Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Bamax
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Bamax »

Arioch wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:27 am
Bamax wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:28 am
How long can Loroi and Umiak vessels cruise around at their max before running out of fuel?
It would vary by ship; different ships have different top accelerations, fuel capacities and efficiencies. I think the estimate I've used previously was that a typical Loroi cruiser (Scimitar) could maintain full 30g acceleration for something like 100 hours. From a standing start:

s = ½at²
s = ½(30*9.8m/s/s)(100*3600s)²
s = 19,051,200,000,000 m = 1,059 light minutes = 127 AU.

For comparison, Pluto's mean orbital radius is 39.4 AU.
Thanks.

I see..so they can essentially go where they want...just not to the Oort cloud (halfway to Proxima Centauri).

Normally in a setting like yours I would wonder why people are not just using spaceships like RKV's, since 100 hours of 30g is dangerous collision speed.

Yet the long range weapons would wreck them from speed alone.....weapons do more damage head on at that speed.

So no need for answer....as that IS the answer why they do not just do RKV ship attacks.


Based on all these specifications, your aliens would definitely wreck the ones in a scifi setting I am developing. At least on offense.

In mine: The main alien race uses antimatter particle cannon with a max effective range of 10,000 kilometers (one hexagram tile for your setting). They don't really use proper scifi shields, so offense can make or break them. AM particles can cover a thousand kilometers in a second, so it takes ten seconds to reach it's max effective range before the beam starts to spread.


Defense: This is where they shine....mainly due to their propulsion and travel system....which in some ways is better than either the Loroi or Umiak. Their drives usually take years of use before the cores become 'poisoned' and require reprocessing to make them reusable again. This is not a standard propellant exhaust drive. While manned vessels lack inertial dampeners, they can fly with good thrust (1-5g) but cannot go faster than they can tolerate for long (1g).

Which still is kinda mute given the 30g and inertial dampeners used in Outsider.....but that's not all they have.


Their Pride and Joy: Warp/translation of space drives.
Moving space past the vessel without actually accelerating.

Coincidentally they have cheap warp space drives that warp space at an accelerating rate of 5g, while mid-price warp at 15g, and expensive warp space at 30g.


While at warp any acceleration done is like running on a treadmill, it's good for gravity due to acceleration but nothing else, since you cannot go anywhere on a treadmill. Yet ships can still pitch, yaw, and rotate, but will only fly as if locked into the direction they are at warp until they drop out.

Upon dropping out of warp conservation of momentum means you will continue your previous course based on inertia, which can easily be a totally different direction from which you warped.

The ship can launch missiles at warp, but once they leave the immediate warp region of space they will return to their former inertial drift before warp.


Main Advantage: Expensive warp drive vessels are faster than even Loroi ones. Why?

Because Loroi are ACTUALLY accelerating at 30g, warp vessels are only translating across space by moving it past them at 30g.

Which means Loroi have to retroburn so they do not blow past their target destination, whereas 30g warp can do 30g the whole way, cut it off, and it's true speed and direction be EXACTLY what is needed when they drop out to match the destination....as they would make sure of that before warp anyway.

Warp at 30g is also great for dodging weapons fire, since it would appear to be instant reverse thrust to Loroi, since one could drop forward warp at 30g, and immediately warp backward at 30g, whereas when you actually accelerate newtonian style, you have to cancel out your momentum before physics will allow you to go in the opposite direction.

Granted....none of that would stop the Loroi from training their long range zappers on them. But defense would be a concern. Why?

Missile spam: If you think the Umiak missile spam wait till you attack my home system.

They have literal fleets of thousands of missiles they can deploy from the homeworld at any moment, and like the ships they can accelerate for longer than you expect. They lack warp, but they can definitely fly fast enough to catch my ships or even Outsider ones.

So offensively my race would be a fool to attack either the Loroi or the Umiak, but if either decided to attack the home system they would be greeted by swarms upon swarms of missiles that have delta-v on par with Outsider ships.

They could keep chasing on and on, and during war missile production would skyrocket assuming the homeworld was not alpha striked right away. They would have entire fleets of missiles orbiting the solar system at all times during as the war dragged on.

Defense and dodging is where my race shines, at least against your races.

The FTL system is not really relavent so I won't discuss it, mainly good for arriving in another system, but everything else requires warp and actual acceleration

Krulle
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

It was to be expected that the not-refueled range of a Loroi ship is far beyond one system.
The Loroi strike groups fly through the steppes without a tanker, and cross several systems from jump point to jump point, and back.
And do some heavy fighting in-between.
Granted, they do so mostly without being under continuous max acceleration, which increases the range considerably.
But if you're on a mission to intercept "intruders", you won't be flying slow, but under a continuous acceleration towards the necessary jump points. (Likely close to comfortable values, e.g. Humanships with 1 g, Loroi also around that?)

And I assume, the jumping itself will cost a tremendous amount of power.
It'll be exotic physics after all.
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Bamax
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Bamax »

It occured to me that creating designer races is very much playing God.

