Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread

[icekatze]

hi hi

I can't even tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing. Everything has an opportunity cost. Gunboats, armor, screens, plasma canon, radiators, reactors, engines; everything. However, when it comes to armor, larger ships have better surface area to volume ratios, and have a desirable efficiency. Smaller ships have the benefit of being more expendable.

In my experience, the first rule of using computers is, "Save Often."

[Tamri]

What is the appearance of Barsam ships and "Prophet's Reason" in particular?

Would be in the comics Historians ships and how they look about?

[Arioch]

I'm still finalizing the design of the Prophet's Reason, but you'll see it soon.

[Jack]

hi hi

I can't even tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing. Everything has an opportunity cost. Gunboats, armor, screens, plasma canon, radiators, reactors, engines; everything. However, when it comes to armor, larger ships have better surface area to volume ratios, and have a desirable efficiency. Smaller ships have the benefit of being more expendable.

In my experience, the first rule of using computers is, "Save Often."

Hello!
Yes, you're right, everything has a cost.
Advantages gunboats:
No FTL drive.
No interstellar navigation system.
Short time of autonomous flight. Less inventory, easier life support systems. Less demand for self-repair.
With the support from the mothership does not need long-range sensors. The communication system of low power.
Protection from small spacecraft likely to be on the same principles that the aircraft: armor protects only critical units and systems.

A good rule. But parallelism is difficult to use it.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Gunboats still need an FTL drive, carried by the mothership, which in turn, lowers the mothership's own fighting potential.

A fleet is going to be using roughly the same interstellar navigation between them so that they all arrive in the same place, and has more to do with having accurate maps of the space between two systems than it is having massive systems on a combat ship.

Detecting things like spacecraft at long distances in space is not very difficult, even with today's technology. The hard part about sensors on a combat ship is hardening them against the kinds of extreme radiation that will be unleashed during combat. Every ship that wants to see where it is firing will need to have some advanced sensors that won't get burnt out.

The gunboat's short endurance is offset by the fact that the mothership has to carry extra in order to tow, repair, and support the crew on it. Delta V = Exhaust Velocity * natural logarithm (total mass / empty mass)

Protection on spacecraft at the tech level in the Outsider universe requires protecting everything, in order to avoid being defeated by near misses or unfocused attacks. An unfocused beam might not make a dent in legit armor plating, but a millimeter thick tin can construction style is vulnerable. The basic Umiak strategy with torpedoes and gunboats seems to be to distract the Loroi defenses while the heavy ships get close. It is to the Umiak's benefit to design gunboats that are able to force the Loroi defenders to use a full powered attack to destroy them

[Jack]

FTL drive the mother ship does not need to accelerate 30+ g gunboats.

The advantage of light destroyers with FTL drive - the ability to conduct autonomous mission? Then each of them has to have its own system of interstellar navigation.

On the state of the art electronic warfare makes the detection of cosmic purposes is extremely difficult. Look equipment of heavy intercontinental ballistic missile like "Satan": hundreds of light decoys per warhead, a dozen quasi-heavy decoys, shoots all the time flying bullets passive jamming, station setting group active jamming. Most stealth warheads. Selection of trajectories, difficult to detect and track separation stage and warheads.

Gunboat has the advantage of allowing you to quickly accelerate only a small piece of the weight of the mother ship. And only a small part of the same to substitute a dagger fire.
And at the same time on the "gunboat" can carry bullets, beans and bandages. And "consumers" of these products. Well, and other supplies, parts and passengers. What is required for ships permanently. And other vehicles have Umiak for these shipments, except for "gunboat", no.
Tsiolkovsky rocket equation I know, honestly.

A serious hit will not sustain any ship. My favorite creation from Arioch, umiak HXLR torpedo at full speed has the kinetic energy of a nuclear explosion in gigatons of TNT. Area substance evaporation in the explosion will be of such a size that the largest ship Loroi will look like a poor creature, "Bellarmine" after being hit.
Fly and fight like a fighter Loroi and gunboats Umiak even have screens, and were themselves larger than the same light interceptors.

