Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

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Werra
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Werra »

@volrath77
Fireblade is "leaking" in her sleep. She can't keep it all in like the other grown-ups. That makes her a shunned bed neighbour in the dormitories on Tempest.
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It's her PTSD dreams.

Didn't Beryl mention that technicians went over whatever gadgets Alex got from her? Then there shouldn't be any danger to the shuttle and she seems to trust Alex enough to give him some tools.
Doesn't she have charitable and trusting as a drawback in Gurps? Looks like Miss Tempo has to spank a Tozet.

@Zorg56
I think that's lense flare.

How was Fireblade burned into Alex mind the first time he saw her already? That's what I don't get about that theory.

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Zorg56
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Zorg56 »

Yeah, forgot about this one.
Using her power passively when he was asleep?
We dont know what happened when they took him aboard the ship, they may even try to break him right after.

volrath77
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by volrath77 »

Werra wrote:@volrath77
Fireblade is "leaking" in her sleep. She can't keep it all in like the other grown-ups. That makes her a shunned bed neighbour in the dormitories on Tempest.
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It's her PTSD dreams.
Ah ok. I thought you were trying to go for 'innocence' or something else.

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Arioch
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Arioch »

Werra wrote:
Zorg56 wrote:P.s. Noticed only now... How the hell Bellarmine get in there without anyone noticing? This place should be swarming with Umiak patrols and Loroi raid groups. Or this grey lines just old trade routes and there is way more jump possibilities? But even if there is dozens of systems not mapped here, it is still really strange. Espicially with Bellarmine acceleration.
That's what I have also been wondering. Either the frontlines must be calm for weeks between assaults, or Bellarmine just got very unlucky.
The map on page 59 is a two-dimensional overview of the Steppes; it doesn't show all the stars or the plane on which the Bellarmine arrived, and the lines represent routes rather than individual star jump links. The more detailed starmaps on pages 118-121 show different viewing angles of the same region, and do show all the stars and individual jump links. The view on page 118 in particular explicitly shows the Bellarmine's route to Naam in yellow. Human space is coreward and to the galactic North (higher on the z-axis) from the Steppes, and so the route came "down" from above, referring to the orientation of the p.59 map. It did not pass through either Loroi or Umiak territory along the way.

The Burning Steppes (the gap between Loroi and Umiak territory) is a no-man's land; neither side keeps bases here and there is not much in the way of patrol activity. The Loroi mostly depend on Farseers to keep tabs on enemy movement in the Steppes, and any Umiak patrols that enter the Steppes are likely to be attacked by Loroi raiders, so any Umiak reconnaissance must be in force. And neither side is expecting enemy forces to arrive from the galactic North direction.
Werra wrote:We don't know that. That's my point. We interpret her behaviour and signals by our experiences with human women.
For example, you could alternately interpret Beryl's apparent "sexual interest" as scientific curiosity, and her apparent "jealousy" or "possessiveness" as motherly protectiveness of an alien subject who she is responsible for.

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Werra
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Werra »

Arioch wrote:neither side keeps bases here and there is not much in the way of patrol activity. The Loroi mostly depend on Farseers to keep tabs on enemy movement in the Steppes, and any Umiak patrols that enter the Steppes are likely to be attacked by Loroi raiders, so any Umiak reconnaissance must be in force. And neither side is expecting enemy forces to arrive from the galactic North direction.
So, uh...how are the Umiak even able to fight this war blind? Kikitik seems famous for having survived an assault twice. So there can't be that many ships getting back to Umiak space.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by dragoongfa »

With single minded determination, unparalleled focus on their goal and an inability to back down that borders on insanity. The Umiak are mass warfare specialists, they are rarely subtle and cunning but they are certainly able to keep throwing ships and bodies at their enemies.

The saying goes like this: Throw enough shit at the wall and some of it will stick.

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Werra
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Werra »

We'll see when we learn more about the Umiak nation. But they started the war prepared and with a massive, succesful surprise invasion.
Yet despite that and all the ships and torpedoes they field, the war's been a draw. So they can't be that much more powerful than the Loroi, in which situation their waste of ships becomes very dangerous.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Werra wrote:We'll see when we learn more about the Umiak nation. But they started the war prepared and with a massive, succesful surprise invasion.
Yet despite that and all the ships and torpedoes they field, the war's been a draw. So they can't be that much more powerful than the Loroi, in which situation their waste of ships becomes very dangerous.
You be underestimating the Loroi here. Given that FTL is extremely limited in this setting, the ability to sense enemy movements is an almost broken characteristic. To top it off, Loroi are good at warfare (both in space, having fought several violent conflicts) and on the ground (due to their unique, uncounterable and impossible to imitate psychic powers). The fact that the Loroi are still in the conflict, despite being, by all accounts, heavily outnumbered and outgunned (remember, the Umiak started off with plasma technology, while the Loroi were still using particle beams and lasers) should point to their talents at warfare.
The fact that the UMIAK haven't been squashed is also a testament to their almost irrational ability for self-sacrifice.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by boldilocks »

dragoongfa wrote:With single minded determination, unparalleled focus on their goal and an inability to back down that borders on insanity. The Umiak are mass warfare specialists, they are rarely subtle and cunning but they are certainly able to keep throwing ships and bodies at their enemies.

