Warhammer 40,000

[Sprawl63]

All this talk of artificial limbs just makes me reminded of a bad experience in a recent gaming secession...

*shudders* here comes the Manei Domini...

Imagine a Human with a ton of strength, runs faster than you, can spit poison, take a bullet and track you down by the sound of your beating heart... Not fun when they have those kind of prosthetic...

Now back to topic, I would think by growing back the limb it would eliminate phantom limb syndrome?

Sounds like a 40k space marine, and they're only biologically and genetically enhanced.

Spiting poison? Sounds exactly like a space marine.

[fredgiblet]

Sounds like a 40k space marine, and they're only biologically and genetically enhanced.

1. Fairly certain SPEES MUHREENS receive cybernetic augs as well.
2. 40k is as soft as possible for sci-fi. Probably softer than Star Trek if that's possible.

[javcs]

Nah, Astartes generally only get cybernetic augments/replacements for limbs/organs/body parts that they've lost due to injury, except for the Tech-Marines, who are a mix of Space Marine and Mechanicus Tech-priest. I mean, yeah, there'll be some exceptions (it is 40k after all), but they're mainly just genetic enhancements and bio-augments, plus the mutagenic implants.

40k is crazy soft sci fi. Definitely softer than Star Trek.

[fredgiblet]

Point being, bioaugs can hypothetically achieve the same results as pure bionics.

While it's a fair point 40k is possibly the worst possible example to use as a comparison to real life.

[Arioch]

Warhammer 40,000 makes Star Wars look like hard science fiction by comparison. And I say that with all due affection.

[elizibar]

Warhammer 40,000 makes Star Wars look like hard science fiction by comparison. And I say that with all due affection.

FOR THE EMPRAH!

[Sprawl63]

Sounds like a 40k space marine, and they're only biologically and genetically enhanced.

1. Fairly certain SPEES MUHREENS receive cybernetic augs as well.
2. 40k is as soft as possible for sci-fi. Probably softer than Star Trek if that's possible.

Individual things in 40K aren't completely implausible themselves, like lasguns and a surprising amount of the augmentations for the SPEES MUREENS. Thrown all together like they are, definitely.

I love 40K, its grimdark for the sake of grimdark. The most OP universe since the Culture.

On that note, I'm going to recommend Altered Carbon to everyone here. Great hardbroiled sci-fi novel with some really cool angles.

[fredgiblet]

On that note, I'm going to recommend Altered Carbon to everyone here.

Seconded

[junk]

Point being, bioaugs can hypothetically achieve the same results as pure bionics.

While it's a fair point 40k is possibly the worst possible example to use as a comparison to real life.

The thing about 40k is that's it's not entirely implausible. While a large number seem unusual, keep in mind that a slew of the issues is explained inside of the setting. Essentially some 95% of all their military tech is recovered agricultural technology merely repurposed for war.

Likewise some of their more esoteric technology like Titans exist, because of the symbology they represent in the first place. Even in the setting they are not entirely supereffective, albeit extremely deadly. But they are walking hulking churches.

Thirdly - the warp, which explain a slew of a billion other things.

Lastly - the things humanity forces routinely. While inside of the setting, the majority of humans armies seem weak and pitiful, that is only the case in comparison to everything else in the universe.

The lowly active duty guardsmen, from a regiment that's at least a year or two old will probably be a vastly deadlier, far better trained soldier than any you could find on earth these days. It's just that everything is tougher, stronger, deadlier, more resilient and what not in comparison to an unaugmented human they seem well like nothing.

As a last bit of info. Many people argue that the imperium is implausible because it doesn't innovate. The truth is a bit more complex. The whole thing is at relatively constant war, and it needs a stable industrial complex to keep it's troops equiped. Changing the production lines of even one forgeworld to make more expensive, marginally better weapons is just far too cost ineffective to do and could upset the delicate balance that is already stressed more than enough. When all you usually need is just a couple million more soldiers, you will just get those. Humans breed fast.

Well one more bit I guess. While in a lot of cases Wh40k is extremely soft sci fi, many of these things are explained by the technology being so horribly horribly advanced that there's barely any way to understand or even describe it.

The lasgun is for instance physically impossible to our knowledge.

for the record - star wars makes wh40k look like the most plausible and physically correct setting under the sun. I like both, but the sheer amount of implausibility in SW sociology and technology just sometimes hurts my brain. Wh40k at least has a very DuneEsque aproach to it's explanation and those explanations at least usually work in universe - and in some Real world logic can be somewhat applied and it works. As long as you understand the premise of wh40 - aka humans are physically the weakest, have the third best tech after eldar and necron, and have a massive overpowering church which preys on very very very real fears. SW utterly lacks this.

[Sprawl63]

Point being, bioaugs can hypothetically achieve the same results as pure bionics.

While it's a fair point 40k is possibly the worst possible example to use as a comparison to real life.

