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Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider" 
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Well, this storage vestibule is certainly bigger then I expected from what was shown of it in previous pages.
I thought it was large closet sized.

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Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:14 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
novius wrote:
And, we as the readers do know that the Soia preferred to make copies of existing species, improve on what they think has to be improved but for the rest, going with the maxim "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Quite the opposite in my opinion, as the Soia built their species in essence from scratch. They may have stuck to a pre existing surface design, but biochemistry and genetics is all original. So even a straight up copy is at the very least a translation.

novius wrote:
After all, Beryl was quick to assume that humans would be territorial of their women when the discussion came along that road the first time.
Territorial, that's a choice of words one would use for animals. Had a human woman asked that of an alien, the tone would have read a lot less friendly.

In regards to a possible hidden possessive behaviour of Loroi, we have to admit that males are not rare amongst the Loroi. Honestly, they have a lot of them, likely too many. At 1/8, every single Loroi female could easily be pregnant 24/7, male capacity wise. Since Loroi males also have very strong urges to procreate, their mate selection choices shouldn't matter that much. When in doubt, the Loroi can just wait like two days tops before the male says yes.
What limits female reproduction in Loroi is resources and manpower, both of which a polygamous group can better provide than monogamous pair-bonders, thanks to Loroi sexual dimorphism. Honestly, they'd do better with 20/1 female to male ratio in all likelihood.

@Zorg56
That's what I have also been wondering. Either the frontlines must be calm for weeks between assaults, or Bellarmine just got very unlucky.
Another question would be, how that third ship, the one that killed Bellarmine, got to where it was unnoticed through all that.1


Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:50 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
Quite the opposite in my opinion, as the Soia built their species in essence from scratch. They may have stuck to a pre existing surface design, but biochemistry and genetics is all original. So even a straight up copy is at the very least a translation.


Copy as in 'Take the ideas, not the code' is still a copy. Even if you just build something up from scratch and make it resemble the original it would get you into a copyright infringement lawsuit. :) The Soia did have a sophisticated toolbox with the Soia-Liron biology to create highly efficient organisms, but they lacked creativity to make a more efficient warrior/sentinel species. For example, a bony exoskeleton or horns would help in that regard.

And, just because males are not that rare in Loroi society - but still quite rare - doesn't mean that there would be no possessive behavior simply 'because there are enough of them to go around'. We humans come with a female to male ratio of roughly 1.06:1 in favor of males when left unchecked, but still members of both genders focus their interest on just a few members of the appropiate sex, not giving others an inkling of consideration.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:35 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Nah, even minor differences in hormone levels between humans have a huge impact on character and behaviour. We don't even know whether Loroi have any of our hormones or even just equivalents. Doesn't matter that the Soia copied the outside looks.

novius wrote:
We humans come with a female to male ratio of roughly 1.06:1 in favor of males when left unchecked, but still members of both genders focus their interest on just a few members of the appropiate sex, not giving others an inkling of consideration.

You can't be serious. That's a negligible disparity easily absorbed by male mortality rates. The numbers in terms of births for Loroi are also 1/10, female deaths just shift it to 1/8.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:42 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
You can't be serious. That's a negligible disparity easily absorbed by male mortality rates. The numbers in terms of births for Loroi are also 1/10, female deaths just shift it to 1/8.


Point in case, we humans have much less reasons for such competitive/territorial behavior, after all, there should be one man for every woman, or vice versa, right? Still, look around, look up 'adultery' and see my point proven.

Second, I think I collected more evidence lining the column "they are mostly similar, with only a few marked differences" rather than "they're completely alien, with only a few similarities". And, looking inside the story, Beryl seems to think the same from the very start. :)


Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:09 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
novius wrote:
Point in case, we humans have much less reasons for such competitive/territorial behavior, after all, there should be one man for every woman, or vice versa, right?

No, you are taking raw numbers of births and ignore everything else. You completely gloss over mortality rates for example. The reproductive situation for humans is completely different from the Lorois. So that there are valid strategies of cuckolding possible in humans tells us nothing. In fact it should be yet another point on which both species diverge massively.
A Loroi female has no incentive to go behind the back of a male for example, since the females are the ones providing resources. A Loroi male has no incentive to go behind a females back, as...how would that even work?..and the males investment is very little anyway.

I don't actually understand why you bring up adultery in humans as if that shows a human/Loroi similarity. We're dealing with a different species here anyway.

novius wrote:
I think I collected more evidence lining the column "they are mostly similar, with only a few marked differences" rather than "they're completely alien, with only a few similarities".