[icekatze]

hi hi

FTL travel and sub-light travel are largely separate systems in the Outsider universe. Other than establishing the ship's real-space trajectory, the thrusters are not the same system that allows them to go faster than light. The mothership does need to have a bigger FTL drive than a ship of the same size without gunboats would.

Electronic warfare can blind sensors at close range for short periods of time, but it does not make cosmic detection difficult. Decoys don't work in deep space, because they don't accelerate with the same profile as the real target. Even in orbit, our current tech level on Earth can quickly detect and track every single rocket, stage, and piece of debris without difficulty. It may take some time to analyze what each object is when they are not accelerating, but the moment any piece of previously inert debris accelerates, it raises a very rapid response.

Launching gunboats does not protect the mothership from attack. You'll notice that the Umiak that launched the gunboats also charged at the Loroi lines. Unarmed supply vessels are prime targets for the faster Loroi raiders.

[Absalom]

hi hi

I can't even tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing. Everything has an opportunity cost. Gunboats, armor, screens, plasma canon, radiators, reactors, engines; everything. However, when it comes to armor, larger ships have better surface area to volume ratios, and have a desirable efficiency. Smaller ships have the benefit of being more expendable.

In my experience, the first rule of using computers is, "Save Often."

Hello!
Yes, you're right, everything has a cost.
Advantages gunboats:
No FTL drive.

No interstellar navigation system.

This will not require additional machinery, just the normal nav system + FTL engines. No savings.

Short time of autonomous flight. Less inventory, easier life support systems. Less demand for self-repair.

With the support from the mothership does not need long-range sensors. The communication system of low power.

Wrong. FTL sensors do not exist, so long-range sensors will either be survey equipment that combat ships wouldn't carry anyways, or would be necessary for in-system combat. No savings.

So, the advantages of gunships are the following:
No FTL engine, and
Less self-support == less duplicate equipment across the fleet.

FTL drive the mother ship does not need to accelerate 30+ g gunboats.

Something has to accelerate them though. No savings.

On the state of the art electronic warfare makes the detection of cosmic purposes is extremely difficult. Look equipment of heavy intercontinental ballistic missile like "Satan": hundreds of light decoys per warhead, a dozen quasi-heavy decoys, shoots all the time flying bullets passive jamming, station setting group active jamming. Most stealth warheads. Selection of trajectories, difficult to detect and track separation stage and warheads.

Gunboat has the advantage of allowing you to quickly accelerate only a small piece of the weight of the mother ship. And only a small part of the same to substitute a dagger fire.
And at the same time on the "gunboat" can carry bullets, beans and bandages. And "consumers" of these products. Well, and other supplies, parts and passengers. What is required for ships permanently. And other vehicles have Umiak for these shipments, except for "gunboat", no.
Tsiolkovsky rocket equation I know, honestly.

There's a saying on this forum: there is no stealth in space. Stealth technology focuses on hiding in the middle of something else, but space doesn't normally give you anything to hide in, so it just doesn't work.

[Krulle]

The tow ship having to have extra-sized engines also means extra-sized reactors to supply sufficient power to the engines.
The extra-sized reactors can surely be used in combat.

This may not be that expensive for the mothership anway, to be able to power all weapons the reactor might be there anyway.
We do not know how much larger an FTL-engine must be when the mass increases. So the extra-space and extra-weight requirements may be small for the towing ship.

Tactically, a jump-capable ship has more possibilities.
But depending on proved tactics and costs, the tow-implementation may be cost efficient.

