Ehh your example proves my point, like it actually proves my point...
Japanese firearm development
Matchlocks were introduced, they kept using matchlocks until they started importing at the end of the Edo period far more advanced firearms from the western world.
With the following advances Japanese failed to make.
Cartridge, revolvers, rifling in both pistol and long guns, pointed bullet over ball for increased accuracy and range, and lastly but not least repeating rifles were becoming the next major upgrade.
While the Japanese technology was still smooth bore matchlocks.
So you want to claim that the Japanese understanding of ballistics and gunpowder was more advanced then the western world and they imported those advanced firearms because they just couldn't be bothered making them?
Your own example completely disproves your point and shows how a inflexible culture even when it adapts a weapon on mass fell far behind in the development and understanding of theory and physical application to improve that weapon.
Japanese implementation of firearms in warfare was more advanced then the western world intill the mid/late 1700s, but thats a completely different thing then understanding/improving the technology itself.
Japan=Loroi
Western world=Humanity
Point proven=100%
So I present to you Japanese development of the firearm(failure too) as my PROOF of my point.
Next.
Loroi didn't develop the basis for for the Pulse cannon or the wave loom, they created them based on Historian provided Plasma weapon technology they couldn't replicate and they are both the results of that failed application.
The Loroi don't even make their blasters they use on their ships, they have whats effectively a slave race that invented them still make them.
I have not seen anywhere where its implied Loroi investigate all avenues of research, you stated its implied but I have not read a single thing that would suggest that.
Can you actually provide something because It seems its your bias to want too assume, which is completely different from implied.
Technology advancement beyond theory requires application.
Humans in Outsider are advancing at a far faster rate in APPLIED TECHNOLOGY then the Loroi did, for you to claim that slower advancement in applied technology = greater understanding is completely illogical to me without providing proof from Insider.
I love the outsider universe and have read everything here
https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/insider.html I don't claim to have a perfect memory but I don't remember anything that would support what you claim.
Some quotes from insider on Loroi...
"As a warrior culture, Loroi society is heavily stratified, and its institutions and customs can be very rigid."
On caste system.
"As the name implies, the castes are mostly hereditary -- the daughter of a member of a warrior caste is normally expected to follow in her mother's footsteps. For the military castes, some movement is allowed, but it is very limited. A female child is formally assigned by her family to a caste at about age six; normally this is the same caste as her mother (see the article on Warrior Rites). Some of the warrior castes have very specific genetic or psionic traits as requirements, so often being qualified means being the child of a caste member, but it sometimes means that a qualified individual in a sought-after specialty might be admitted regardless of her heritage."
I could point out that being a researcher just because your mother was vs Humanity(in theory) rising the most qualified people into top spots of every field based on actual academic ability is likely to result in far better technology advancement and even basic understanding of theories involved.
Werra wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:09 pm
Mk_C wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:02 am
But technology is more than an extension of the universal laws of physics. An object existing is not sufficient for it to be understood.
I mean, yes, understanding is a function of an intelligent mind. The technology itself however is universal in what it does. A toaster will always be a machine that uses electricity to heat up and eject something put inside it. Therefore, it is possible to understand a given piece of technology fully, or perfectly. Your sophistry is missing the point, as your hypothetical scenarios do not show an impossibility of understanding, but the chance of some culture being too different to understand. Which does not disprove what you're arguing against at all.
Mk_C wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:19 am
But a field getting "exhausted" does not mean that we gain a perfect understanding of the subject - it only means that we come to realize how flawed were the questions that this field poised towards it's object, and that we need to figure out an entirely new approach for poising different questions on the same subject.
Now you're just making claims that do not follow from each other and are increasingly vague. I repeat, we have -literally- done science on certain subjects and found everything there is to know about it. That happened. Knowledge as a whole may be infinite, but it can be compartmentalized into solvable pieces. If I take you by your word, you're saying we need to "poise" different questions to the wheelbarrow and the knife and fork.
Mk_C wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:19 am
But the theoretical groundwork of fission has as much to do with understanding the peculiarities of a nuclear detonation as observing two rocks collide has to do with automotive vehicle safety. That's part of the reason for why we popped so many of the ugly things, and in such variance. Theory and practice walking hand in hand.
The theoretical groundwork of fission was done decades earlier and essentially understood without solving the engineering troubles of actually building a single nuclear device. So we can clearly separate the formulation of scientific theories and the implementation in real world applications. Which is just one example for how wartime slows down the rate of discovery for new basic principles and theories and increases the rate of implementation.
MK_C wrote:In war, there's simply more money available if you could make weapons out of the science.
In peace times, only thise theories get developed that allow for making money.
Some spare money aside for the theoretical acience, but not enough to develop it as fast as fully dedicated scientists could.
A nation under war stress does not put its efforts into scientific projects that might not even have practicable effects in the real world for decades or at all.
MBehave wrote:Its been stated that human culture allows us to advance far faster then other races due to open ideas.
Outsider Timeline
Humans independently went from planet bound to jump drives in ~120 years.
Loroi went from planet bound to exploring local space in 400 years and finding a jump drive.
Then took 100 more years to reverse engineer the jump drive technology and produce their own.
Humans have just independently developed blaster technology ~80 years after developing jump drives.
Loroi took it from the Delrias 450 years after inventingReverse engineering the Jump drive.
Technically this only proves that humans are advancing faster, not that they will advance further than the other species. But if you want me to go into more detail about my simple position, no problem.
The Loroi have made use of lasers for centuries and apparently managed to keep their laser technology up to date enough to win actual wars with it. They also have been in contact with other alien species, any number of which can make their own discoveries, which in turn should inspire the Loroi to improve. They have the Mizol caste for a reason, afterall. To say that a species with no experience with actual fighting with these weapons comes up with a new, basic technique that massively increases a lasers efficiency, is very optimistic. The longer lasers have been in use for the other species, the less likely a fundamental oversight becomes. We aren't talking about a timespan of decades or just the Loroi here. It's been centuries and all of the local bubble seemingly missed that trick.
MBehave wrote:
You keep claiming the Loroi develop their technical ability to a higher degree... can you provide any proof?
They apparently make the switch to new technology very late, only after many of the teething problems have been solved. At least that's what seems to be implied by how the Deinar world wars went. This seems to hint at a rather strong rigor in sounding out all aspects of a new technology. If you want a real world example how a very conservative, technologically practically frozen society can explore all options of the technology they have, take a look at Japanese guns. At the end of the Edo-period, their firearms were very sophisticated examples of the guns the Portugese brought them centuries earlier.
MBehave wrote:They are a violent militant stratified society that has trouble adapting and is currently losing.
In the current war the Loroi have not only developed and fielded entirely new weapons to match their opponents arms, they also took strong measures to change their economy which enabled them to keep the balance with their opponents numbers. In addition, the Loroi also shifted their doctrine as required by the catastrophies of this war, i.e. their use of light ships after they lost most heavy fleet assets in the Semoset campaign.
A violent, militant, stratified society is not inherently inflexible.