Must have skimmed those paragraphs. That the Soia didn't give them horns is at most evidence of absence of one difference, not evidence of similarity.
Loroi are products of a completely alien biology and we know of several key differences. Those are reproduction, ratio of male and females, roles of females for the species, telepathy. All I'm saying is that we should not expect Loroi to react or behave the same way human females would do.

novius wrote:
And, looking inside the story, Beryl seems to think the same from the very start.

We don't know that. That's my point. We interpret her behaviour and signals by our experiences with human women. Or more likely heresay, you nerds. But Loroi are not human.
Look up the halo effect and then ask yourself if you would interpret Beryls behaviour the same way if she was say...Mr Beryl.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:56 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
I see we will not agree on this point anytime soon. Like, ever, I think. For something different.

Despite their previous treatment, the Loroi do show him a lot of trust by leaving him completely alone with a number of crates filled with unrecognizable alien artifacts. Beryl even said so - even if she might not trust his character, she trusts his sense of self-preservation to not to activate a gadget that would place all of them in jeopardy.

But her logic has a slight flaw.

Assume Alex is a shell trick, then
  • He could have been indoctrinated by the Umiak or bioengineered to have no sense of self-preservation at all, in accordance to Umiak valuing the Hierarchy above everything.
  • A hypothetical gadget could serve as a beacon, together with an IFF code telling everyone to leave the shuttle alone and let the operative on it do his work
  • Or any device could serve to spy or sabotage the shuttle and everyone on board


Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:11 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
You forgot Mizol deviousness and Loroi's sense of duty to the cause.

Not enough time has passed for all Loroi presence within the system to have fled, a last ditch broadcast by the shuttle after the 'infiltrator' blows his cover would be enough warning as to the nature of the foe and would be of greater importance when compared to the survival of everyone else aboard the shuttle.

In short, the fact that Alex is 'alone' doesn't mean that he isn't constantly watched for any hints of betrayal, especially now that there is still time to warn the Empire about said betrayal.

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Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:26 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Lol @ the ladies. As for Talon, I'm not sure whether she's making her 'I am disappoint' or 'Y U no fun' face.

Werra wrote:
Beryl could be a red hering. Alex could possibly sense Fireblade on his own because of her strength and incontinence.

:shock:

I'm sorry, could you please repeat that again?


Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:38 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
I think Fireblade just burned in his brain, like when you look at the sun and close eyes, but mark is still there...

But if that the case, what is that light in the distance?
It is on the second frame as well, so it is not just random dot.
It cant be star neither since he cant see space around him.

Spoiler: show
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Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:56 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
@volrath77
Fireblade is "leaking" in her sleep. She can't keep it all in like the other grown-ups. That makes her a shunned bed neighbour in the dormitories on Tempest.

Spoiler: show
It's her PTSD dreams.



Didn't Beryl mention that technicians went over whatever gadgets Alex got from her? Then there shouldn't be any danger to the shuttle and she seems to trust Alex enough to give him some tools.
Doesn't she have charitable and trusting as a drawback in Gurps? Looks like Miss Tempo has to spank a Tozet.

@Zorg56
I think that's lense flare.

How was Fireblade burned into Alex mind the first time he saw her already? That's what I don't get about that theory.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:58 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Yeah, forgot about this one.
Using her power passively when he was asleep?
We dont know what happened when they took him aboard the ship, they may even try to break him right after.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:05 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
@volrath77
Fireblade is "leaking" in her sleep. She can't keep it all in like the other grown-ups. That makes her a shunned bed neighbour in the dormitories on Tempest.

Spoiler: show
It's her PTSD dreams.

Ah ok. I thought you were trying to go for 'innocence' or something else.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:27 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
Zorg56 wrote:
P.s. Noticed only now... How the hell Bellarmine get in there without anyone noticing? This place should be swarming with Umiak patrols and Loroi raid groups. Or this grey lines just old trade routes and there is way more jump possibilities? But even if there is dozens of systems not mapped here, it is still really strange. Espicially with Bellarmine acceleration.

That's what I have also been wondering. Either the frontlines must be calm for weeks between assaults, or Bellarmine just got very unlucky.

The map on page 59 is a two-dimensional overview of the Steppes; it doesn't show all the stars or the plane on which the Bellarmine arrived, and the lines represent routes rather than individual star jump links. The more detailed starmaps on pages 118-121 show different viewing angles of the same region, and do show all the stars and individual jump links. The view on page 118 in particular explicitly shows the Bellarmine's route to Naam in yellow. Human space is coreward and to the galactic North (higher on the z-axis) from the Steppes, and so the route came "down" from above, referring to the orientation of the p.59 map. It did not pass through either Loroi or Umiak territory along the way.