[Arioch]

A jump drive consists of the jump field generator and a set of accumulators to store enough power to operate it. The power requirement scales with the mass of the ship, as does the size of the accumulators (and to a lesser extent the generator). There's no special "interstellar navigational system" that's required; you just have to follow the pre-established real-space velocity and location guidelines for a given jump link. There's a minimum amount of power required to break the surface tension of space-time, so there's a lower limit (for a given engine technology) on how small a starship can be. Given the engine technologies of the major combatants, you need to have enough power to push a 6 kt mass at about 30g to be able to fill a jump drive's accumulators (in a short enough time before they overheat and burn out) to make it work. So a minimal functional starship tends to be about 100m long; a minimal unmanned "jump torpedo" might be 80m long (though it's not clear what such a thing would be useful for). If you want to have weapons and supplies and decent crew accommodations for medium-duration missions, that size grows to 120-150m.

A mothership can tow vehicles into jump as long as it has enough power. For a dedicated 300m 125kt type-G tender carrying four 2.4 kt 75m light gunboats is about a 10% increase in jump mass. But vehicle mass increases with the cube of size, so a large 120m heavy gunboat weighs in at around 6 kt. For the same tender to carry two of these heavy gunboats is a 40% increase in jump mass. Towing a single 150m 17 kt light destroyer would be an 80% jump mass increase.

Dedicated tenders are armed and follow the rest of the fleet into combat, but they can't be as well-armed as pure combat cruisers; the more daughter craft it has to tow, the less well it can fight itself. Many ships with tow linkages aren't dedicated tenders, just regular warships with linkages and extra fuel storage, and can't really handle much extra jump mass. So there's a point past which the fact that the daughter crafts' engines are not contributing to the power required to jump the increasing mother-daughter total mass starts becoming a real problem.

As gunboats get up into the 120m range, you either need to have it towed by a larger, dedicated tender, or you need to give it its own jump drives so it can jump separately and use its own engines to relieve the increasing mass burden. Some of the larger Umiak gunboats do have their own jump drives, but still need to dock with a mothership to resupply and give its crews a break.

Once you get up into the 150m range, you're a full-fledged frigate and you really need to have your own jump drive. As we discussed some time ago regarding the feasibility of salvage vessels, it's one thing to carry small vehicles into jump with you, but when you're talking about another full-size starship the power requirements get pretty daunting.

[joestej]

Either way, since 25% of this thread is now nothing but our most recent argument, I'd say it's safe to move on to a new line of questioning...

It is quite obvious that Kikitik-27 is not a conventional Umiak commander, what with his habit of withdrawing rather than charging recklessly to his doom, etc. Even the Loroi have noticed. So my question is two-fold: how does Umiak Command view/deal with commanders like Kikitik who 'go against the grain', and is there a specific reason Kikitik is so different from other Umiak?

[Jack]

It is quite obvious that Kikitik-27 is not a conventional Umiak commander, what with his habit of withdrawing rather than charging recklessly to his doom, etc.

Somewhere there are comics on the world, where there are examples of "normal umiak" and a few fights?
When reading these statements appears confident that such comics there.

[joestej]

It is quite obvious that Kikitik-27 is not a conventional Umiak commander, what with his habit of withdrawing rather than charging recklessly to his doom, etc.

Somewhere there are comics on the world, where there are examples of "normal umiak" and a few fights?
When reading these statements appears confident that such comics there.

Actually my comments are based partially off Kikitik's description on the cast page, but mostly on Stillstorm's statement when she recognizes him.

Kikitik-27-tikhak-tikkukit is the the self-described designation (which is almost certainly a code name) of the commander of the Umiak forces opposing Stillstorm's raider group at Naam. Known to Loroi intelligence as "The Stray," Kikitik-27 is one of the few Umiak commanders known to have survived an attrition assault mission, and it has done so at least twice. In both cases Kikitik inflicted heavy losses on the Loroi defenders, and then withdrew its forces from combat (relatively intact) when Loroi reinforcements arrived.

I have faced this one before. I recognize its odd behavior. I have seen it withdraw from an unfavorable fight when the rest of its empty husks brainlessly came on until the last.

