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[Krulle]

Well, seeing how the Umiak work, I don't think their hegemonial space would provided positives where the Loroi Union has negatives.
I actually think that any alternative-Alex in Umiak hands would find reasons stacking against tehe Umiak about as fast, likely even faster.

If you overtax your economy, sometime it WILL break down.
We simply don't know how close they are to that point, nor if they are struggling with rebelious "client states", or if their internal hierarchy is prone to coups, and therefore inherently instable.

Ant hives only work well, because the workers and guards are DUMB.
Yes, they work relentlessly for the greater good of the hive, but all on instinct.
And also only because they're all siblings/clones of each other.
They cannot come up with innovative ways to improve life within the hive.
Therefore they are a very stagnant society.

Furthermore, often ant hives are fiercly competitive, constantly verging war with each other, over food sources, best shelters, ....

And with the Umiak it also seems like they're able to adapt technology, and even make improvements to the technology they adapted to their use, but so far I've seen no indication in the insider that they're able to really innovate technology themselves.
Which is also an indication for a stagnant society.
Sooner or later they will hit road-blocks.
But due to sheer numbers, they might be able to hold on to power in their sector for quite a long while, which will also mean suppressing technology to prevent others from winning the tech-race...

[edit: spoilered due to mere speculation, imposing perceived Earth-norms on Aliens, which may result in completely false assumptions regarding the Aliens]

SpoilerShow

It may well be that they have several "queens", and hives, with fierce internal competition, and the queens being smart enough to innovate (but occupied defending their standing within the society, backstabbing other queens). And the queens compete with each other for central power, and some of them building their power base by attacking neighbouring states to use their economic power to improve the standing towards the central power.
If such is the case, then the umiak might get serious troubles if a hive along the border breaks down...

But this is all speculation, and may comprise a severe, and dangerous, case of antropomorphisation.

[volrath77]

Yeaaa...there's definitely something fishy here and it's too early to tell which of the two is lying. I think that it's just as likely that the Historian is manipulating Alex, just as its race had and probably is still manipulating both sides of the war for their own motive/benefits.

[novius]

Yeaaa...there's definitely something fishy here and it's too early to tell which of the two is lying. I think that it's just as likely that the Historian is manipulating Alex, just as its race had and probably is still manipulating both sides of the war for their own motive/benefits.

And this is one of the moments Cpt. Hamilton alluded to before the launch of the Bellarmine - where Alex has to make a snap decision on whether he places his trust into the words of the construct, or in the Loroi, or maybe just in that specific Loroi right in front of him.

[bunnyboy]

Looks like Historians want to Alex being dumb and ignorant and not friends with Loroi.

Perfect for being captured and brainwashed by group, who might think that would end the war by offering the loroi for the umiak into goldplate as peace offering.
Or keep the war going on for their own businesses.

Though other hand, the Loroi are psychic and we got only their word of not being able to read/detect our minds.
Now think what if they are able to alter our perceptions of themselves. Something familiar but still distinctively different.
Then play good cop & bad cop while having the prisoner contained but constantly changing the conditions of the "game".

Kind of like Maze runner or The Signal.

Then some overextended paranoia would be preferred.

[novius]

Though other hand, the Loroi are psychic and we got only their word of not being able to read/detect our minds.
Now think what if they are able to alter our perceptions of themselves. Something familiar but still distinctively different.
Then play good cop & bad cop while having the prisoner contained but constantly changing the conditions of the "game".

If you go that route, it could go on for quite some time, the situation getting even more and more worse, until Alex sees himself being blown up in the shuttle or whereever he is...

... only to find himself on an examination table with Fireblade pulling her hand away from him, and realizing that everything that happened since he thought to have been brought onboard the Tempest had been a giant mindfck. After all, seeing Fireblade in that telepathy experiment (inside the mindrape) could have already been an indication that there's more at play.

[bunnyboy]

Now about "What do you have there?"

This could be test of trust or something else, like "you have this stash of junk, let see what you do with it."
Or genuine curiousness, like "I was expecting you to dress up, but instead you have found something interesting"

So, I would answer that this is personal data storing device used for learning and entertaining as well keeping memories.

