Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Arioch
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Cthulhu wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:That's exactly the problem. Without the shielding from the magnetic field the solar wind will blow off the ionosphere, then wreak havoc on the lower levels as well as on all life. The ionosphere cannot induce its own magnetic field to hold itself in place.
Except that Venus' ionosphere does exactly that. Venus has roughly similar size, mass, and distance from its primary to Perrein, and also has no magnetic field... yet it retains an atmosphere 90 times more dense than Earth's.

Titan also has no (known) magnetic field, and yet manages to retain an atmosphere more dense than Earth's.
That's what I'm talking about.

Venus has an atmosphere due to its sufficiently powerful gravitational force (unlike Mars), but because it has no magnetic field, this atmosphere consists mostly of CO2. Venus' ionosphere is, unlike Earths, not able to withstand the solar wind and all light gases are blown away. An induced magnetosphere is not powerful enough to contain it. By this point, only trace amounts of hydrogen and oxygen remain, but those can still be found in Venus' trail, which confirms the still ongoing erosion.
Since there is a massive worldwide forest that is continually producing oxygen, I don't see this as an absolute show-stopper. But my suggestion was that Perrein's ionosphere might have a composition such that it does a better job of forming an induced magnetosphere, and thus slowing the loss of water vapor and other volatiles. Contrary to your assertion, Venus is able to keep its ionosphere from being blown off without a magnetic field.
Cthulhu wrote:As how I understand it, the current Loroi social and political structure is rooted in the old warrior caste and clan structures. In ancient times it was necessary in order to maintain population control. It was the only way to maintain order and advance as a society. Or was it? Were or are there any other schools of thought on how Loroi civilization should be organized? How are such ideas received?
The Loroi have a shared martial pre-history, as reflected in their mythology, and so most Loroi social systems tend to have a martial flavor to them. Those that were less militaristic tended to get taken over by those that were more so. There were examples where physical isolation led to the survival of such systems. One would be the southern Amenal islands on Taben, who were less martial than their northern neighbors in Beleri. Like the vikings, Belerid Loroi would raid and sometimes conquer Amenal settlements, but often became subsumed within the "conquered" culture. Another would be Perrein, where terrain made distant city-states somewhat remote from one another, and allowed for greater diversity of cultures. Notably, some of the Perrein systems were based on religion, though the last of these was wiped out in Perrein's atomic wars. But the one feature that all (non-barbarian) systems needed to have in common was some kind of population control, and in ancient times the most effective way to accomplish this was with some kind of restricted alpha breeding system.

In the present, not all Loroi subcultures are as military-oriented as the Sister Worlds. Maia being a prime example of a society more developed around free markets, rather than the state-controlled mercantilism that militarists tend to prefer.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Arioch wrote:Since there is a massive worldwide forest that is continually producing oxygen, I don't see this as an absolute show-stopper. But my suggestion was that Perrein's ionosphere might have a composition such that it does a better job of forming an induced magnetosphere, and thus slowing the loss of water vapor and other volatiles. Contrary to your assertion, Venus is able to keep its ionosphere from being blown off without a magnetic field.
What I'm saying is that with sufficient gravity, the athmosphere itself may be retained, but the solar wind will blow any lighter gases out of it. For a planet in the habitable zone the solar radiation will be poweful enough to overwhelm any regenerative capabilities of an unshielded world. Granted, it may take millions of years, but without some kind of replentishment, the athmosphere will lose all of its water and oxygen. Even Earth is constantly losing some of its athmosphere, but that amount is kept small by the magnetic field and gravity. Additionally, volcanic activity replentishes lost gases in form of (among other things) CO2 and water, while the ecosystem converts that CO2 into O2 and biomass. A planet without a molten core would have no magnetic field but also (almost) no volcanic activity. Thus it will lose gases at an increased speed while not being able to replentish them. An ancient world like Perrein may have more "reserves" bound somewhere, but it's still fighting a very drawn-out, losing battle.
Arioch wrote:The Loroi have a shared martial pre-history, as reflected in their mythology, and so most Loroi social systems tend to have a martial flavor to them. Those that were less militaristic tended to get taken over by those that were more so. There were examples where physical isolation led to the survival of such systems. One would be the southern Amenal islands on Taben, who were less martial than their northern neighbors in Beleri. Like the vikings, Belerid Loroi would raid and sometimes conquer Amenal settlements, but often became subsumed within the "conquered" culture. Another would be Perrein, where terrain made distant city-states somewhat remote from one another, and allowed for greater diversity of cultures. Notably, some of the Perrein systems were based on religion, though the last of these was wiped out in Perrein's atomic wars. But the one feature that all (non-barbarian) systems needed to have in common was some kind of population control, and in ancient times the most effective way to accomplish this was with some kind of restricted alpha breeding system.