The saying goes like this: Throw enough shit at the wall and some of it will stick.
Throw wave after wave of your own men at the enemy, and...
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Werra
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Werra »

Mr.Tucker wrote: You be underestimating the Loroi here. Given that FTL is extremely limited in this setting, the ability to sense enemy movements is an almost broken characteristic. To top it off, Loroi are good at warfare (both in space, having fought several violent conflicts) and on the ground (due to their unique, uncounterable and impossible to imitate psychic powers). The fact that the Loroi are still in the conflict, despite being, by all accounts, heavily outnumbered and outgunned (remember, the Umiak started off with plasma technology, while the Loroi were still using particle beams and lasers) should point to their talents at warfare.
The fact that the UMIAK haven't been squashed is also a testament to their almost irrational ability for self-sacrifice.
Fully agree with you. The Umiak are a fearsome enemy, to be sure. There isn't any other species in the setting that could take them on. This war decides who becomes master of Orion.
Both species are extremely good at warfare, but Loroi have advantages that force the Umiak to make horrible decisions in my opinion. Currently my money is on the Loroi to win.

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Zorg56
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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Zorg56 »

With their industrial capacity, Umiak probably can just throw at loroi something like this, and it will be, pretty much, over.
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Dosent even need to engage Loroi directly, hold defensive formation around it when it blasts enemy ships and, probably, planets across the system.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by dragoongfa »

If the Umiak had the energy source capable to power that thing and make it jump then they would have already won.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

The Loroi war effort relies so heavily on farseers that Clicky-27's boasting about how the Loroi are doomed, now that their big advantage is gone, is not without merit. Unless someone (possibly Alex) comes up with a brilliant plan, I don't see the Loroi winning this war. Certainly, if they try to keep doing what they've been doing, they're going to be in big trouble.

Edit: Also, after taking some time to look, I think the writing on the wall cylinders says, timon, which translates into pressure, although it is hard to make out some of the letters.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Arioch »

Ultra-massive megaships are not very effective when kinetic weapons do so much damage (and are screen-piercing and so must be dodged) or when your opponent has weapons like the Wave-Loom. The Umiak have a few ultraheavy ships like the TTK, but they are very careful in how they use them, because those are expensive items to lose, even for the Umiak.

Consider that the history of battleship warfare on Earth was a perpetual game of chicken, with opposing commanders afraid to commit their expensive big ships to battle for fear of losing them.

Even in it's own milieu, these mega star destroyers are silly. Let's not forget that the Executor was taken out by a single A-wing.
Werra wrote:
Arioch wrote:neither side keeps bases here and there is not much in the way of patrol activity. The Loroi mostly depend on Farseers to keep tabs on enemy movement in the Steppes, and any Umiak patrols that enter the Steppes are likely to be attacked by Loroi raiders, so any Umiak reconnaissance must be in force. And neither side is expecting enemy forces to arrive from the galactic North direction.
So, uh...how are the Umiak even able to fight this war blind? Kikitik seems famous for having survived an assault twice. So there can't be that many ships getting back to Umiak space.
1. Their border defenses have to be extensive and multi-layered. The vast majority of Umiak fleets sit on defense.
2. Defense through offense. If you constantly pressure the enemy by making them defend their own territory, that makes it difficult for them to attack your territory. Since these are largely suicide attacks, the Umiak use older ships (and crews) that have been rotting on defense for 10+ years to the point where their readiness is starting to suffer.

This is only possible if you can substantially out-produce and outnumber the enemy. Loroi intelligence doesn't know just how badly they are outnumbered by the Umiak fleet, but some estimates go as high as ten to one.
Werra wrote:We'll see when we learn more about the Umiak nation. But they started the war prepared and with a massive, successful surprise invasion.
Yet despite that and all the ships and torpedoes they field, the war's been a draw. So they can't be that much more powerful than the Loroi, in which situation their waste of ships becomes very dangerous.
The nature of jump travel lends itself to natural strategic bottlenecks, and together with the lengthy time scales of system travel, this favors the defender if he knows where an attack is coming. In this environment, the Loroi Farseer ability is a huuuuuuuge advantage. While the Loroi can concentrate a large percentage of their forces in one location either on offense or defense, the Umiak have to keep the majority of their forces on defense spread across the border, lest they be surprised by an unexpected Loroi counterattack.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Zorg56 »

Arioch wrote:Ultra-massive megaships are not very effective when kinetic weapons do so much damage (and are screen-piercing and so can only be dodged) or when your opponent has weapons like the Wave-Loom. The Umiak have a few ultraheavy ships like the TTK, but they are very careful in how they use them, because those are expensive items to lose.

It's important to consider that the history of battleship warfare on Earth was a perpetual game of chicken, with opposing commanders afraid to commit their expensive big ships to battle for fear of losing them.