Now if the loroi wants to take it away, it clearly tells that they have something to hide, but you could insist that you need it to write things up unless the loroi have enough matresses, so he wouldnt accidently break some taboo he has forgotten. Also, I suspect that losing pad wouldnt hindrance much of Historians, though it does take away his ability to learn from them before he get "released".

But if you can keep it, then you can "write your diary" anytime and place where you want. Though the loroi would be likely interested what you write on it.

If you lie it being junk, then you must lie again everytime you want to use it and it is also considered of being unnecessary for you. Good luck on trying to check it again.

[bunnyboy]

If you go that route...

... only to find himself on an examination table with Fireblade pulling her hand away from him

I didn't even thought of that!
My thought of mindfuck was that we dont see the world how it exactly is and either the signal from eyes to brain could be intercepted, or either how our brains reconstruct the image from the noisy signal by using "autofilling" with familiar shapes. Just as we see happy face on electric outlet loroi might use it makes themselves more presentable. Remember that there was race, who see loroi as their god just being near them.

[SVlad]

If you go that route, it could go on for quite some time, the situation getting even more and more worse, until Alex sees himself being blown up in the shuttle or whereever he is...

... only to find himself on an examination table with Fireblade pulling her hand away from him, and realizing that everything that happened since he thought to have been brought onboard the Tempest had been a giant mindfck. After all, seeing Fireblade in that telepathy experiment (inside the mindrape) could have already been an indication that there's more at play.

Or even worth - wake up in Umiak lab to understand that all blue space elf girls was just an artifact illusion created to earn his trust. Because it is much easier for man to contact with pretty female that with a giant bug.

Then again race obtaining such a powerful technology probably wouldn't need such difficult interrogation at all - they could just scan your mind and know all they want.

[novius]

Now about "What do you have there?"

This could be test of trust or something else, like "you have this stash of junk, let see what you do with it."
Or genuine curiousness, like "I was expecting you to dress up, but instead you have found something interesting"

We've already seen Beryl reacting poorly when she thinks she's been left out of the loop. Major example had been when she caught him shaking hands with Talon... her first question was whether humans indeed have a ritual involving touching hands or not. And she sounded pretty much put out that she wasn't the first one to learn about that tidbit.

[raistlin34]

Alex: "Ok I cannot lie to you. I...was looking for porn."
Beryl: "...so, you need some accommodations after all. (grin)"

[sunphoenix]

Alex: "Ok I cannot lie to you. I...was looking for porn."
Beryl: "...so, you need some accommodations after all. (grin)"

I'm sooo there!

[boldilocks]

"Oh, I was just updating my Sonic slash-fic. Would you like t-"
*Door closes*
*Air-lock opens*

[icekatze]

hi hi

Given the broader history we know of out-of-comic, and the difference between the way the historian treats Alex here and how it treated the Loroi on the bridge, this strikes me as much more likely an attempt to sabotage relations between humanity and the Loroi than any earnest attempt to protect Alex.

The more I think about it, the more I find myself leaning toward this conclusion. Sure Alex was not treated well by the Loroi, but he's also supposed to be very smart, so I expect that he'll catch something that I missed in this equation.

• They were already doing nothing before the Historian Construct contacted Alex.
• Did the construct need to access the PAD in order to get their position? I don't see how accessing the PAD could augment that action more than the canister.
• What detrimental actions could the Loroi take to this plan that aren't suicidal? They can't go anywhere, they can't send for help through their own means.

I can see a lot of reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of creating distrust, but I can't see many reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of rescuing him.

Also, his mission is to establish contact for the purpose of good relations. The mission planners back in the TCA knew that they would likely not get a favorable deal, and that may come before any one crew member's personal safety.

[cacambo43]

hi hi

Given the broader history we know of out-of-comic, and the difference between the way the historian treats Alex here and how it treated the Loroi on the bridge, this strikes me as much more likely an attempt to sabotage relations between humanity and the Loroi than any earnest attempt to protect Alex.

