which the ultra-tech civilization (the Puppeteers) understand less about how gravity works than humans did in 1687... because their homeworld didn't have a moon. Yeah, right.

Wasn't that addressed in a later volume? Perhaps somewhere in the Puppeteer novels by a co-writer of Niven? I seem to recall Shaeffer was meant to think the Puppeteer homeworld didn't have a (large) moon.

[Mithramuse]

Yes, they reconned it in one of the 'Fleet of Worlds' books, written with Edward M. Lerner. Basically they reached the conclusion that the Puppeteers were purposefully paying the 'blackmail' money even when not really needed because it might throw people off the trail... something like that.

--Mithramuse

[Demarquis]

That series was awesome.

[Snoofman]

Random question: what do Umiak young look like? Miniature centaurs like their adult counterparts? Or limbless grubs? How are they nurtured? Or do Umiak instinctively have some self-sufficiency?

[Arioch]

Random question: what do Umiak young look like? Miniature centaurs like their adult counterparts? Or limbless grubs? How are they nurtured? Or do Umiak instinctively have some self-sufficiency?

Umiak hatchlings are miniatures of the adult forms. The ancient Hal-tik Umiak were social nomadic hunters, so mobility was important; eggs were presumably hauled around by the adults during the incubation period, and hatchlings needed to be able to walk within a few days of hatching. Juvenile Hal-tik were fed on blood and viscera from the herd animals that the social groups followed (early pastoralists bled animals without killing them, as Maasai do with cattle) until they were developed enough to handle small prey. Because of the development priority of their legs and elaborate mouthparts, brain development comes relatively late, which is part of the reason that the Hal-tik were considered to be sub-sentient by the related Tizik-tik subspecies. The hatchlings of the sedentary Tizik-tik had much larger heads, were larger overall, and had much longer development periods in which they were helpless and in need of care.

Modern Umiak are primarily descended from the Hal-tik, though they do have a significant amount of Tizik-tik genes and hatchlings are more developmentally like the Tizik-tik in having larger heads and requiring more extensive post-natal care.

[Bamax]

Since Umiak 'speech' is nothing more than a series of clicks with their mandibles (I presume Umiak vocal chords do not allow them to speak like a normal person), I think there is only a limited amount of ways it could be adapted for TV or a movie.


1. Text translation to screen: This seems the only viable option.

2. Speech translator devices like on star trek.


Other questions: During the siege of Seren, how exactly would Umiak communicate with Loroi in general?

My guess is via speech translators like with Star trek, though I am sure the Loroi also heard the clicky clacks as it was being translated in front of them.

Last question: Do the Umiak have ANY technological countermeasures against Loroi telepathy or not? Because I know Tempo and Fireblade are both exceptional, but the mere fact that others like them exist I would find very scary as a Umiak.

If this goes into spoiler territory do not answer... but if I were Umiak I may feel I have a better chance of survival sparring with Stillstorm's 51st strike group than dealing with a whole PLANET of billions of murderous space elf witches.

[Arioch]

Since Umiak 'speech' is nothing more than a series of clicks with their mandibles (I presume Umiak vocal chords do not allow them to speak like a normal person), I think there is only a limited amount of ways it could be adapted for TV or a movie.

1. Text translation to screen: This seems the only viable option.
2. Speech translator devices like on star trek.

Other questions: During the siege of Seren, how exactly would Umiak communicate with Loroi in general?

Kikitik-27 is using an audio speech translator to speak to Stillstorm in Trade starting on p.86 (and it's explicitly described as such in the narration on p.87), so... yeah. However, this communication is "abnormal," as Kikitik puts it... the Umiak normally don't communicate with the Loroi at all during the course of battle.

Last question: Do the Umiak have ANY technological countermeasures against Loroi telepathy or not? Because I know Tempo and Fireblade are both exceptional, but the mere fact that others like them exist I would find very scary as a Umiak.

I guess that depends on what elements of telepathy you're talking about... clearly the Umiak have some kind of countermeasure against telepathic signature detection. As far as the Loroi know, the Umiak have no technological countermeasures against offensive telepathy, but then... they didn't know about the detection thing either.

[Bamax]

If a Umiak is not keen on being cannon fodder for Stillstorm or getting mind raped or torn apart on Seren... does he at least have the option like... to do alternative service where he does not have to fight on the front lines?

Or is it more like the war in Ukraine where Russian men have been videotaped injuring themselves to be unfit tor the draft... meaning little if any choice is in the matter?

Or is it a peer pressure thing like high control group religions like the one I used to belong to?

Namely where tons of social pressure is put upon you to DO what the authority currently wants or needs, and if you do not do it or actively support it your social status becomes basically... a nobody and not many will show you much attention or even invite you to social events.