[Arioch]

It is quite obvious that Kikitik-27 is not a conventional Umiak commander, what with his habit of withdrawing rather than charging recklessly to his doom, etc. Even the Loroi have noticed. So my question is two-fold: how does Umiak Command view/deal with commanders like Kikitik who 'go against the grain', and is there a specific reason Kikitik is so different from other Umiak?

The Umiak actually dislike conformity and are actively encouraged to seek alternative solutions (within the confines of their orders), but the zeal and single-mindedness of most Umiak means that their behavior is often predictable. In particular, the attrition fleets that the Loroi see most often are crewed and led by Umiak in older vessels who have spent so long on bivouac duty that they can't contain their desire for close contact with the enemy. Umiak command is decentralized and is normally quite pleased to reward and promote clever and unconventional leaders; the problem in the Umiak style of attrition combat is to get them experience that doesn't kill them.

Kikitik-27 has caught the attention of the enemy not only for its obvious skill but because they have had the rare opportunity to see it in action more than once. Kikitik would have been a heavy captain and quincunx squadron commander during the battle of the Tasinei Ways (participating in the same action against then-Captain Stillstorm), subsequently promoted to division commander and eventually relegated to bivouac duty. After a decade of defense and patrol duty, Kikitik's division would have been inevitably flagged as declining in readiness and sent on an attrition assault. The division acquitted itself well, and returned with comparatively few losses. Then, a few years later, Kikitik appeared again leading another attrition assault. One can only imagine the internal political machinations that led to such a talented commander being spent more than once in such a manner, but like Stillstorm, Kikitik has been able to beat the odds. Whatever its previous political issues may have been, Kiktik-27 is now a high-ranking commander on an apparently important mission (that triple-size division with 10 superheavies is no suicide force).

[Jack]

Kikitik would have been a heavy captain and quincunx squadron commander... subsequently promoted to division commander and eventually relegated to bivouac duty... Kikitik's division... that triple-size division with 10 superheavies is no suicide force.

Where can I read the materials of the structure of the armed forces Umiak?

[joestej]

The Umiak actually dislike conformity and are actively encouraged to seek alternative solutions (within the confines of their orders), but the zeal and single-mindedness of most Umiak means that their behavior is often predictable. In particular, the attrition fleets that the Loroi see most often are crewed and led by Umiak in older vessels who have spent so long on bivouac duty that they can't contain their desire for close contact with the enemy. Umiak command is decentralized and is normally quite pleased to reward and promote clever and unconventional leaders; the problem in the Umiak style of attrition combat is to get them experience that doesn't kill them.

Kikitik-27 has caught the attention of the enemy not only for its obvious skill but because they have had the rare opportunity to see it in action more than once. Kikitik would have been a heavy captain and quincunx squadron commander during the battle of the Tasinei Ways (participating in the same action against then-Captain Stillstorm), subsequently promoted to division commander and eventually relegated to bivouac duty. After a decade of defense and patrol duty, Kikitik's division would have been inevitably flagged as declining in readiness and sent on an attrition assault. The division acquitted itself well, and returned with comparatively few losses. Then, a few years later, Kikitik appeared again leading another attrition assault. One can only imagine the internal political machinations that led to such a talented commander being spent more than once in such a manner, but like Stillstorm, Kikitik has been able to beat the odds. Whatever its previous political predicament may have been, Kiktik-27 is now a high-ranking commander on an apparently important mission (that triple-size division with 10 superheavies is no suicide force).

I guessed that someone upstairs must have a soft-spot for Kikitik (or he wouldn't have gotten all those superheavies), but it's good to know that the Umiak actively cultivate talent and encourage their commanders to think outside the box. I had initially assumed from their love of attrition tactics that they would be more dogmatic, so I'm pleased to be mistaken!

It's also quite amusing to note the similarities between Stillstorm and Kikitik: decorated veterans whose skills are acknowledged even by their enemies, have run into political problems but risen above them due to their abilities. Of course, I suspect Stillstorm would physically attack anyone who suggested she had anything in common with an Umiak. We'll have to see if Kikitik's prejudices run quite as deep.