Even in it's own milieu, these mega star destroyers are silly. Let's not forget that the Executor was taken out by a single A-wing.
Considering said velocity of massdrivers "400 km/s", even if we increase said velocity ten times, it gives us 75 seconds to dodge at a distance of 1 light Second, so anything below 22500 meters long at 30G will be able to dodge that without any problems.
And since you have really big guns 1 light second is your main distance of battle.
Since we dont need planetary shield breaker superlaser thing even 5KM battleship will be able to carry enough ultraheavy battaries and hypershields to force Loroi to engage in close combat.


It was actually not a ships fault, but rather a command fault. What the point of having it if you are not gonna use it?

The only reason why A-wing was able to do this was that by this point main shield of Executor was allready taken out, didnt really changed anything, ship was doomed.
It was bombarded for 30 minutes with 40+ mon calamari starcruisers, several mediators battlecruisers and ~1,5k bombers. (Novelization)
Even for 20 KM thing it is just too much.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Arioch »

Zorg56 wrote:The only reason why A-wing was able to do this was that by this point main shield of Executor was allready taken out, didnt really changed anything, ship was doomed.
...and the main shields were taken out by what? (drumroll) A pair of X-wings.

My only point is... Star Wars is not a tactically consistent example to follow.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Zorg56 »

Arioch wrote:
Zorg56 wrote:The only reason why A-wing was able to do this was that by this point main shield of Executor was allready taken out, didnt really changed anything, ship was doomed.
...and the main shields were taken out by what? (drumroll) A pair of X-wings.
It was the bridge shield.
Main shield was taken out by Rebel MC cruisers bombardment, even in the movie you can clearly see how admiral Ackbar orders his entire fleet to focusfire executor.

P.s. i am not saying that you can just ram enemy with those ships, i am just saying that those ships can counter loroi advantages at long range, in close combat, ofcourse, bunch of torpedoes will finish the thing without problems.
Last edited by Zorg56 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Arioch »

Zorg56 wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Zorg56 wrote:The only reason why A-wing was able to do this was that by this point main shield of Executor was allready taken out, didnt really changed anything, ship was doomed.
...and the main shields were taken out by what? (drumroll) A pair of X-wings.
It was the bridge shield.
Main shield was taken out by Rebel MC cruisers bombardment, even in the movie you can clearly see how admiral Ackbar orders his entire fleet to focusfire executor.
If a ship that costs as much as an entire fleet can be taken out by an entire fleet, then it is an inferior use of those resources, since the whole thing is lost if the enemy focuses fire on it. Whereas the fleet loses only one ship at a time to focus fire.

The dreadnought principle only works if the larger vessel is mostly impervious to damage by smaller vessels.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Zorg56 »

Arioch wrote: If a ship that costs as much as an entire fleet can be taken out by an entire fleet, then it is an inferior use of those resources, since the whole thing is lost if the enemy focuses fire on it. Whereas the fleet loses only one ship at a time to focus fire.

The dreadnought principle only works if the larger vessel is mostly impervious to damage by smaller vessels.

The thing is, you are actually not supposed to take damage with your Battleship, you need to bombard enemy from distance using your advantage in Firepower-per-ton and range.
And if you escort are deastroyed you can either:

a) Run away before enemy will be able to do critical damage to you.

b) Finish survivors of the enemy fleet, because loosing ships means constantly loosing firepower. Cruiser with same firepower as a dreadnought will loose to dreadnought because each time ship dies you firepower decreases.

P.s. You can feel it in a lot of strategy games, closer to the theme- EaW Remake, placing few ISDs betwees SSD and enemy turns large piniata into chainsaw for enemy fleets.

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Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"

Post by Arioch »

Zorg56 wrote:
Arioch wrote: If a ship that costs as much as an entire fleet can be taken out by an entire fleet, then it is an inferior use of those resources, since the whole thing is lost if the enemy focuses fire on it. Whereas the fleet loses only one ship at a time to focus fire.

The dreadnought principle only works if the larger vessel is mostly impervious to damage by smaller vessels.
The thing is, you are actually not supposed to take damage with your Battleship, you need to bombard enemy from distance using your advantage in Firepower-per-ton and range.
And if you escort are deastroyed you can either:

a) Run away before enemy will be able to do critical damage to you.

b) Finish survivors of the enemy fleet, because loosing ships means constantly loosing firepower. Cruiser with same firepower as a dreadnought will loose to dreadnought because each time ship dies you firepower decreases.
If that were true, battleships would not need armor, and battlecruisers would have been the dominant capital ship type, since they have higher firepower per ton. But Jutland and other capital ship battles exposed this as a fallacy; the lightly armored battlecruisers got mauled. It's an even bigger fallacy with megaships, since they are not going to be faster than smaller vessels, and will not be able to dictate range of engagement.

In Star Wars (and I'm talking about the movies here), the guns seem relatively small in comparison to the ships (they're not even visible in most cases), and there's not much evidence that the weapons on larger vessels have superior range to those on smaller vessels; we don't see any examples of a larger ships being able to shoot at a smaller one that can't shoot back. And there's certainly no evidence that the larger vessels are faster than the smaller ones. The model they follow is more in the vein of Age of Sail navies in which the advantage of a larger hull is that it can carry more of the same guns, instead of the dreadnought model in which larger vessels carry larger guns.

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