In the present, not all Loroi subcultures are as military-oriented as the Sister Worlds. Maia being a prime example of a society more developed around free markets, rather than the state-controlled mercantilism that militarists tend to prefer.
But the male restrictions are still enforced through said militaristic system, even more so in wartime. The civilians must be a little upset, I guess. This is somewhat mitigated by their long lifespan, but its still very important. Whoever controls the means of (re)production controls society, right? Does this degrade the differences to mere flavours of the same core system or are they more diverse (at least in peace-time)? Also are there any ancient legends on how the pre-fall Loroi society worked?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Cthulhu wrote:A planet without a molten core would have no magnetic field but also (almost) no volcanic activity. Thus it will lose gases at an increased speed while not being able to replentish them. An ancient world like Perrein may have more "reserves" bound somewhere, but it's still fighting a very drawn-out, losing battle.
It's always a losing battle... the amount of water in any planet is finite, whether the reserves are brought to the surface by vulcanism or some other process. It's just a question of reserves vs. rate of loss. All planets are dying planets... all main sequence stars get brighter as they age, moving the habitable zone farther and farther out and making its planets less and less habitable... before it eventually runs out of fuel and destroys the system outright. We simply have to propose a set of starting values for the system that don't run out within the meaningful life of the planet's ecosystem. And since this is fiction, we have a significant amount of discretion there.
Cthulhu wrote:But the male restrictions are still enforced through said militaristic system, even more so in wartime. The civilians must be a little upset, I guess. This is somewhat mitigated by their long lifespan, but its still very important. Whoever controls the means of (re)production controls society, right? Does this degrade the differences to mere flavours of the same core system or are they more diverse (at least in peace-time)?
Actually the population restrictions are eased in wartime (since losses need to be replaced), and they are less restrictive on growing planets like Maia than on better established systems like Deinar, but the restrictions would need to be enforced regardless of whether the government was military or civilian. With high technology, contraceptives might be used as part of the solution, but there still aren't enough males to go around, and Loroi females have the compulsion to get pregnant, not just to have sex, so there is still going to have to be some kind of control system over who gets to have access to males and when.
Cthulhu wrote:Also are there any ancient legends on how the pre-fall Loroi society worked?
The heroic myths are a slightly unreliable source, partially because they were filtered through primitive post-fall cultures that interpreted some of the references to technology as supernatural, and because there's no way to know what parts of the mythology didn't survive to the present day simply because they stopped being retold. For example, there is no mention of civilians at all in pre-fall myth; scholars aren't sure whether this is because the work was being done by someone (or something) else, or whether stories involving civilians just stopped being retold by ancient scholars who wanted to emphasize the warrior mythos. Similarly, the pre-fall stories are always about heroes and generals, but never about monarchs or rulers. There are vague references to orders coming from a ruler, but not much information about who that ruler was.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Guess it could make sense... red dwarfs (dwarves?) are crazy flary during the first billions of years of existence but calm down in their mid and later years (so after about 10-12 billion years on average). A planet that has survived past the baby phase of the star (via a magnetic field), will find itself in extremely mild, long-lived conditions, which might not require a field any longer. The mostly infrared light doesn't pack a mighty punch unless there's a flare, and the winds die down quite a bit.
Given the evolution of life on earth, it's not unreasonable to assume trees and plants would gobble up most of what was on the surface. They've done this before (the Azolla event, the Carboniferous, etc). That would mean that for non-tree life, i'd be pretty slim pickings, basically waiting for a super-tree to die, before a temporary food cycle starts. Like one would find on the ocean seafloor: https://nautiluslive.org/video/2019/10/ ... n-seamount

Venus DOES lose atmosphere. It's just that most of what was lost was lost long ago, and what remains is very heavy and chemically stable stuff (CO2, which is reasonably dense, and where the carbon has a deathgrip on the oxygen; similarly N2), so the usual mechanism of sputtering works poorly. There's too much of this remnant massive atmosphere for the solar wind to make an appreciable dent. Well, that is, until the red giant phase commences...
Arioch wrote:Notably, some of the Perrein systems were based on religion, though the last of these was wiped out in Perrein's atomic wars.
I take it they too have paved themselves a couple of times in the past...
Arioch wrote:There are vague references to orders coming from a ruler, but not much information about who that ruler was.
Oblivion theme intensifies....

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

Mr.Tucker wrote:Guess it could make sense... red dwarfs (dwarves?) are crazy flary during the first billions of years of existence but calm down in their mid and later years (so after about 10-12 billion years on average). A planet that has survived past the baby phase of the star (via a magnetic field), will find itself in extremely mild, long-lived conditions, which might not require a field any longer. The mostly infrared light doesn't pack a mighty punch unless there's a flare, and the winds die down quite a bit.
Given the evolution of life on earth, it's not unreasonable to assume trees and plants would gobble up most of what was on the surface. They've done this before (the Azolla event, the Carboniferous, etc). That would mean that for non-tree life, i'd be pretty slim pickings, basically waiting for a super-tree to die, before a temporary food cycle starts. Like one would find on the ocean seafloor: https://nautiluslive.org/video/2019/10/ ... n-seamount