The Burning Steppes (the gap between Loroi and Umiak territory) is a no-man's land; neither side keeps bases here and there is not much in the way of patrol activity. The Loroi mostly depend on Farseers to keep tabs on enemy movement in the Steppes, and any Umiak patrols that enter the Steppes are likely to be attacked by Loroi raiders, so any Umiak reconnaissance must be in force. And neither side is expecting enemy forces to arrive from the galactic North direction.

Werra wrote:
We don't know that. That's my point. We interpret her behaviour and signals by our experiences with human women.

For example, you could alternately interpret Beryl's apparent "sexual interest" as scientific curiosity, and her apparent "jealousy" or "possessiveness" as motherly protectiveness of an alien subject who she is responsible for.

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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Arioch wrote:
neither side keeps bases here and there is not much in the way of patrol activity. The Loroi mostly depend on Farseers to keep tabs on enemy movement in the Steppes, and any Umiak patrols that enter the Steppes are likely to be attacked by Loroi raiders, so any Umiak reconnaissance must be in force. And neither side is expecting enemy forces to arrive from the galactic North direction.

So, uh...how are the Umiak even able to fight this war blind? Kikitik seems famous for having survived an assault twice. So there can't be that many ships getting back to Umiak space.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:39 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
With single minded determination, unparalleled focus on their goal and an inability to back down that borders on insanity. The Umiak are mass warfare specialists, they are rarely subtle and cunning but they are certainly able to keep throwing ships and bodies at their enemies.

The saying goes like this: Throw enough shit at the wall and some of it will stick.

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Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:44 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
We'll see when we learn more about the Umiak nation. But they started the war prepared and with a massive, succesful surprise invasion.
Yet despite that and all the ships and torpedoes they field, the war's been a draw. So they can't be that much more powerful than the Loroi, in which situation their waste of ships becomes very dangerous.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:56 am
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Werra wrote:
We'll see when we learn more about the Umiak nation. But they started the war prepared and with a massive, succesful surprise invasion.
Yet despite that and all the ships and torpedoes they field, the war's been a draw. So they can't be that much more powerful than the Loroi, in which situation their waste of ships becomes very dangerous.


You be underestimating the Loroi here. Given that FTL is extremely limited in this setting, the ability to sense enemy movements is an almost broken characteristic. To top it off, Loroi are good at warfare (both in space, having fought several violent conflicts) and on the ground (due to their unique, uncounterable and impossible to imitate psychic powers). The fact that the Loroi are still in the conflict, despite being, by all accounts, heavily outnumbered and outgunned (remember, the Umiak started off with plasma technology, while the Loroi were still using particle beams and lasers) should point to their talents at warfare.
The fact that the UMIAK haven't been squashed is also a testament to their almost irrational ability for self-sacrifice.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:25 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
dragoongfa wrote:
With single minded determination, unparalleled focus on their goal and an inability to back down that borders on insanity. The Umiak are mass warfare specialists, they are rarely subtle and cunning but they are certainly able to keep throwing ships and bodies at their enemies.

The saying goes like this: Throw enough shit at the wall and some of it will stick.


Throw wave after wave of your own men at the enemy, and...
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Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:32 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Mr.Tucker wrote:
You be underestimating the Loroi here. Given that FTL is extremely limited in this setting, the ability to sense enemy movements is an almost broken characteristic. To top it off, Loroi are good at warfare (both in space, having fought several violent conflicts) and on the ground (due to their unique, uncounterable and impossible to imitate psychic powers). The fact that the Loroi are still in the conflict, despite being, by all accounts, heavily outnumbered and outgunned (remember, the Umiak started off with plasma technology, while the Loroi were still using particle beams and lasers) should point to their talents at warfare.
The fact that the UMIAK haven't been squashed is also a testament to their almost irrational ability for self-sacrifice.

Fully agree with you. The Umiak are a fearsome enemy, to be sure. There isn't any other species in the setting that could take them on. This war decides who becomes master of Orion.
Both species are extremely good at warfare, but Loroi have advantages that force the Umiak to make horrible decisions in my opinion. Currently my money is on the Loroi to win.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:54 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
With their industrial capacity, Umiak probably can just throw at loroi something like this, and it will be, pretty much, over.
Spoiler: show
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Dosent even need to engage Loroi directly, hold defensive formation around it when it blasts enemy ships and, probably, planets across the system.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:17 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
If the Umiak had the energy source capable to power that thing and make it jump then they would have already won.