Incidentally, have I mentioned how awesome it is that the Umiak AREN'T just generic bug monsters? If you overlook their xenophobia, aggression, and enslaving tendencies, the Bugs are actually kind of cuddly. What's not to like about rapping, OCD, transhuman (trans-Umiak?) perfectionists who use actual data stacks in their language and make suicide charges because they're just that enthusiastic?

...ahem.

On a less fan-gasmy note, I noticed a while back when I was reading through the old unfinished 2006 Outsider simulation rules that the Historians and their weapons aren't mentioned. Instead the PDF credits the advanced plasma weapons to a race called the "Eaters of Wisdom". Was this the original name for the Historians, and if so why did you decide to change it?

Where can I read the materials of the structure of the armed forces Umiak?

The official information on the structure of Umiak fleets may be found here, but for simplicity I'll just copy over the relevant paragraph for you:

Internal Umiak fleet organization is not well understood, but it is believed by Loroi intelligence that most command and control is decentralized and region-specific. The Umiak maintain very large defensive fleets all along the borders of their territory, and also conduct regular offensive strikes across all theatres; it is theorized that the offensive and defensive operations are under separate commands, though forces are frequently transferred between commands. Organization at the tactical level is based on the 5-vessel quincunx squadron, usually consisting of a cruiser and four smaller escorts. A typical Umiak "assault division" consists of 15-20 such squadrons, with additional perimeter escorts and an undetermined number of towed light craft. The "bivouac divisions" that form the border defense fleets can be much larger, and sometimes include more expensive superheavy units.

Umiak do not have ship "classes" in the conventional sense, as nearly every Umiak vessel is unique in some way, and so warships are mainly classified by size. Regional shipyards produce vessels in local styles influenced by the needs and available resources of the moment, and individual ships are extensively customized over their operational lives by their crews. However, most ships fall into one of several established "types" based on size, armament and role.

PS: Since I know someone is going to ask, the rules were never finished because they have some fundamental flaws regarding the way damage is resolved and Arioch has enough on his plate already. As of 2012 only the movement rules should be considered accurate to how things really work in the Outsider universe.

[joestej]

The information available is in the forums, and the Insider (a part of the site).

I would be very grateful for the links.

Insider: http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/insider.html

The Umiak: http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_umiak.html

Umiak Fleets and Ships: http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/fleet_umiak.html

Some background information that has already been sifted from the forums:
http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/f ... tions.html
http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/f ... ns_v2.html

Hope these are helpful for you.

[Arioch]

Unfortunately, search functions don't work very well with a translator.

On a less fan-gasmy note, I noticed a while back when I was reading through the old unfinished 2006 Outsider simulation rules that the Historians and their weapons aren't mentioned. Instead the PDF credits the advanced plasma weapons to a race called the "Eaters of Wisdom". Was this the original name for the Historians, and if so why did you decide to change it?

They were called the Eaters of Wisdom for a while. The "Historians" was a name for a different race in a different story. I eventually decided that each name was more appropriate for the other race and so I switched them.

[joestej]

Unfortunately, search functions don't work very well with a translator.

On a less fan-gasmy note, I noticed a while back when I was reading through the old unfinished 2006 Outsider simulation rules that the Historians and their weapons aren't mentioned. Instead the PDF credits the advanced plasma weapons to a race called the "Eaters of Wisdom". Was this the original name for the Historians, and if so why did you decide to change it?

They were called the Eaters of Wisdom for a while. The "Historians" was a name for a different race in a different story. I eventually decided that each name was more appropriate for the other race and so I switched them.

Interesting! Did that other story ever get published anywhere?

[Arioch]

They were called the Eaters of Wisdom for a while. The "Historians" was a name for a different race in a different story. I eventually decided that each name was more appropriate for the other race and so I switched them.

Interesting! Did that other story ever get published anywhere?

No, it's just one of many story ideas that I keep in my back pocket.

Agreed. Also, has that book project gotten published yet?

Which book do you mean?