I have toyed with the idea of essentially man being the ones to make all other races (hus providing a reason for humanoids).

The reasons for humans making new races would be manifold.

But like all things we make they would be extensions of our hopes, desires, and needs.

Take just about any fantasy race and you can see a motive and purpose:

Big orcs: Security force as they are tough amd big.

Hyper-intelligence: Too many used to count...since smarter thsn baseline human.

Monsters: Security, war, maybe even for as asassins.


Many more that come to mind. The conclusion is that humans are manifolld flawed in tye execution pf projects they make, even if intentions are noble. So that would effect their descendants later on.

I am not saying the Soia are this way...just that the idea of aliens being gods is a concept I have seen and it is interesting in as much races have a purpose.

They may not know what it was, or if it was for good or bad or whether they cam transcend it or not, but it is there nonetheless.

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Snoofman
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Snoofman »

Bamax wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:42 am
It occured to me that creating designer races is very much playing God...

...The conclusion is that humans are manifolld flawed in tye execution pf projects they make, even if intentions are noble. So that would effect their descendants later on.

I am not saying the Soia are this way...just that the idea of aliens being gods is a concept I have seen and it is interesting in as much races have a purpose.

They may not know what it was, or if it was for good or bad or whether they cam transcend it or not, but it is there nonetheless.
All this has happened before. All this will happen again.

As great and powerful as the Soia may have been, that does not make them perfect. Superior in some ways, but not infallible. After all, if they were perfect, why did they disappear from the Local Bubble?

There are many pragmatic or recreational reasons why the Soia probably created the other races. But their system seemed to fall apart, just as the precursor empires that came before. Why? Because civilization spirals out of control. It is simply too big and too complex. That almost seems like a recurring theme in Outsider's Precursor Empire lore; that each empire fell apart because even if their systems worked, but it couldn't solve all their problems. Or at least could not solve them fast enough.

I doubt that the Soia saw themselves as gods collectively, although a few probably did. But I'm sure some among them suffered from a superiority complex.

Bamax
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Bamax »

Is it just me, or are Loroi eyes somewhat wider than human eyes?

I noticed that even though Loroi resemble buman women, their eyes seem somehow more...radiant or noticable?

Like Alex eyes seem smaller in comparison.

It can be hard to tell, but all you have to do is check the human pics vs the Loroi ones and you will quicklu notice a difference.

Especially if you check scully vs any Loroi female's eyes.

I think it is size and width. Overall Loroi eye to face ratio is closer to a child than a human adults, but also is a bit wider too.


Yep...that's it. Eyes are bigger. Akin to this:

Image


Image


Comparison to human eyes:

Image

The human female's eyes are wide and STILL are not wide as Loroi eyes.

It's the elf thing...style.

Krulle
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

The Loroi have been designed that way, to use the "baby eyes" effect of their Loroi when meeting other aliens.
They've found that "cuteness", and "baby protection urges" are the most general instincts they can exploit.

And then they gave the space elves telepathy too.
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boldilocks
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

Possibly you don't need small eyes when you're designed to be a space-faring race and not stuck on a planet under a bright blazing sun.

Bamax
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Bamax »

Well it does add to their alien-ness.

It is a very subtle effect really. To be sure their eyes are only slightly wider, and the irises are larger than human ones.

Really Loroi eyes are not simply bigger as the Neko girl image, the whole design is very slight and subtle.


If this ever made it to TV or a movie it may be best served via realistic computer animation.

Since I would want the Loroi to look as they do in the comic...not this:

Image


That is just a human cosplayer.

This is Fireblade:

Image

Wider eyes and bigger pupils. Check. That is Arioch's secret Loroi recipe.

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Snoofman
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Snoofman »

Outsider, if it ever became a film or tv series, would be better off as an animated production. Animated series are making a comeback. Which I think is about time.

Bamax
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Bamax »

New question.


How fast are Outsider beam weapons?

Like I know range is insanely long, but how long does it take to cover the distance?

Obviously beams are faster than missiles, but I reckon with the exception of lasers that move at lightspeed, plasma and particle beams are certsinly sublight....albeit at a high sublight speed.

Like for example, if all plasma and particle beams are fired at lighthugger speed (just below lightspeed), dodging a beam is futile.

On the other hand if a beam takes a second to cross a thousand kilometers, that means if you are 20,000 kilometers away you have 20 seconds to dodge out the way.

The implications for space combat are obvious, since all ships can accelerate for daysat high thrust so dodging is not an issue.

Since ships are dodgy and weapon range is extreme, the best chance of landing a hit is to get as close as possible....especially brcaus they also have scifi shields.

If on the other hand beams all travel at lighthugger speed, then that means ships can afford to hang back and snipe a lot more rather than getting up close and personal.

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Arioch
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

The particle and plasma beams are at high sublight speed.

Bamax
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Bamax »

Arioch wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 pm
The particle and plasma beams are at high sublight speed.
Being vague can be a virtue at times....especially if being specific plays no role in the story.