The thing about 40k is that's it's not entirely implausible. While a large number seem unusual, keep in mind that a slew of the issues is explained inside of the setting. Essentially some 95% of all their military tech is recovered agricultural technology merely repurposed for war.

Likewise some of their more esoteric technology like Titans exist, because of the symbology they represent in the first place. Even in the setting they are not entirely supereffective, albeit extremely deadly. But they are walking hulking churches.

Thirdly - the warp, which explain a slew of a billion other things.

Lastly - the things humanity forces routinely. While inside of the setting, the majority of humans armies seem weak and pitiful, that is only the case in comparison to everything else in the universe.

The lowly active duty guardsmen, from a regiment that's at least a year or two old will probably be a vastly deadlier, far better trained soldier than any you could find on earth these days. It's just that everything is tougher, stronger, deadlier, more resilient and what not in comparison to an unaugmented human they seem well like nothing.

As a last bit of info. Many people argue that the imperium is implausible because it doesn't innovate. The truth is a bit more complex. The whole thing is at relatively constant war, and it needs a stable industrial complex to keep it's troops equiped. Changing the production lines of even one forgeworld to make more expensive, marginally better weapons is just far too cost ineffective to do and could upset the delicate balance that is already stressed more than enough. When all you usually need is just a couple million more soldiers, you will just get those. Humans breed fast.

Well one more bit I guess. While in a lot of cases Wh40k is extremely soft sci fi, many of these things are explained by the technology being so horribly horribly advanced that there's barely any way to understand or even describe it.

The lasgun is for instance physically impossible to our knowledge.

for the record - star wars makes wh40k look like the most plausible and physically correct setting under the sun. I like both, but the sheer amount of implausibility in SW sociology and technology just sometimes hurts my brain. Wh40k at least has a very DuneEsque aproach to it's explanation and those explanations at least usually work in universe - and in some Real world logic can be somewhat applied and it works. As long as you understand the premise of wh40 - aka humans are physically the weakest, have the third best tech after eldar and necron, and have a massive overpowering church which preys on very very very real fears. SW utterly lacks this.

I've heard a lot of explanations on why the Imperium hasn't advanced in tens of thousands of years, but thats undoubtedly the best.

I remember hearing that terminator armor is really just re-purposed engineering armor used for working on plasma cores.

[junk]

Honestly not sure about terminator armour. I actually think that terminator armour is military technology, though post collapse. Since the full name is tactical dreadnaught armour.
But when talking about marines - their armour is actually a relative halmark of advance. They're on mark VIII or something by now, and each mark was either an improvement on the predecessor or a specialist suit.

Marines are relatively exempt from the lack of advancement because there's a finite number of them in a sense so they do actually get newer stuff.

Armour, weapons, munitions etc. Still the whole of the imperium is just so giant and each new technology so stringently guarded, it gets around only slowly.

EDIT
Nice topic split Arioch

[icekatze]

hi hi

The thing that always cracks me about Warhammer 40,000 is that they have these big huge spaceships, and then they fight on the ground with troops and things. Seriously though, I don't mind too much, I mean they've essentially got magic, so who am I to complain?

[junk]

Well in a sense - why waste a planet. Sure almost all the sides have capabilities to render them uninhabitable. But all want something from them usually. So unless you have a really bad situation and can gain something from killing everyone and everything on, the imperium won't do it.

Plus most of the sides are batshit insane enough, that the threat of an orbital fleet above them doesn't make them surrender usually. Not to mention that surrendering is usually a bad idea in that universe.

[Tamren]

Something to keep in mind about 40k is that the golden age of technology already happened. They may have hit the Singularity, but then someone dun goofed.

Its a lot different from something like Star Wars which is locked in "star-medieval stasis". Or a setting that is pre/post Singularity with the effects of technology in full swing.

[javcs]

The reason that there is effectively no technological advancement in 40k is because of the way the Mechanicus works - they have a more or less absolute monopoly on all technology. And they treat it as religion. Everything is ritualized, from pressing the power button on a computer to turning on a lightswitch. Innovation is actively restricted. And generally punished with the charge and subsequent conviction of tech-heresy, and you get turned into a servitor, if you're lucky.
In addition, the Mechanicus considers the (mostly lost) STC the be-all, end-all of knowledge.

I'm curious as to where the perception of 40k warfighting tech being repurposed agricultural tech comes from.

Titans are effective in the setting ... but they're exceedingly rare and valuable.

On why they don't just kill planets ... they do ... as an absolute last resort - habitable planets are valuable resources. Terraforming is effectively unknown, and arguably considered techno-heretical.