Venus DOES lose atmosphere. It's just that most of what was lost was lost long ago, and what remains is very heavy and chemically stable stuff (CO2, which is reasonably dense, and where the carbon has a deathgrip on the oxygen; similarly N2), so the usual mechanism of sputtering works poorly. There's too much of this remnant massive atmosphere for the solar wind to make an appreciable dent. Well, that is, until the red giant phase commences...
Arioch wrote:Notably, some of the Perrein systems were based on religion, though the last of these was wiped out in Perrein's atomic wars.
I take it they too have paved themselves a couple of times in the past...
Arioch wrote:There are vague references to orders coming from a ruler, but not much information about who that ruler was.
Oblivion theme intensifies....
Red dwarfs have ridiculously long lifespans but the zone around them capable of supporting life are so close to the star that those flares are going to regularly sterilize away anything trying to evolve there. K-class stars however are at a sweet spot. Thease stars are inbetween G-class stars as our own and the red dwarfs and also have extremely long lifespans thou shorter then those of the red dwarfs. They are a lot calmer flare wise thou.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Arioch, are scale trees on Perrein similar to the ones on prehistoric earth?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidodendron

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Mr.Tucker wrote:Arioch, are scale trees on Perrein similar to the ones on prehistoric earth?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidodendron
Sort of... Carboniferous Earth is kind of a conceptual model for Perrein's ecology... vast forested wetlands, high oxygen atmosphere, flora and fauna both run amuck... except highly evolved instead of relatively primitive. So the trees do have this singature "scale" pattern, to increase structural strength and reduce weight, except they're an order of magnitude larger... and fairly sophisticated in terms of their life processes.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

Is the lift on loroi ships a simple platform in order for the lift shaft to be easily traversible in the case of power outage and loss of life support, or is it purely aesthetic? (Ie, you don't have to worry about a big box being in the way, just whoosh down a zero-grav tube?)

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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boldilocks wrote:Is the lift on loroi ships a simple platform in order for the lift shaft to be easily traversible in the case of power outage and loss of life support, or is it purely aesthetic? (Ie, you don't have to worry about a big box being in the way, just whoosh down a zero-grav tube?)
I don't think it would be a simple matter to exercise that fine a degree of control over which parts of the ship are affected by artificial gravity and which ones aren't, but regardless I'm not sure how you "whoosh" up or down a zero-gravity shaft... unless you are equipped with some sort of personal reaction control jets. Especially if you are transporting some sort of cargo.

Looking back on the elevator shaft design, I think what's missing are ladder rungs so that it can be more easily traversed with the power out. I think most of the interior designs could use a lot more guard rails and hand-holds.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

Arioch wrote:
boldilocks wrote:Is the lift on loroi ships a simple platform in order for the lift shaft to be easily traversible in the case of power outage and loss of life support, or is it purely aesthetic? (Ie, you don't have to worry about a big box being in the way, just whoosh down a zero-grav tube?)
I don't think it would be a simple matter to exercise that fine a degree of control over which parts of the ship are affected by artificial gravity and which ones aren't, but regardless I'm not sure how you "whoosh" up or down a zero-gravity shaft... unless you are equipped with some sort of personal reaction control jets. Especially if you are transporting some sort of cargo.

Looking back on the elevator shaft design, I think what's missing are ladder rungs so that it can be more easily traversed with the power out. I think most of the interior designs could use a lot more guard rails and hand-holds.
I meant whoosh as in "Oh, gravity's out, I guess I'll just push off from this end to get 10-15 floors towards the other end. Of course, that'll probably lead to an unfortunate amount of injuries.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

I'm sure there are a variety of alternate passageways to get from deck to deck that do not require power, and that don't require zero-G acrobatics. This is not the type of starship where you can trap people on the bridge just by cutting off the power. :D

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Hālian »

Arioch wrote:
orion1836 wrote:If I were to make a guess, they would likely use our existing taxonomy structure with a single Latin word added to the front to denote planetary ecosystem of origin (and we would retroactively gain one for every lifeform on Earth).
There would need to be a new classification category for the world of origin, to be sure.
I'd be tempted to suggest “empire” if it weren't already a lesser-used synonym for “domain”. So probably just “planet” or similar.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Arioch wrote:I'm sure there are a variety of alternate passageways to get from deck to deck that do not require power, and that don't require zero-G acrobatics. This is not the type of starship where you can trap people on the bridge just by cutting off the power. :D
Jefferies tube acrobatics on the other hand... ;)

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by orion1836 »

Something occurs to me: "He She who smelt it, dealt it," would never be a thing among Loroi. They would always know who dealt it.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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orion1836 wrote:Something occurs to me: "He She who smelt it, dealt it," would never be a thing among Loroi. They would always know who dealt it.
That's what the Mizol wants you to believe! :lol:
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by SVlad »

There was map of Seren Theater, but it is gone.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/i ... r_map2.gif

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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SVlad wrote:There was map of Seren Theater, but it is gone.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/i ... r_map2.gif
Do you need it for something? I had it downloaded ages ago.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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GeoModder wrote:Do you need it for something? I had it downloaded ages ago.
Yes, it was linked here in translation.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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I suggest you download the picture at your end from the Flickr page and confirm you've done so. I will delete the picture from my page there then.

edit: removed link
Last edited by GeoModder on Fri May 22, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Done, thanks.

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