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Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
hi hi

The Loroi war effort relies so heavily on farseers that Clicky-27's boasting about how the Loroi are doomed, now that their big advantage is gone, is not without merit. Unless someone (possibly Alex) comes up with a brilliant plan, I don't see the Loroi winning this war. Certainly, if they try to keep doing what they've been doing, they're going to be in big trouble.

Edit: Also, after taking some time to look, I think the writing on the wall cylinders says, timon, which translates into pressure, although it is hard to make out some of the letters.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:10 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Ultra-massive megaships are not very effective when kinetic weapons do so much damage (and are screen-piercing and so must be dodged) or when your opponent has weapons like the Wave-Loom. The Umiak have a few ultraheavy ships like the TTK, but they are very careful in how they use them, because those are expensive items to lose, even for the Umiak.

Consider that the history of battleship warfare on Earth was a perpetual game of chicken, with opposing commanders afraid to commit their expensive big ships to battle for fear of losing them.

Even in it's own milieu, these mega star destroyers are silly. Let's not forget that the Executor was taken out by a single A-wing.

Werra wrote:
Arioch wrote:
neither side keeps bases here and there is not much in the way of patrol activity. The Loroi mostly depend on Farseers to keep tabs on enemy movement in the Steppes, and any Umiak patrols that enter the Steppes are likely to be attacked by Loroi raiders, so any Umiak reconnaissance must be in force. And neither side is expecting enemy forces to arrive from the galactic North direction.

So, uh...how are the Umiak even able to fight this war blind? Kikitik seems famous for having survived an assault twice. So there can't be that many ships getting back to Umiak space.

1. Their border defenses have to be extensive and multi-layered. The vast majority of Umiak fleets sit on defense.
2. Defense through offense. If you constantly pressure the enemy by making them defend their own territory, that makes it difficult for them to attack your territory. Since these are largely suicide attacks, the Umiak use older ships (and crews) that have been rotting on defense for 10+ years to the point where their readiness is starting to suffer.

This is only possible if you can substantially out-produce and outnumber the enemy. Loroi intelligence doesn't know just how badly they are outnumbered by the Umiak fleet, but some estimates go as high as ten to one.

Werra wrote:
We'll see when we learn more about the Umiak nation. But they started the war prepared and with a massive, successful surprise invasion.
Yet despite that and all the ships and torpedoes they field, the war's been a draw. So they can't be that much more powerful than the Loroi, in which situation their waste of ships becomes very dangerous.

The nature of jump travel lends itself to natural strategic bottlenecks, and together with the lengthy time scales of system travel, this favors the defender if he knows where an attack is coming. In this environment, the Loroi Farseer ability is a huuuuuuuge advantage. While the Loroi can concentrate a large percentage of their forces in one location either on offense or defense, the Umiak have to keep the majority of their forces on defense spread across the border, lest they be surprised by an unexpected Loroi counterattack.

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Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:18 pm
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Post Re: Page 151 Discussion: "We will wait, Outsider"
Arioch wrote:
Ultra-massive megaships are not very effective when kinetic weapons do so much damage (and are screen-piercing and so can only be dodged) or when your opponent has weapons like the Wave-Loom. The Umiak have a few ultraheavy ships like the TTK, but they are very careful in how they use them, because those are expensive items to lose.

It's important to consider that the history of battleship warfare on Earth was a perpetual game of chicken, with opposing commanders afraid to commit their expensive big ships to battle for fear of losing them.

Even in it's own milieu, these mega star destroyers are silly. Let's not forget that the Executor was taken out by a single A-wing.


Considering said velocity of massdrivers "400 km/s", even if we increase said velocity ten times, it gives us 75 seconds to dodge at a distance of 1 light Second, so anything below 22500 meters long at 30G will be able to dodge that without any problems.
And since you have really big guns 1 light second is your main distance of battle.
Since we dont need planetary shield breaker superlaser thing even 5KM battleship will be able to carry enough ultraheavy battaries and hypershields to force Loroi to engage in close combat.


It was actually not a ships fault, but rather a command fault. What the point of having it if you are not gonna use it?

The only reason why A-wing was able to do this was that by this point main shield of Executor was allready taken out, didnt really changed anything, ship was doomed.
It was bombarded for 30 minutes with 40+ mon calamari starcruisers, several mediators battlecruisers and ~1,5k bombers. (Novelization)
Even for 20 KM thing it is just too much.


Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:57 pm
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