Terminators, aka Tactical Dreadnought, armor predates the Horus Heresy. It was in the process of being introduced to the Astartes Legions in the time leading up to the Heresy.
Astartes Aquila Armor ... Mark I was widespread on Terra during the Emperor's unification. Marks II-V were fielded during the Crusade, and Mark VI was introduced by Loyalist forces during the Heresy, I believe. Marks VII and VIII were fielded after the Heresy, and the only difference between Mark VII and Mark VIII is the Mark VIII has an enlarged gorget, which provides an increase in protection to the neck area, relative to the Mark VII and previous marks of Armor. That's only two new models that are practically identical to one another anyways, in around 10k years.
Mark VI is more or less equivalent to Mark VII, though in some ways better.

A (rediscovered) model of armored vehicle is still considered "new" and "unproven" by some Astartes Chapters after a thousand years.

In general, in the Imperium, Older is Better.
I wouldn't say the the Imperium of Man has the 3rd best tech in the setting - it's Necrons>Eldar/Dark Eldar> Everybody else. In terms of ground warfare, the Tau have a generally higher level of technology than the Imperium. The Imperium, however, is vastly larger than the Tau (who are a purely local power), and thus more powerful. If the Imperium wanted to, the Tau would be crushed, but the Imperium is preoccupied with the Tyranids and a surge of Necron activity in the area.

[fredgiblet]

The thing about 40k is that's it's not entirely implausible. While a large number seem unusual, keep in mind that a slew of the issues is explained inside of the setting.

That's totally irrelevant to the point. It doesn't matter if Space Marines make sense technologically in the setting, they still are totally inapplicable to real life. Saying that bioaugs might match cybernetics is perfectly reasonable, citing Space Marines as your example is like claiming that the Greeks were badass warriors and citing Spartans as your example.

Well one more bit I guess. While in a lot of cases Wh40k is extremely soft sci fi, many of these things are explained by the technology being so horribly horribly advanced that there's barely any way to understand or even describe it.

And that is called handwaving, the hallmark of soft sci-fi.

for the record - star wars makes wh40k look like the most plausible and physically correct setting under the sun. I like both, but the sheer amount of implausibility in SW sociology and technology just sometimes hurts my brain. Wh40k at least has a very DuneEsque aproach to it's explanation and those explanations at least usually work in universe - and in some Real world logic can be somewhat applied and it works. As long as you understand the premise of wh40 - aka humans are physically the weakest, have the third best tech after eldar and necron, and have a massive overpowering church which preys on very very very real fears. SW utterly lacks this.

Jell-O is harder than pudding, but Talc still has them both beat. You can argue which one is harder if you like, but neither one of them is remotely close to plausible.

[discord]

40k vs SW....technologically they are both a mess, although i have been working in trying to fix some of the SW mess for RPG purposes....but that is beside the point...

the big difference is social, SW is a melting pot of thousands of different cultures, and 40k is just....insane....although the warp explains WHY they might be insane, it still should not work...unless we again take 'mass psionics' like waagh powah to explain that it works because lots of people think it should....

at which point the greatest weapon ever fielded in the 40k 'verse would be mass psychology and infomercials....as i said, insane....compared to star wars which is merely crazy.

[junk]

Tau tech.

Keep in mind there's essentially one massive difference between imperial and tau tech and that is flashyness and reliance on AI systems. The Tau are at least two three technology generations behind humans, they merely have a different philosophy.

Their Empire is tiny, so they can still equip their soldier with very high upkeep gear. Since they can easily send in replacements, repairs and similar. The imperium has absolutely no luxury and in effect their armies, with the exception of marines are equiped with weapons that essentially require zero management, zero ammo, and will generally outlive it's user.

Tau stuff just uh looks flashier, and more streamlined as opposed to the more gothic inspired imperial tech which looks "crude" in comparison. The thing is, it just looks crude. Plus the whole butlerian Djihad thing expy.

As to mass psychology being the strongest weapon in 40k - it actually kinda is. Like I said - sociologically it feels that wh40k is a lot more stable than a bunch of other sci fi universes which are merely today's world with space travel/

And when it comes to hard and soft sci fi, I personally have two scales. Technological hardness and sociological hardness. With both playing an important role as perceived hardness goes.


Though another setting that's fairly enjoyable and doesn't feature that low on the hardness scale is Haldeman's Forever war. Definitely a very good read.

[Sparkling]

I love Warhammer 40k:)
Awesome game!

[Cy83r]

Yes, just look at the wargame, Imp vehicles are boxy, have huge target profiles, and use a minimum of sloping armor yet have decent if not amazing armor values compared to similar if lesser values on Tau skimmers that have the whole organic heavy sloping style down pat. Imagine what that implies about the relative strengths and thicknesses of each vehicle's armor and remember that the pinnacle of IG armor, the Leman Russ mounts heavy ordnance weapons while still powering along (gotta love the 5e codex), an equivalent piece of Tau armor has nasty weapons, sure, but they don't have the level of ubiquitous sheer overkill that Imperial designs go for.

From what I can tell, the setting is, if not hard science fiction, at least internally consistent in the sheer belligerence of human designs (Matt Ward's Grey Knights notwithstanding).