[Arioch]

If a Umiak is not keen on being cannon fodder for Stillstorm or getting mind raped or torn apart on Seren... does he at least have the option like... to do alternative service where he does not have to fight on the front lines?

Or is it more like the war in Ukraine where Russian men have been videotaped injuring themselves to be unfit tor the draft... meaning little if any choice is in the matter?

Or is it a peer pressure thing like high control group religions like the one I used to belong to?

Namely where tons of social pressure is put upon you to DO what the authority currently wants or needs, and if you do not do it or actively support it your social status becomes basically... a nobody and not many will show you much attention or even invite you to social events.

The Umiak combatants that Union forces are likely to run into in combat aren't drafted Umiak civilians; they're artificially-conceived cogs in the war machine that have been bred and raised specifically for their roles. Even those that have been raised "normally" (that is, hatched and raised to adulthood in the usual amount of time through traditional education and upbringing) have lived in an information-controlled environment that's under the total control of the state. Even for an ordinary civilian Umiak, for whom duty and humility is a prime directive, the notion of refusing hazardous duty would be considered quite shocking; but for a purpose-bred Umiak soldier, it would be unthinkable. Anyone who showed even the slightest inclination to try to avoid military service would, at best, quickly find itself in a psych ward.

Umiak aren't robots and their morale isn't unshakeable, but problems more often occur when Umiak crews experience a lack of action, rather than the other way around.

(At this stage of the war, there's very little close-quarters combat going on in which Loroi psionic abilities could be a threat. Most of the large Loroi populations under Umiak occupation have by this point either been liberated by the Union or exterminated by the Umiak. Since Semoset, having failed to control occupied Loroi on captured planets, the Umiak will mostly destroy enemy targets rather than trying to capture them when the opportunity presents itself, unless there is a particularly compelling reason to risk it, or if they think the risk can be properly managed.)

[Bamax]

The Umiak combatants that Union forces are likely to run into in combat aren't drafted Umiak civilians; they're artificially-conceived cogs in the war machine that have been bred and raised specifically for their roles. Even those that have been raised "normally" (that is, hatched and raised to adulthood in the usual amount of time through traditional education and upbringing) have lived in an information-controlled environment that's under the total control of the state. Even for an ordinary civilian Umiak, for whom duty and humility is a prime directive, the notion of refusing hazardous duty would be considered quite shocking; but for a purpose-bred Umiak soldier, it would be unthinkable. Anyone who showed even the slightest inclination to try to avoid military service would, at best, quickly find itself in a psych ward.

Umiak aren't robots and their morale isn't unshakeable, but problems more often occur when Umiak crews experience a lack of action, rather than the other way around.

(At this stage of the war, there's very little close-quarters combat going on in which Loroi psionic abilities could be a threat. Most of the large Loroi populations under Umiak occupation have by this point either been liberated by the Union or exterminated by the Umiak. Since Semoset, having failed to control occupied Loroi on captured planets, the Umiak will mostly destroy enemy targets rather than trying to capture them when the opportunity presents itself, unless there is a particularly compelling reason to risk it, or if they think the risk can be properly managed.)

Oh believe me when I say I well know what it is like to live under high information control... frankly learning that the group I used to belong to was keeping it's mistakes obscured or hidden from average members was a big part of why I left.

I do not like hypochrisy especially when they put themselves up on a pedestal as correct and all others false.... when it turns out they are guilty of the exact same things they denounce other groups for in their literature.


But back to the Umiak... I hope they have some good going away parties before being shipped off. Since surely the new recruits are aware that Stillstorm and company are going to make it a one way trip like they did with their comrades... right? Or perhaps not.

Perhaps the high control of information is not telling the truth about how high Umiak casualties actually are... which would not surprise me as I am aware of countries IRL that do that.

Afterall if Umiak are known for deception with aliens they surely will use it on each other.

[Arioch]

hope they have some good going away parties before being shipped off. Since surely the new recruits are aware that Stillstorm and company are going to make it a one way trip like they did with their comrades... right? Or perhaps not.

Perhaps the high control of information is not telling the truth about how high Umiak casualties actually are... which would not surprise me as I am aware of countries IRL that do that.

Sure, there are celebrations of the sort you would expect of any graduation or coming-of-age ceremony. But new crews (they aren't "recruits"; Umiak don't recruit soldiers, they manufacture them) aren't being sent directly into combat. The majority of new crews are assigned to new ships, and new ships are sent to reinforce the defensive bivouac fleets. The Umiak keep very large defensive fleets all across the front lines to deter Loroi attacks (as the Umiak don't have Farseers and so can't see the attacks coming ahead of time) in addition to large reserves behind the lines. But in the current stage of the war, the Loroi are almost entirely on the defensive, so the Umiak bivouac fleets mostly sit around doing nothing. The Umiak send regular attacks against Loroi lines, but since these are frequently suicide attacks, they mostly use older ships that are starting to lose combat readiness. As I mentioned, it's when they've been inactive for years and years that Umiak crews start to suffer decreased morale; and when these guys finally get sent off to fight, they're usually pretty enthusiastic about it.