The more I think about it, the more I find myself leaning toward this conclusion. Sure Alex was not treated well by the Loroi, but he's also supposed to be very smart, so I expect that he'll catch something that I missed in this equation.

• They were already doing nothing before the Historian Construct contacted Alex.
• Did the construct need to access the PAD in order to get their position? I don't see how accessing the PAD could augment that action more than the canister.
• What detrimental actions could the Loroi take to this plan that aren't suicidal? They can't go anywhere, they can't send for help through their own means.

I can see a lot of reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of creating distrust, but I can't see many reasons why contacting Alex would further the goal of rescuing him.

Also, his mission is to establish contact for the purpose of good relations. The mission planners back in the TCA knew that they would likely not get a favorable deal, and that may come before any one crew member's personal safety.

I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information. Or they might really be concerned about him. I know, perhaps not, but other than reasons like that, I don't see why they needed to contact him either. And what would have happened if either the Loroi didn't leave/have the PAD or Alex never touched it?

CJSF

[boldilocks]

I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information. Or they might really be concerned about him. I know, perhaps not, but other than reasons like that, I don't see why they needed to contact him either. And what would have happened if either the Loroi didn't leave/have the PAD or Alex never touched it?

CJSF

Maybe humanity was created by the Historians in order to create an "immune" species that could be used against the Loroi, once it was ready.

[Sweforce]

He can just say that he was looking for information about attack on bellarmine.

And he could be truthful about it since it is entirely possible that he intended to do that before the construct contacted him. It is possible that there is a copy of a sensor log in there, perhaps down to an actual picture of the alien vessel.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information.

I'm not sure what information the Historian construct thinks that Alex has, that he hasn't already divulged. If that is true though, Alex is in an even worse spot, since he already agreed to a fair exchange of information, and suddenly going quiet would likely be detrimental to his personal safety.

Although I don't think it is very likely, given the insider knowledge that I have, I think that if I was in Alex's shoes I'd be worried a little bit that this is some kind of test to see if they can trust him. Not a position I'd want to be in, that's for sure.

[DevilDalek]

I'd say what the historians are doing is all calculated to keep Alex on edge and untrusting, they are beginning to set up control flags in him.. It will only take a few 'I told you so' to (in their mind) tip Alex towards trusting them.
I think it's highly likely Alex has gone through some form of counter capture training and he might spot what they are doing. After all, they are telling him to do some pretty strong things without actually giving him a reason.
A few questions I would be asking myself though.. The Barsam are religious pacafists but have a very close relationship with the Historians., how deeply entwined are their little holo fingers in the Barsams religion and how much of a little push would it take for the historians to turn pasifists into zealots.
Also considering how deeply they have been in the Bellermine computers., one of their trump cards could be..
"Nice civilisation.. Shame if something happened to it if the Umiak knew where it was."

[Krulle]

I agree, generally, with this; however, one plausible reason for contacting him might be that for whatever plans the Historians have, they really want to make sure Alex doesn't jeopardize his safety or give away any more information. Or they might really be concerned about him. I know, perhaps not, but other than reasons like that, I don't see why they needed to contact him either. And what would have happened if either the Loroi didn't leave/have the PAD or Alex never touched it?

CJSF

Maybe humanity was created by the Historians in order to create an "immune" species that could be used against the Loroi, once it was ready.

What if the Humanity is the left-over of the Soia? Evolved on the same planet, after the Dinosaurs (who are the Soia) left Earth, strip-mined most neighbouring systems (thus creating the "Empty Quarter), then went on to leave Earth alone so that it can birth another sentient species.... (wild idea, but I've been toying with it for a while now)

[CrimsonFALKE]

Beryl can't read English, exactly -- at least not yet. She knows those letters that Alex wrote down the Trade equivalents for, and she's clever enough to recognize some words she's heard aloud (such as "Bellarmine" and "Jardin") and to sound out words for which she knows the letters, but she has no way yet of knowing what they mean. But it's true that she can remember what she sees, and may be able to put things together later.

Yeah that is not very comforting given how quickly she was able to understand human time calculations via chemistry I think text messaging English won't be a challenge.