As is, even if the Loroi know how many seconds till impact they are unlikely to say it given they prefer telepathic speech anyway.


Given the way they fight, I can only assume the beams are below lighthugger speed, low enough that dodging at distant range is possible.

Otherwise I reckon fightercraft would not be a thing.

Really, I would expect newtonian drifting while strafing to be really popular Loroi maneuver given they have the speed advantage.

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Ithekro
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Ithekro »

Ships tend to not travel as lighthugging speeds. Time-dilatation would still be a thing if they got much past half the speed of light. It would take around a day to cross an entire solar system at half the speed of light, but their would be no need to cross the whole thing. Just from the planet of interest to the jump zone. And that could be reached in no more than two hours in a large solar system, and likely much much less in a smaller system, at half the speed of light.

The Highland seemed to have an intercept time of 5 or so hours with the frigate they was to take they out of the system. A trip across a solar system from one jump point to another. A Highland only has an acceleration of 20G, and was not really pushing it all they way (there was no real need until the attack started). But this is a small solar system around a white dwarf star. The jump points may be 2 AU away from each other...so 16 light minutes.

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Arioch
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Even if we assume beams are at or near lightspeed, at long range there will still be a minimum of several seconds of delay between the observation of the target's vector and the arrival of the beam on target. At 30g acceleration, this is enough time for the target to alter its vector by more than a ship length; it doesn't even need to change course, just throttle the acceleration up and down. Beam hits aren't automatic, especially at longer ranges.

Ships don't travel at near-lightspeed velocities, because even at 30g acceleration, it would take 141 hours to reach 50% lightspeed, during which time the ship would displace 256 AU from its starting point. Ships don't carry that much fuel, and combat arenas aren't that large; a typical star system is only 5-10 AU between jump points.

kfcroc18
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by kfcroc18 »

Is there a reason beams are the color they are, or is it just so we know who is shooting?

Bamax
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Bamax »

kfcroc18 wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:09 pm
Is there a reason beams are the color they are, or is it just so we know who is shooting?
LOL.

There is a point where you will reach where the author will not know....since not everything in a story has to have a reason behind it like IRL.

In story reason is as you said.


If I made up a reason such as the Umiak use green beams because they use a different chemical gas as their source of plasma and the Loroi use another would it have any effect on the story at all?

Not unless the author chooses to make it a plot point it won't.

That is a legitimate reason though.

A non-legitimate reason would be claiming that because Umiak plasma beams are more advanced they go higher on the ROYGBIV scale.

While it is true that light can be more energetic the further it goes up the rainbow color scale and beyond ultraviolet into the invisible X-ray and gamma range, it is also true that just because something is energetic does not mean it will be higher on the ROYGBIV color scale.


Colors of plasma is a complicated thing, since it is actually emiting multiple colors at once and the one you actually see is just one of them.

The sun in space is blazing white by the way.

You never really go wrong with some white in a plasma beam....but most know that.


Long story short....yes. It is for show.

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Arioch
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

kfcroc18 wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:09 pm
Is there a reason beams are the color they are, or is it just so we know who is shooting?
Yes, the reason is that it's so we know who is shooting.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by kfcroc18 »

Ok, granted it was a stupid question.

Where did the idea for what the Loroi and Umiak star ships look like come from?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

kfcroc18 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:59 am
Where did the idea for what the Loroi and Umiak star ships look like come from?
When I was playing Master of Orion II, I had developed my own internal idea of which of the colored icon sets belonged to which race (they were random and not coupled): the elf-like Elerians used the green set, the bug-like Klackons used the yellow set, and the humans used the red set. That's because I liked playing as the humans or the blue elf babes, and I thought the green icon set was the coolest (except for the red one, which looked like Star Trek ships).

red.png
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green.png
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When I started daydreaming about a MOO-like story, the coolest-looking green icons had a pronged theme which I used as the starting point for the ideas for what would become the Loroi ships. The yellow icons weren't quite buggy enough to use for the Umiak, and of course it wouldn't do to use the Star Trek-inspired red icons for the humans, so those designs went in a different direction. There are lots of influences here, but I do need to specifically mention the work of IgnusDei (who was then just a young-un) who did some volunteer design work on the Umiak ships, and helped me to zero in on what their designs should be like.

IgnusDei - UmiakWarstationcolor.jpg
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I had a couple of saved MOO2 games that I used as a kernel to develop the backstory of Outsider (in addition to cannibalizing the more hard-SF story I had previously working on but didn't know where to go with). In the more important one, the Loroi were using Neutron Blasters (magenta) and Graviton Beams (pale blue). I thought this made a good analogue for the particle and plasma beam weapons that I had in mind for the story. And it seemed to me that plasma could be blue-tinged or green-tinged depending on the faction.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by jterlecki »

Arioch wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:56 am
kfcroc18 wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:09 pm
Is there a reason beams are the color they are, or is it just so we know who is shooting?
Yes, the reason is that it's so we know who is shooting.
So, just out of curiosity - if you had a current human ship shoot beams - what colour would you pick ? Or you haven't really decided yet.

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