And no, the state doesn't tell them what their odds are or what the casualties have been... or how long the war has been going on, or what the actual size or population of the Umiak empire is, or where their homeworld is or if it still even exists, or what kind of government they have or who leads it, et cetera. The state doesn't tell them anything that they don't need to know, partly because it could interfere with their focus or morale, but also because they will be fighting an enemy that can capture them like puppets and read their minds. So they live in a bubble, with no families to miss them or homes to return to. The war is their life; it's all they've ever known or will ever know.

[Bamax]

Sure, there are celebrations of the sort you would expect of any graduation or coming-of-age ceremony. But new crews (they aren't "recruits"; Umiak don't recruit soldiers, they manufacture them) aren't being sent directly into combat. The majority of new crews are assigned to new ships, and new ships are sent to reinforce the defensive bivouac fleets. The Umiak keep very large defensive fleets all across the front lines to deter Loroi attacks (as the Umiak don't have Farseers and so can't see the attacks coming ahead of time) in addition to large reserves behind the lines. But in the current stage of the war, the Loroi are almost entirely on the defensive, so the Umiak bivouac fleets mostly sit around doing nothing. The Umiak send regular attacks against Loroi lines, but since these are frequently suicide attacks, they mostly use older ships that are starting to lose combat readiness. As I mentioned, it's when they've been inactive for years and years that Umiak crews start to suffer decreased morale; and when these guys finally get sent off to fight, they're usually pretty enthusiastic about it.

And no, the state doesn't tell them what their odds are or what the casualties have been... or how long the war has been going on, or what the actual size or population of the Umiak empire is, or where their homeworld is or if it still even exists, or what kind of government they have or who leads it, et cetera. The state doesn't tell them anything that they don't need to know, partly because it could interfere with their focus or morale, but also because they will be fighting an enemy that can capture them like puppets and read their minds. So they live in a bubble, with no families to miss them or homes to return to. The war is their life; it's all they've ever known or will ever know.

Normally I would not feel sorry for a bug... but I do now.

So I presume kitik 27 is like other high ranking Umiak.

He likely knows stuff lower ranking Umiak do not... like perhaps he knows the the exact casualty rates the 51st strike group inflicts.

Who knows what else... but he would be a high value target for Loroi capture for mind rape if there ever was one.

Which is why as Stilly noted he ran for his life while his bored to death comrades ran to fight her only to die in waves.

While all Umiak are expendable... some are less so... and that includes kitik 27.

And I am sure he knows.

[Quickdraw101]

This type of information make me think of the Umiak as nothing more than biological robots, so even if they weren’t at war with someone, it seems almost impossible to befriend or even socialize with one of them. Even more so since they are literally vat born like Kryptonians were, only with an even more depressing society and culture. The concept of friendship must be very strange to them because of that I reckon.

[Bamax]

This type of information make me think of the Umiak as nothing more than biological robots, so even if they weren’t at war with someone, it seems almost impossible to befriend or even socialize with one of them. Even more so since they are literally vat born like Kryptonians were, only with an even more depressing society and culture. The concept of friendship must be very strange to them because of that I reckon.

Friendship is universal... but it does mean that high information control limits who their 'friends' are, especially the soldiers.

Believe me I know, I lived under a high control group for most of my life and guess what?

They forbid any friendship with outsiders UNLESS they are actively trying to join or support the group.... because it means your life and they cannot be saved unless they join us... that IS what they teach.


So now that I am free I have the harrowing road ahead of rebuilding my life as well as gaining friends from people not forced into group-think mentality or else kind of thinking.

[Arioch]

Umiak crews do form strong friendships, mainly among the other crewmembers, and occasionally among stationside support staff and other ships' crews, and they can be fiercely loyal. But on the Zero Line (which is a term I heard a Ukrainian soldier use to refer to the "front line," which I will now use at any and every opportunity ), most of a soldier's life is spend aboard ship among a limited community. For the most part, they live their short lives cheerfully and expend their efforts to make their homes comfortable and tailored to their own communal identity.

For planetside support staff and Umiak civilians, there will be more of what we might consider a "normal" society, with wider social interactions and more leisure time options, though there is still tight state control, and civilian Umiak are as obsessive-compulsive about work as the shipboard crews. In ports there are some interactions with alien members of the Hierarchy, and before the war there were Union traders as well (limited to the border ports), but communication was always difficult due to the nature of Umiak language. With their mechanical translators, Umiak can make themselves roughly understood, but an intimate connection will be difficult with an alien who doesn't speak fluent ikkukhak... and there aren't many of those, as it takes a Listel-like attention to detail to follow the multithreaded stream of consciousness that is Umiak conversation.

[Bamax]

True but music, sports, and games transcend language barriers.

Anyone up for a game of chess with a Umiak?

Contact sports may be a bad idea for obvious reasons, but who knows?

Basketball maybe?

Baseball could work though I have always hated it for all the waiting around.

Dodgeball would be epic... I also imagine Loroi would love dodgeball too lol.

The Umiak may not like dodgeball as much or any contact sport since they have a lot of vulnerble parts due to all the eyes they have.

[Cthulhu]

True but music, sports, and games transcend language barriers.

Anyone up for a game of chess with a Umiak?

Contact sports may be a bad idea for obvious reasons, but who knows?

Basketball maybe?

Baseball could work though I have always hated it for all the waiting around.

Dodgeball would be epic... I also imagine Loroi would love dodgeball too lol.

The Umiak may not like dodgeball as much or any contact sport since they have a lot of vulnerble parts due to all the eyes they have.

Sport should be out of the question for a very simple reason, the Umiak are a low-G species. Besides, their anatomy is also far too different as compared to the more humanoid races.

By the way, given a normal set of rules, Loroi would be disqualified from any physical competition. Telekinesis is far too much of a cheat, especially in sports where precision is important. Baseball? Imagine the other team steering balls mid-flight!


Since we're talking about the Umiak internal dealings, how is their government structured? Is it a more familiar hierarchy of administration (planetary, system, sector governors) and command (officer ranks) systems? Or is it based on clusters, production chains, task groups, perhaps even transient structures which are formed according to current needs?

P.S. Zero line? Never heard that one. Sounds unnecessary dramatic.

[Arioch]

Sport should be out of the question for a very simple reason, the Umiak are a low-G species. Besides, their anatomy is also far too different as compared to the more humanoid races.

I think that even between similar humanoid species, the physical differences would just be too great to allow for fair competitive sports.

230 cm tall Barsam: "Want to play tackle football?"
90 cm tall Neridi: "No, not really."

Since we're talking about the Umiak internal dealings, how is their government structured? Is it a more familiar hierarchy of administration (planetary, system, sector governors) and command (officer ranks) systems? Or is it based on clusters, production chains, task groups, perhaps even transient structures which are formed according to current needs?

The Umiak government is a massive decentralized bureaucracy. There are threads of authority that run from top to bottom, but it's complicated and asymmetrical... you'd need to have an Umiak's manic attention to detail to know who has the last say on what matter in what circumstances. Where possible, decisions are left to lower levels of authority since that's usually more efficient, but that can sometimes mean that Umiak responses to events can seem uncoordinated, as in the early days of the Semoset offensive.

A little more about the Hierarchy here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=884&p=46246#p46246

P.S. Zero line? Never heard that one. Sounds unnecessary dramatic.

I think it refers to the distance from point of enemy contact, similar to "zero hour" for the start time of a plan.

[Cthulhu]

I think that even between similar humanoid species, the physical differences would just be too great to allow for fair competitive sports.

230 cm tall Barsam: "Want to play tackle football?"
90 cm tall Neridi: "No, not really."

Well, the Neridi and Barsam would at least be able to operate in the same G-range. The Umiak? Not so much. Unless it's a hardtrooper, of course. Such monsters are more suited for the Blood Bowl instead of football, though.

By the way, are there any cross-species competitions in the Union?

The Umiak government is a massive decentralized bureaucracy. There are threads of authority that run from top to bottom, but it's complicated and asymmetrical... you'd need to have an Umiak's manic attention to detail to know who has the last say on what matter in what circumstances. Where possible, decisions are left to lower levels of authority since that's usually more efficient, but that can sometimes mean that Umiak responses to events can seem uncoordinated, as in the early days of the Semoset offensive.

A little more about the Hierarchy here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=884&p=46246#p46246

Yeah, I've read that part, but it sounds quite complicated, both from a "common bug", as well as an outside point of view. You'd need to understand the logic behind that system, but would a crew-bug even have the necessary knowledge to deduct the pattern? I was thinking about writing a more Umiak-centered fanfic next, yet this seems to be a high hurdle. Oh, well, I haven't found a good way to integrate their stack-based native conversations either, so maybe I'll do something else instead.

I think it refers to the distance from point of enemy contact, similar to "zero hour" for the start time of a plan.

In Russian, it's either simply front-line, or "touch/contact line". Zero line is a rather new term.